How many ==========

M&M scribbled :

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Well , penny , I did give this some thought . I don't think hikers

are going to be a problem . Heck , I'll probably be one of them . There are 5 lakes and some
assorted streams on the property and I might take along a fishing pole or kyak on one of the lakes
on a lazy day when I take a day off from riding. No Exclusive Club is intended and I really don't
want to keep the general public away , just keep a monitor on the situation to keep the trails
from being overused

If

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there are FS right-of-way roads , I don't have a problem with that . As far as ATVers go , most in
the area are somewhat respectful and will stay away when requested. There are irresponsible people
out there , although very few , and I would like to keep some sort of a handle on that . It's
called Land Management and there are people in the area who are more than willing to help advise
and suggest ways to cope . You have brought up some very good and interesting points and have
giving me a lot to think about .

Around here, ( Id/WA) people pretty much think they can do whatever they want, and they like to cut
fence, go around gates, cut down tree, dump trash, make multiple fire rings, and treat private land
like they do the public land. They can be standing 20 feet a way from a "private land" sign and say
they didn't see it because it's not in front of their face. Or, they just use the signs for target
practice. I am ranting about an obnoxious minority, but it's a reality... for every outdoor user
that respects and cares for the land, there's going to be one that dumps his Bud cans in the middle
of a meadow from the back of an ATV. I'm convinced that ATV users are some of the worst culprits
anyway. There's a huge problem around here about 4 wheelers making trails wider ( former
singletrack and hiking) by forcing their way down the trails, crushing the vegetation and so on.

if in your region there is more of a tradition of respect that you can tap into, I am happy for
you. </rant>

Penny

M&M said:

Will get you up there too , Greg , if you have the time and it's OK .

M&M

Craig, and it would be my pleasure.
--
Craig Brossman, Durango Colorado (remove ".nospam" to reply)

Craig Brossman <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

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M&M said:

Will get you up there too , Greg , if you have the time and it's OK .

M&M

Craig, and it would be my pleasure.

OOps! My bad , Craig , for not checking the spelling .

M&M

"M&M" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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"Penny S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

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M&M scribbled :>>

how do you propose to keep hikers and atv-ers out? ( seriously)

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>
> penny

By keeping the area a secret ? I haven't given that much consideration . Everything is in
proposal right now and I guess the Lawyers and the Realtor will help me hammer that out when
the time comes .

Good luck with that. I think you'd have to go much farther than

"secret".

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Even with gated access for the privileged few, there seems to always be someone who has to go
where they aren't welcome, just because they can.

What

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happens when the secret gets told to a friend, and then another and then another? MIght it be,
"invitation only"?

Are you envisioning something like the Yellowstone club without the

luxury

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price tag and luxury amenities, for bikers? You could call it "Vandeman Acres" ;-)
theyellowstoneclub.comtheyellowstoneclub.comOpen ↗

Understand, I'm not trying to flame you. I think this is a great idea. But... there are layers
upon layers of issues that will rear their ugly heads. Here's one, what about existing trails
that have been already

used

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historically by others than mountain bikers...that stuff has a tendency

to

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stand up in court when land owners want to close off access to something that's been used by the
public for XX years. Or, FS roads that cross

the

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land: Carole King ( the singer) had been fighting with the feds for

years to

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try and prevent the public from crossing her spread in the mountains to access USFS land.

you get the idea.... keep us posted!!

Well , penny , I did give this some thought . I don't think hikers are going to be a problem .
Heck , I'll probably be one of them . There are 5 lakes and some assorted streams on the
property and I might take along a fishing pole or kyak on one of the lakes on a lazy day when I
take a day off from riding. No Exclusive Club is intended and I really don't want to keep the
general public away , just keep a monitor on the situation to keep the trails from being
overused . If there are FS right-of-way roads , I don't have a problem with that . As far as
ATVers go , most in the area are somewhat respectful and will stay away when requested. There
are irresponsible people out there , although very few , and I would like to keep some sort of
a handle on that . It's called Land Management and there are people in the area who are more
than willing to help advise and suggest ways to cope . You have brought up some very good and
interesting points and have giving me a lot to think about .

Na , Penny ,your not flaming me . You have come up with some good substantial and usful feedback
. After all , that is what makes AMB what it is , along with the humor , ride reports ===Etc .

M&M

Penny has definitely got a good point. I know from experience that access by, um, "undesirables" on
private land like yours is a problem. And my experience comes from land in a relatively remote and
uninhabited place! Interestingly, somehow it seems that the more deserted a place is, the more the
undesirables want to access it. And if not now, what about in 10 or 15 years time?

I don't know the specifics but it's quite possible that gates, fences, barriers and live-in Land
Managers are going to be a virtual necessity within a few years. I can see some sort of fee being
necessary to maintain the area if the trail become that good and you allow a lot of people access. I
can't see how you can produce something like great mtb trails that won't become popular and desired.
It might take a few years but word will get out if they are good trails. That means that you will
have an issue with who and who isn't allowed access. Even if it remains basically private, you'll
need a big fence.

I'm curious too. Potentially you could spend a lot of money building good trails. Have you got a
heap of cash to blow on something like this, or will you need to introduce a user-pays system and
allow more people access?

It's definitely something that you should think carefully about.
--
Westie