How much play is normal from an aheadset?



D

Duncan Smith

Guest
Pretty standard kit, 1 1/8 threadless forks, headset pressed onto
frame, star-fangled nut an inch or so beneath the fork's rim, the top
bolt tightened with a little thread-lock and then the two side bolts.

Don't know if this is a problem or just a ****le, but every 80m or so,
there's a definite play from the headset (maybe a mm, or close to two)
that's noticeable forwards and backwards in-line with the top-tube
(when pinching the top-collar and rocking the bike back and forth on
the brake). Maybe it's nothing to worry about - although it seems
quite pronounced. The encouraging bit is, if I trap the front wheel
between my feet and try and twist the bars they wont budge - which
seems like the important bit.

Tightening it all up makes it better, but only for another 80m or
so.

A common characteristic, or something I should let an LBS take a quick
squiz at?

Thanks,

Duncan
 
On 15 Sep, 22:25, Duncan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
> Don't know if this is a problem or just a ****le, but every 80m or so,
> there's a definite play from the headset (maybe a mm, or close to two)
> that's noticeable forwards and backwards in-line with the top-tube
> (when pinching the top-collar and rocking the bike back and forth on
> the brake). Maybe it's nothing to worry about - although it seems
> quite pronounced.


I'd worry if it were rocking that much. 1 or 2 mm is quite a lot IMHO.

The encouraging bit is, if I trap the front wheel
> between my feet and try and twist the bars they wont budge - which
> seems like the important bit.


Well, your bars aren't about to fall off but lack of twisting doesn't
mean the headset isn't too loose.

> Tightening it all up makes it better, but only for another 80m or so.


Hmm

> A common characteristic, or something I should let an LBS take a quick squiz at?


Not common. If you can't work it out I'd say the squiz is a good
idea.
 
Duncan Smith wrote:
> Pretty standard kit, 1 1/8 threadless forks, headset pressed onto
> frame, star-fangled nut an inch or so beneath the fork's rim, the top
> bolt tightened with a little thread-lock and then the two side bolts.


I think that you misunderstand how the threadless nut
system works. You should not be using thread lock on the
top bolt, this is only used to initially tension the
cones, before the two side bolts clamp the handle bars on.

You should not keep just tightening the side-bolts, this
could cause you to strip a thread.

You need to loosen the side bolts, tighten the top bolt a
nudge, then tighten the side bolts again and see what happens.
 
Duncan Smith pretended :

>
> Don't know if this is a problem or just a ****le, but every 80m or so,
> there's a definite play from the headset (maybe a mm, or close to two)
> that's noticeable forwards and backwards in-line with the top-tube
> (when pinching the top-collar and rocking the bike back and forth on
> the brake).


[snipped]

It shouldn't be doing this; I'd get it checked if you're not confident
yourself. Is the headset free running after it's been tightened? If it
seems to be a little tight I'd be looking for poorly fitted / damaged /
mismatched components. All sorts of things could have caused this -
loose fork crown race, badly fitted head cups, even a bearing race
fitted upside down (although you'd probably have been a bit more aware
of that one!)

--
Simon
 
On Sep 15, 11:06 pm, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
> Duncan Smith wrote:
> > Pretty standard kit, 1 1/8 threadless forks, headset pressed onto
> > frame, star-fangled nut an inch or so beneath the fork's rim, the top
> > bolt tightened with a little thread-lock and then the two side bolts.

>
> I think that you misunderstand how the threadless nut
> system works. You should not be using thread lock on the
> top bolt, this is only used to initially tension the
> cones, before the two side bolts clamp the handle bars on.
>
> You should not keep just tightening the side-bolts, this
> could cause you to strip a thread.
>
> You need to loosen the side bolts, tighten the top bolt a
> nudge, then tighten the side bolts again and see what happens.


That's okay, that's what I've been doing - just thought the thread-loc
couldn't hurt as well, as I'm already having trouble in that area
anyway. I'll try it once more without now...

Thanks,

Duncan
 
On Sep 16, 7:16 am, Duncan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 15, 11:06 pm, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Duncan Smith wrote:
> > > Pretty standard kit, 1 1/8 threadless forks, headset pressed onto
> > > frame, star-fangled nut an inch or so beneath the fork's rim, the top
> > > bolt tightened with a little thread-lock and then the two side bolts.

>
> > I think that you misunderstand how the threadless nut
> > system works. You should not be using thread lock on the
> > top bolt, this is only used to initially tension the
> > cones, before the two side bolts clamp the handle bars on.

>
> > You should not keep just tightening the side-bolts, this
> > could cause you to strip a thread.

>
> > You need to loosen the side bolts, tighten the top bolt a
> > nudge, then tighten the side bolts again and see what happens.

>
> That's okay, that's what I've been doing - just thought the thread-loc
> couldn't hurt as well, as I'm already having trouble in that area
> anyway. I'll try it once more without now...


Based on how aheadsets work, your description doesn't make much sense
to me. Try to work out what is actually working loose.

James
 
On Sep 15, 11:12 pm, Simon D <[email protected]> wrote:
> Duncan Smith pretended :
>
>
>
> > Don't know if this is a problem or just a ****le, but every 80m or so,
> > there's a definite play from the headset (maybe a mm, or close to two)
> > that's noticeable forwards and backwards in-line with the top-tube
> > (when pinching the top-collar and rocking the bike back and forth on
> > the brake).

>
> [snipped]
>
> It shouldn't be doing this; I'd get it checked if you're not confident
> yourself. Is the headset free running after it's been tightened? If it
> seems to be a little tight I'd be looking for poorly fitted / damaged /
> mismatched components. All sorts of things could have caused this -
> loose fork crown race, badly fitted head cups, even a bearing race
> fitted upside down (although you'd probably have been a bit more aware
> of that one!)
>
> --
> Simon


Not too tight no, just loose between the two halfs of the top collar.
Head cup fitting could've been an issue - it was a new frame and
headset and took the LBS only a couple of minutes to fit - is that
enough to ream and face properly, etc.?
 
Duncan Smith formulated on Saturday :
> On Sep 15, 11:06 pm, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> I think that you misunderstand how the threadless nut
>> system works. You should not be using thread lock on the
>> top bolt, this is only used to initially tension the
>> cones, before the two side bolts clamp the handle bars on.

>
> That's okay, that's what I've been doing - just thought the thread-loc
> couldn't hurt as well, as I'm already having trouble in that area
> anyway. I'll try it once more without now...
>


The thread lock simply isn't relevant - not using it won't help you any
more than using it has. As Martin's pointed out, it's the two side
bolts that lock the headset. If the headset's coming loose without
those two side bolts being tightened, there's something wrong with the
headset assembly itself, the head tube or the forks - not the headset
adjustment mechanism.

--
Simon
 
Duncan Smith wrote:
> On Sep 15, 11:06 pm, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Duncan Smith wrote:
>>> Pretty standard kit, 1 1/8 threadless forks, headset pressed onto
>>> frame, star-fangled nut an inch or so beneath the fork's rim, the top
>>> bolt tightened with a little thread-lock and then the two side bolts.

>> I think that you misunderstand how the threadless nut
>> system works. You should not be using thread lock on the
>> top bolt, this is only used to initially tension the
>> cones, before the two side bolts clamp the handle bars on.
>>
>> You should not keep just tightening the side-bolts, this
>> could cause you to strip a thread.
>>
>> You need to loosen the side bolts, tighten the top bolt a
>> nudge, then tighten the side bolts again and see what happens.

>
> That's okay, that's what I've been doing - just thought the thread-loc
> couldn't hurt as well, as I'm already having trouble in that area
> anyway. I'll try it once more without now...


If you have just stripped this down, and reassembled it,
it could just be components getting into place, and grease
moving out the way.

When I reassembled a headset earlier this year I had
similar symptoms. In the end I left it with the top bolt
over tightened for a week, then adjusted it, and it worked
first time.
(This is no good though if you need the bike tomorrow).
 
After serious thinking Duncan Smith wrote :
> On Sep 15, 11:12 pm, Simon D <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Not too tight no, just loose between the two halfs of the top collar.
> Head cup fitting could've been an issue - it was a new frame and
> headset and took the LBS only a couple of minutes to fit - is that
> enough to ream and face properly, etc.?


I'd be suspicious of that. No, two minutes isn't enough to ream and
face a head tube, but then very few shops routinely do this anyway.
However, the cups should at least be pressed in properly, and I'd
barely be able to fix the tool into place in two minutes!

--
Simon
 
On Sep 15, 11:28 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Sep 16, 7:16 am, Duncan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 15, 11:06 pm, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > Duncan Smith wrote:
> > > > Pretty standard kit, 1 1/8 threadless forks, headset pressed onto
> > > > frame, star-fangled nut an inch or so beneath the fork's rim, the top
> > > > bolt tightened with a little thread-lock and then the two side bolts.

>
> > > I think that you misunderstand how the threadless nut
> > > system works. You should not be using thread lock on the
> > > top bolt, this is only used to initially tension the
> > > cones, before the two side bolts clamp the handle bars on.

>
> > > You should not keep just tightening the side-bolts, this
> > > could cause you to strip a thread.

>
> > > You need to loosen the side bolts, tighten the top bolt a
> > > nudge, then tighten the side bolts again and see what happens.

>
> > That's okay, that's what I've been doing - just thought the thread-loc
> > couldn't hurt as well, as I'm already having trouble in that area
> > anyway. I'll try it once more without now...

>
> Based on how aheadsets work, your description doesn't make much sense
> to me. Try to work out what is actually working loose.
>
> James


Sorry - not a good description. I'll try again:

First I tighten the binder bolt through the top cap to compress the
top collar and then tighten the pinch bolts on the stem.

http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=168

The bit that says 'Smoothie Regular' in the above picture still slips
and slides about a bit in relation to the rest of the headset - I'll
keep an eye on it for another week and let the LBS have a go,

Thanks,

Duncan
 
On Sep 16, 7:46 am, Duncan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sep 15, 11:28 pm, "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Sep 16, 7:16 am, Duncan Smith <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > On Sep 15, 11:06 pm, Martin Dann <[email protected]> wrote:

>
> > > > Duncan Smith wrote:
> > > > > Pretty standard kit, 1 1/8 threadless forks, headset pressed onto
> > > > > frame, star-fangled nut an inch or so beneath the fork's rim, the top
> > > > > bolt tightened with a little thread-lock and then the two side bolts.

>
> > > > I think that you misunderstand how the threadless nut
> > > > system works. You should not be using thread lock on the
> > > > top bolt, this is only used to initially tension the
> > > > cones, before the two side bolts clamp the handle bars on.

>
> > > > You should not keep just tightening the side-bolts, this
> > > > could cause you to strip a thread.

>
> > > > You need to loosen the side bolts, tighten the top bolt a
> > > > nudge, then tighten the side bolts again and see what happens.

>
> > > That's okay, that's what I've been doing - just thought the thread-loc
> > > couldn't hurt as well, as I'm already having trouble in that area
> > > anyway. I'll try it once more without now...

>
> > Based on how aheadsets work, your description doesn't make much sense
> > to me. Try to work out what is actually working loose.

>
> > James

>
> Sorry - not a good description. I'll try again:
>
> First I tighten the binder bolt through the top cap to compress the
> top collar and then tighten the pinch bolts on the stem.
>
> http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view...
>
> The bit that says 'Smoothie Regular' in the above picture still slips
> and slides about a bit in relation to the rest of the headset - I'll
> keep an eye on it for another week and let the LBS have a go,


Well it's possible you are using some **** masquerading as an
adequately built bicycle component :)

But it's still not clear what is actually working loose. If the stem
is not slipping, and your top cap is pressing on it (ie the steerer
tube is not too long) then repeated re-tightening must be shifting
something. Is the headset firmly pressed into the head tube of the
frame?

James
 
In article <[email protected]>, Duncan
Smith
[email protected] says...

> First I tighten the binder bolt through the top cap to compress the
> top collar and then tighten the pinch bolts on the stem.
>
> http://www.on-one.co.uk/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=168
>
> The bit that says 'Smoothie Regular' in the above picture still slips
> and slides about a bit in relation to the rest of the headset - I'll
> keep an eye on it for another week and let the LBS have a go,
>

Still not quite clear where the movement is, but it does sound as if
maybe the compression ring isn't working properly.
 
Duncan Smith wrote:
> On Sep 15, 11:12 pm, Simon D <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Duncan Smith pretended :
>>
>>
>>
>>> Don't know if this is a problem or just a ****le, but every 80m or so,
>>> there's a definite play from the headset (maybe a mm, or close to two)
>>> that's noticeable forwards and backwards in-line with the top-tube
>>> (when pinching the top-collar and rocking the bike back and forth on
>>> the brake).

>> [snipped]
>>
>> It shouldn't be doing this; I'd get it checked if you're not confident
>> yourself. Is the headset free running after it's been tightened? If it
>> seems to be a little tight I'd be looking for poorly fitted / damaged /
>> mismatched components. All sorts of things could have caused this -
>> loose fork crown race, badly fitted head cups, even a bearing race
>> fitted upside down (although you'd probably have been a bit more aware
>> of that one!)
>>
>> --
>> Simon

>
> Not too tight no, just loose between the two halfs of the top collar.
> Head cup fitting could've been an issue - it was a new frame and
> headset and took the LBS only a couple of minutes to fit - is that
> enough to ream and face properly, etc.?


No 2 minutes isn't long enough for that.

I'd suggest that in the light of this that maybe the head faces might be
not parallel or that the races haven't been pressed into place fully.
Maybe it's the components simply working a into place where they should
have been pressed.

How long has the slipping being going on? How many times has it
occurred? If it's been for more than, say, 10 miles and/or more than 3
or 4 times it's occurred then something strange is happening and someone
competent needs to look at the assembly critically.

--
Paul - ***
ebay 140158061971 140157345402
 
Simon D wrote:
> Duncan Smith pretended :
>
>>
>> Don't know if this is a problem or just a ****le, but every 80m or so,
>> there's a definite play from the headset (maybe a mm, or close to two)
>> that's noticeable forwards and backwards in-line with the top-tube
>> (when pinching the top-collar and rocking the bike back and forth on
>> the brake).

>
>
> [snipped]
>
> It shouldn't be doing this; I'd get it checked if you're not confident
> yourself. Is the headset free running after it's been tightened? If it
> seems to be a little tight I'd be looking for poorly fitted / damaged /
> mismatched components. All sorts of things could have caused this -
> loose fork crown race, badly fitted head cups, even a bearing race
> fitted upside down (although you'd probably have been a bit more aware
> of that one!)


'Twas fork crown race for me. Whatever anyone tells you about tapping
them on with a hammer, don't believe it. Get a good fit copper or
aluminium tube and smack the ******* down until it's a good fit.

I found the 'tapping around' method leaves it slightly '\', and this
rocks as you steer and the whole thing develops play.

Just my tuppence worth. Although I did tap on the head cups, I must get
a press sorted out for that job. But otoh, it's not something I do often.
 
Tosspot wrote:
> Simon D wrote:
>> Duncan Smith pretended :
>>
>>>
>>> Don't know if this is a problem or just a ****le, but every 80m or so,
>>> there's a definite play from the headset (maybe a mm, or close to two)
>>> that's noticeable forwards and backwards in-line with the top-tube
>>> (when pinching the top-collar and rocking the bike back and forth on
>>> the brake).

>>
>>
>> [snipped]
>>
>> It shouldn't be doing this; I'd get it checked if you're not confident
>> yourself. Is the headset free running after it's been tightened? If it
>> seems to be a little tight I'd be looking for poorly fitted / damaged
>> / mismatched components. All sorts of things could have caused this -
>> loose fork crown race, badly fitted head cups, even a bearing race
>> fitted upside down (although you'd probably have been a bit more aware
>> of that one!)

>
> 'Twas fork crown race for me. Whatever anyone tells you about tapping
> them on with a hammer, don't believe it. Get a good fit copper or
> aluminium tube and smack the ******* down until it's a good fit.
>
> I found the 'tapping around' method leaves it slightly '\', and this
> rocks as you steer and the whole thing develops play.
>
> Just my tuppence worth. Although I did tap on the head cups, I must get
> a press sorted out for that job. But otoh, it's not something I do often.


Inclined to agree but be wary of off-centre clobbering lol. Best method
I've found is getting the other half to hold two blocks of wood in the
vice jaws and putting the head tube and race into the space, lining them
up nicely and slowly cranking the vice in - puts them in nice and smooth
and parallel. If no vice handy I have used a long bolt and two thick
steel plates with holes in and a bit of cloth for paint protection .
 

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