How many ==========

Have no idea about the answer to your question unfortunately.🙂 But if you get this land, don't
forget about the campsites and stage for music festivals!🙂

Peace, Pilgrim

"M&M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land with 1000 feet in elevation
changes at 8500 feet above sea level . This

"M&M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land with 1000 feet in elevation
changes at 8500 feet above sea level . This land has tons of varying degrees of terrain ,a variety
of forest , meadows cliffs , waterfalls , canyons , lakes streams , wildlife . I am comming into
some money and I am considering purchasing this property . I am also keeping this location secret
until the deal is in the bag . Maybe one or two people in AMB may have an Idea of the location ,
but I will not reveal the location , even under torture 😉

2000 acres...

Ok so given a nice winding path, you can have approximately 72 miles of trail per acre (with careful
management), and let's say that 30% is left alone for some straights, wildlife, dirt jumping, etc.
If you have 1000 feet of elevation, that's a 20% increase in area.

(2000 * 72 * 70%) (20% + 1) = 120960 miles of trails.

If you ever fancy riding 1/2 way to the moon, you can train in your own property! I say buy it.

Dear Mike Vandeman, Take your Ph.D. and shove it. I don't want to listen to your "whinging."

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

"M&M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land with 1000 feet in elevation
changes at 8500 feet above sea level . This land has tons of varying degrees of terrain ,a variety
of forest , meadows cliffs , waterfalls , canyons , lakes streams , wildlife . I am comming into
some money and I am considering purchasing this property . I am also keeping this location secret
until the deal is in the bag . Maybe one or two people in AMB may have an Idea of the location ,
but I will not reveal the location , even under torture 😉

M&M

Phew, it's a toughie.....best pass it over to Mike Vanderman for an accurate unbiast response.....
Mike?...over to you.......

Dave

(bugger!!, what have I done??....sorry guys :-( )

M&M said:

How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land <snip>

Well, we have a 2 city block space that we've measured 7 miles of trail on. a map would look like a
disorginized spider web though, and it's not exactly an imba approved system.

[email hidden] (M&M) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land with 1000 feet in elevation
changes at 8500 feet above sea level . This land has tons of varying degrees of terrain ,a variety
of forest , meadows cliffs , waterfalls , canyons , lakes streams , wildlife . I am comming into
some money and I am considering purchasing this property . I am also keeping this location secret
until the deal is in the bag . Maybe one or two people in AMB may have an Idea of the location ,
but I will not reveal the location , even under torture 😉

M&M

If it's out West, I'll help build.

JD

"M&M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land with 1000 feet in elevation
changes at 8500 feet above sea level . This land has tons of varying degrees of terrain ,a variety
of forest , meadows cliffs , waterfalls , canyons , lakes streams , wildlife . I am comming into
some money and I am considering purchasing this property . I am also keeping this location secret
until the deal is in the bag . Maybe one or two people in AMB may have an Idea of the location ,
but I will not reveal the location , even under torture 😉

M&M

Depends a lot on the terrain. You want to leave some space and not too many intersections, and have
trails ranging from fast, flowing, swoopy stuff to twisty stuff to technical stuff. And some
fireroads for access and limping out after you tried the technical stuff 😉

I'd say easily a couple hundred miles worth though if you design it well, although the building will
be a [censored] for that much trail!

Jon Bond

Rich <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

M&M said:

How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land <snip>

Well, we have a 2 city block space that we've measured 7 miles of trail on. a map would look like
a disorginized spider web though, and it's not exactly an imba approved system.

I want to keep IMBA out of this one due to the fact they have the tendancy to 'over sanitize'
construction ( from personal experience in several areas of the country and I have seen how well
the locals have constructed their trails over cow paths without IMBA), although IMBA's methods on
how and where a trail should be laid out are very good as far as keeping erosion at bay ( I may
consult with IMBA on this part ). These trails would be open on a Permit Only basis for locals and
their guest ( free and anually ) and open to AMBers who happen to be in the area (easier to monitor
traffic and keep the trails from being overused ). Since this property is considered to be in snow
country , the trails would be open from May to September , perfect for when the weather is way too
hot to ride in the lower altitudes.

I plan on having 2 access roads that can be used as 'Bail out Points' or emergency fire and
rescue . The meadows are perfectly and stratigically located should any helicopter rescue be
required . I will have a sign in/sign out book at the trail head so it can be checked to make
sure everyone got back safely . Due to the nature of the wild life , I will request No Solo
Riding (Mountain Lions , Bears , Bobcats ,Cougars and other possible critters that may find a
solo cyclist to be a tasty snack ).

Topo and trail maps will be offered at cost . I will ask for local volunteers to help out in the
construction and maybe get the local bike shops involved .

That is , when this is a done deal .

M&M ( sounds like waaayyy too much work )

[email hidden] (JD) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (M&M) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land with 1000 feet in elevation
changes at 8500 feet above sea level . This land has tons of varying degrees of terrain ,a
variety of forest , meadows cliffs , waterfalls , canyons , lakes streams , wildlife . I am
comming into some money and I am considering purchasing this property . I am also keeping this
location secret until the deal is in the bag . Maybe one or two people in AMB may have an Idea
of the location , but I will not reveal the location , even under torture 😉

M&M

If it's out West, I'll help build.

JD

Your sooo close , JD . Your already in .

M&M

"Jon Bond" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"M&M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land with 1000 feet in elevation
changes at 8500 feet above sea level . This land has tons of varying degrees of terrain ,a
variety of forest , meadows cliffs , waterfalls , canyons , lakes streams , wildlife . I am
comming into some money and I am considering purchasing this property . I am also keeping this
location secret until the deal is in the bag . Maybe one or two people in AMB may have an Idea
of the location , but I will not reveal the location , even under torture 😉

M&M

Depends a lot on the terrain. You want to leave some space and not too many intersections, and
have trails ranging from fast, flowing, swoopy stuff to twisty stuff to technical stuff. And some
fireroads for access and limping out after you tried the technical stuff 😉

I'd say easily a couple hundred miles worth though if you design it well, although the building
will be a [censored] for that much trail!

Jon Bond

Maybe several small cabins supplied with running water , a pot bellied stove , and oxygen tanks
for the deprived near-sea level AMBers . I'm figuring 500-700 possible miles for all skill levels
and an area for North Shore style riders ( Ladders , Teeters - for the Canadian AMBers . And for
UK AMBers , a blighty , rainy area to make them feel at home ) 😉.

This area is pretty pristine and I want to KEEP the developers away .

M&M

M&M scribbled :> Maybe several small cabins supplied with running water , a pot

Quoted message said:

bellied stove , and oxygen tanks for the deprived near-sea level AMBers . I'm figuring 500-700
possible miles for all skill levels and an area for North Shore style riders ( Ladders ,
Teeters - for the Canadian AMBers . And for UK AMBers , a blighty , rainy area to make them
feel at home ) 😉.

This area is pretty pristine and I want to KEEP the developers away .

how do you propose to keep hikers and atv-ers out? ( seriously)

penny

M&M said:

Rich <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

M&M said:

How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land <snip>

Well, we have a 2 city block space that we've measured 7 miles of trail on. a map would look like
a disorginized spider web though, and it's not exactly an imba approved system.

I want to keep IMBA out of this one due to the fact they have the tendancy to 'over sanitize'
construction ( from personal experience in several areas of the country and I have seen how well
the locals have constructed their trails over cow paths without IMBA), although IMBA's methods on
how and where a trail should be laid out are very good as far as keeping erosion at bay ( I may
consult with IMBA on this part ). These trails would be open on a Permit Only basis for locals
and their guest ( free and anually ) and open to AMBers who happen to be in the area (easier to
monitor traffic and keep the trails from being overused ). Since this property is considered to
be in snow country , the trails would be open from May to September , perfect for when the
weather is way too hot to ride in the lower altitudes.

I plan on having 2 access roads that can be used as 'Bail out Points' or emergency fire and
rescue . The meadows are perfectly and stratigically located should any helicopter rescue be
required . I will have a sign in/sign out book at the trail head so it can be checked to make
sure everyone got back safely . Due to the nature of the wild life , I will request No Solo
Riding (Mountain Lions , Bears , Bobcats ,Cougars and other possible critters that may find a
solo cyclist to be a tasty snack ).

Topo and trail maps will be offered at cost . I will ask for local volunteers to help out in the
construction and maybe get the local bike shops involved .

That is , when this is a done deal .

M&M ( sounds like waaayyy too much work )

There are lots of local organizations who would probably help and have access to tools and a large
volunteer pool. Trails 2000 is one here in Durango. This sounds like a good idea if you have the
means, interest and experience. No offense intended, but you do not sound like a mountain local.
Your comment regarding solo riding is filled with error, mountain lions and cougars are the same
thing and bob cats are absolutly no threat. The biggest threat in solo riding is yourself, getting
injured because of a crash; pumas (another name for mountain lions) and black bears are very rarely
a threat, even less so in remote "pristine" areas like you are describing. What gives 🙂

--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado (remove ".nospam" to reply)

Craig Brossman scribbled :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There are lots of local organizations who would probably help and have

access to tools and a large volunteer pool. Trails 2000 is one here in Durango. This sounds like a
good idea if you have the means, interest and experience. No offense intended, but you do not
sound like a mountain local. Your comment regarding solo riding is filled with error, mountain
lions and cougars are the same thing and bob cats are absolutly no threat. The biggest threat in
solo riding is yourself, getting injured because of a crash; pumas (another name for mountain
lions) and black bears are very rarely a threat, even less so in remote "pristine" areas like you
are describing. What gives 🙂

and cougars, IF they go after people seem to like kids and small vulnerable pets the best.

Penny

Craig Brossman <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

M&M said:

Rich <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

M&M wrote:

>How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land <snip>

Well, we have a 2 city block space that we've measured 7 miles of trail on. a map would look
like a disorginized spider web though, and it's not exactly an imba approved system.

I want to keep IMBA out of this one due to the fact they have the tendancy to 'over sanitize'
construction ( from personal experience in several areas of the country and I have seen how
well the locals have constructed their trails over cow paths without IMBA), although IMBA's
methods on how and where a trail should be laid out are very good as far as keeping erosion at
bay ( I may consult with IMBA on this part ). These trails would be open on a Permit Only basis
for locals and their guest ( free and anually ) and open to AMBers who happen to be in the area
(easier to monitor traffic and keep the trails from being overused ). Since this property is
considered to be in snow country , the trails would be open from May to September , perfect for
when the weather is way too hot to ride in the lower altitudes.

I plan on having 2 access roads that can be used as 'Bail out Points' or emergency fire and
rescue . The meadows are perfectly and stratigically located should any helicopter rescue be
required . I will have a sign in/sign out book at the trail head so it can be checked to make
sure everyone got back safely . Due to the nature of the wild life , I will request No Solo
Riding (Mountain Lions , Bears , Bobcats ,Cougars and other possible critters that may find a
solo cyclist to be a tasty snack ).

Topo and trail maps will be offered at cost . I will ask for local volunteers to help out in
the construction and maybe get the local bike shops involved .

That is , when this is a done deal .

M&M ( sounds like waaayyy too much work )

There are lots of local organizations who would probably help and have access to tools and a large
volunteer pool. Trails 2000 is one here in Durango.

That is part of the plan . I plan on a fly over and satillite overview (weather permitting )
before the deal is done.

Quoted message said:

This sounds like a good idea if you have the means, interest and experience. No offense intended,
but you do not sound like a mountain local. Your comment regarding solo riding is filled with
error, mountain lions and cougars are the same thing and bob cats are absolutly no threat.

I knew about the cougar & mountain lion thingy 😉 Just sounded creepy-scary. = Never said I was a
local. Been a visitor , and now I want to return and stay.

Quoted message said:

The biggest threat in solo riding is yourself, getting injured because of a crash; pumas (another
name for mountain lions) and black bears are very rarely a threat, even less so in remote
"pristine" areas like you are describing.

I've experienced black bears and know personally that most are not a threat. And I realize I still
have a lot to learn about living in the mountains , but then that is part of the adventure and I
am willing to share that with others including the locals .

Quoted message said:

What gives 🙂

Will get you up there too , Greg , if you have the time and it's OK .

M&M

"Penny S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

M&M scribbled :> Maybe several small cabins supplied with running water , a pot

Quoted message said:

bellied stove , and oxygen tanks for the deprived near-sea level AMBers . I'm figuring 500-700
possible miles for all skill levels and an area for North Shore style riders ( Ladders ,
Teeters - for the Canadian AMBers . And for UK AMBers , a blighty , rainy area to make them
feel at home ) 😉.

This area is pretty pristine and I want to KEEP the developers away .

how do you propose to keep hikers and atv-ers out? ( seriously)

penny

By keeping the area a secret ? I haven't given that much consideration . Everything is in
proposal right now and I guess the Lawyers and the Realtor will help me hammer that out when the
time comes .

M&M

M&M scribbled :>>

how do you propose to keep hikers and atv-ers out? ( seriously)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

penny

By keeping the area a secret ? I haven't given that much consideration . Everything is in
proposal right now and I guess the Lawyers and the Realtor will help me hammer that out when the
time comes .

Good luck with that. I think you'd have to go much farther than "secret". Even with gated access for
the privileged few, there seems to always be someone who has to go where they aren't welcome, just
because they can. What happens when the secret gets told to a friend, and then another and then
another? MIght it be, "invitation only"?

Are you envisioning something like the Yellowstone club without the luxury price tag and luxury
amenities, for bikers? You could call it "Vandeman Acres" ;-) theyellowstoneclub.comtheyellowstoneclub.comOpen ↗

Understand, I'm not trying to flame you. I think this is a great idea. But... there are layers upon
layers of issues that will rear their ugly heads. Here's one, what about existing trails that have
been already used historically by others than mountain bikers...that stuff has a tendency to stand
up in court when land owners want to close off access to something that's been used by the public
for XX years. Or, FS roads that cross the land: Carole King ( the singer) had been fighting with the
feds for years to try and prevent the public from crossing her spread in the mountains to access
USFS land.

you get the idea.... keep us posted!!

[email hidden] (M&M) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Penny S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

M&M scribbled :> Maybe several small cabins supplied with running water , a pot

Quoted message said:

bellied stove , and oxygen tanks for the deprived near-sea level AMBers . I'm figuring 500-700
possible miles for all skill levels and an area for North Shore style riders ( Ladders ,
Teeters - for the Canadian AMBers . And for UK AMBers , a blighty , rainy area to make them
feel at home ) 😉.

This area is pretty pristine and I want to KEEP the developers away .

how do you propose to keep hikers and atv-ers out? ( seriously)

penny

By keeping the area a secret ? I haven't given that much consideration . Everything is in
proposal right now and I guess the Lawyers and the Realtor will help me hammer that out when the
time comes .

M&M

Hikers aren't much of a problem and I have seen some very effective anti-atv designs in trails and
at trailheads.

JD

JD scribbled :

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hikers aren't much of a problem and I have seen some very effective anti-atv designs in trails and
at trailheads.

JD

well. you'd know since you have implied proximity. Me, just shooting off at the mouth, as usual.

penny

rrrr... too hot to ride until close to dusk...

M&M said...

Quoted message said:

How many miles of MTB trails can be built on 2000+ acres of land with 1000 feet in elevation
changes at 8500 feet above sea level . This land has tons of varying degrees of terrain ,a variety
of forest , meadows cliffs , waterfalls , canyons , lakes streams , wildlife . I am comming into
some money and I am considering purchasing this property . I am also keeping this location secret
until the deal is in the bag . Maybe one or two people in AMB may have an Idea of the location ,
but I will not reveal the location , even under torture 😉

By my calculations you could get over 250 miles in if the trails were 50' apart, about 45 miles in
if they were 300' apart. 45 miles would make a hell of a trail.

"Penny S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

M&M scribbled :>>

how do you propose to keep hikers and atv-ers out? ( seriously)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

penny

By keeping the area a secret ? I haven't given that much consideration . Everything is in
proposal right now and I guess the Lawyers and the Realtor will help me hammer that out when
the time comes .

Good luck with that. I think you'd have to go much farther than "secret". Even with gated access
for the privileged few, there seems to always be someone who has to go where they aren't welcome,
just because they can. What happens when the secret gets told to a friend, and then another and
then another? MIght it be, "invitation only"?

Are you envisioning something like the Yellowstone club without the luxury price tag and luxury
amenities, for bikers? You could call it "Vandeman Acres" ;-) theyellowstoneclub.comtheyellowstoneclub.comOpen ↗

Understand, I'm not trying to flame you. I think this is a great idea. But... there are layers
upon layers of issues that will rear their ugly heads. Here's one, what about existing trails that
have been already used historically by others than mountain bikers...that stuff has a tendency to
stand up in court when land owners want to close off access to something that's been used by the
public for XX years. Or, FS roads that cross the land: Carole King ( the singer) had been fighting
with the feds for years to try and prevent the public from crossing her spread in the mountains to
access USFS land.

you get the idea.... keep us posted!!

Well , penny , I did give this some thought . I don't think hikers are going to be a problem .
Heck , I'll probably be one of them . There are 5 lakes and some assorted streams on the property
and I might take along a fishing pole or kyak on one of the lakes on a lazy day when I take a day
off from riding. No Exclusive Club is intended and I really don't want to keep the general public
away , just keep a monitor on the situation to keep the trails from being overused . If there are
FS right-of-way roads , I don't have a problem with that . As far as ATVers go , most in the area
are somewhat respectful and will stay away when requested. There are irresponsible people out
there , although very few , and I would like to keep some sort of a handle on that . It's called
Land Management and there are people in the area who are more than willing to help advise and
suggest ways to cope . You have brought up some very good and interesting points and have giving
me a lot to think about .

Na , Penny ,your not flaming me . You have come up with some good substantial and usful feedback .
After all , that is what makes AMB what it is , along with the humor , ride reports ===Etc .

M&M