I need a 19 watt increase.....

[bgoetz]

I really don't think there is much technique to pedaling a bike. Asside from a good bike fit and knowing what gear you need to be in in certain situations, I think most will naturally gravitate towards a technique that allows them to make the most power. Certainly someone who is making and FTP of 4+ watts/kg is not too far off.

 

[cognitive]

Ok I will give a little bit lets look at your breathing ok let's say your right handed which most people are! Now when climbing you will exhale on the right side more this can be fixed as you want to beable to exhale on each side like swimmers do this can be done by using an odd and even number when pedalling so you change sides on exhale this will help you hold a higher pace for longer the body is more efficient exhaling

 

[cognitive]

bilaterally breathing exhaling and inhaling on even an odd numbers when pedalling most people are right handed so exhale only on right side is this what you do? Being able to in hale through nose and mouth at same time this is another technique...there's 2 for you there! And I didn't say anything about how to improve your pedalling.

 

[bgoetz]

One technique I have yet to master that is a real technique for these longer Pro/1/2 races is pissing off the bike. I am yet to not **** on my shoes!!

 

[Felt_Rider]

I've been working on breathing out my left nostril on a right pedal stroke and breathing in my right nostril on a left pedal stroke. Try doing that while pissing off the bike at the same time. And I am just at the recreational level as well so one could only imagine my technique if I ever get to Cat 5.


10K, nice work. About your concern of what bike to use and "junk up" I understand. Back in January I had to have some major work done on my indoor/rain training bike due to extensive damage from salty sweat. The whole front end of the bike was damaged, bottom bracket from sweat running down the cables and down tube. The stem was completely ruined. So I was desperate to come up with something that would protect the bike while using rollers. Wrapping everything in towels wasn't working that well for me. Here is a DIY project that I came up with and have been using it now for weeks. The bike now looks as pristine as it did when I got it back from the major overhaul. http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/2012/12/sweat-guard-prototype.html

I may do some tweaks on this or the next version, but for now the sweat pools on top of the Lexan and then runs off the side safely away from the bike. I do use a bike thong for the top tube.

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by Felt_Rider . I may do some tweaks on this or the next version, but for now the sweat pools on top of the Lexan and then runs off the side safely away from the bike.

I may not perspire as much as you do, but I have found that my fan can prevent dripping perspiration. I built my own Rube Goldberg device for my trainer rides in order to be able to use TT bars for comfort without having to attach/detach them to my bars, but I suppose you could adapt it for the perspiration problem. The benefit of my device is that I don't have to attach anything to my bike. I just roll it in and clamp it down. Here's a pic:

 

[10kman]

Loving the sweat guard protection. I use a bike thong, and have a towel wrapped around the stem and over the bars, but with a little hole so the Garmin can peak through at me. The fan has helped me wonders though.

My rain bike, which used to be my inside bike until I got the trackie, recently got an overhaul, and the bottom bracket was literally caked with dried salt powder. It was pretty impressive. I got the BB out of there with the help of some PB Blaster and patience, then cleaned it out very well. I think sweat just finds ways in there, and I think it even comes through the saddle and down the seat tube.

That was from a couple seasons of riding inside with no real air circulation, so it was really getting clobbered. The fan has seriously made inside riding a whole new experience for me.

Got in another 2 x 20 last night, 353 and 355 watts were my numbers. Highest yet, and I'm going off of feel with once in a while looking at the Garmin to make sure I'm actually not cheating myself plus or minus. I'm going to start the slow climb to getting in 60 minutes of "work" now, I'm in the 6 month window of race day, so while 40 minutes is a good start, I need to get the total time up. Hopefully I don't need the full 60 minutes on the race days, hoping for a few minutes under that at this point.

I think I posted before about a concern about the nicer weather coming, and how I'm going to budget in working out like I am now, and still riding enough to enjoy it. So my 2 x 20 days now for example are about 80 total minutes, but if I want to go out for a 2-3 hour ride, should I do the workout first, then go ride, or try to do the workout during the actual ride (doubt that'll work, the trainer is so much more steady and accurate), or just plan on having more trainer days even though the weather is nicer, hence biting the bullet with training for the first time. Just need some advice on that because I really like my longer loops (the 3-5 hour rides), but am making progress where it matters right now.

I'm going to work on the inhale left nostril/exhale right nostril technique too, that's probably throwing off my cadence by using both nostrils for both actions now.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Originally Posted by RapDaddyo .

I may not perspire as much as you do, but I have found that my fan can prevent dripping perspiration. I built my own Rube Goldberg device for my trainer rides in order to be able to use TT bars for comfort without having to attach/detach them to my bars, but I suppose you could adapt it for the perspiration problem. The benefit of my device is that I don't have to attach anything to my bike. I just roll it in and clamp it down. Here's a pic:

That is sweet! A sheet of Lexan could be mounted just under the aerobars and that cross tubing. Mount it so that it cross slopes from one side to the other and put a bucket to catch the flow. You could heat up the Lexan to create a gutter to better direct the flow.

I use two fans with one of them nice enough to create a chill and I still sweat pools. During the summer months I use a dehumidifier that also helps to dry things up. My training is rusting my wife's treadmill that sits next to my setup. She is not a happy camper and will sometimes make a random inspection to make sure I cleaned up everything post training. She just bought me this big drying rack to hang all the towels and clothes so that I don't just dump in the laundry while wet.

Originally Posted by 10kman .

Loving the sweat guard protection. I use a bike thong, and have a towel wrapped around the stem and over the bars, but with a little hole so the Garmin can peak through at me. The fan has helped me wonders though.

I'm going to work on the inhale left nostril/exhale right nostril technique too, that's probably throwing off my cadence by using both nostrils for both actions now.

Yeah, I don't know why we are even bothering to churn up a sweat and potentially damage equipment when the "best training" is stuff like breathing exercises.

 

[10kman]

Have a question about rest days. Keeping with the theme that started this thread, I don't have a method to it other than when I feel tired, I rest. I have been better about alternating easy/hard, then doing maybe 2 days of rest at one point but I'm still on the bike. I seem to do one total off bike day about every 10th day of training. Been doing some reading and I think I need to do one per week, but need help with the other 6 days. I'm looking for ftp increases like I've been seeing, so that's my focus with some vo2 days sprinkled in. I've also read up on block training and I like the change of pace rather than on/off idea, just to break things up for me. If I do blocks, what's a good pattern to follow considering I'm looking for ftp gains? 3 day blocks or something else? Or stick with on/off? I'm game to experiment and try something out but I swear Google and time is a bad combination for someone on a mission. Thanks all, hope everyone is doing well. 10kman

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Dude, haven't you found your 19 watts yet? Leave some for the rest of us

Blocks can work, it depends a lot how much your training needs to be tied to calendar weeks or how much you might let your training blocks roll out of synch with things like your job, family or school schedules.

Lot's of ways to do block training but it generally involves a number of solid consecutive days till you either are carrying too much fatigue for quality work or predict that you'll carry too much fatigue and then you rest, recover and repeat. If you really buy into block training you don't take those rest days aligned with specific days of the week like Mondays or Fridays but just keep rolling the work blocks and then recover before doing it again. This doesn't work for everyone as a lot of folks need the time on weekends for longer rides or have their training planned to line up with other schedules which can make pure block training problematic.

Some folks also target only one system per block, so for instance as many consecutive days of L4 as they can manage before the quality drops off. others just focus solid work and might do a descending L5, L4, L3/SST progression in say a 3 day block. Lot's of theories, lot's of opinions on best ways to approach this stuff but figure out what makes sense for you or what sort of training challenge you want to attempt. Block training does not remove the need to recover from your hard work, it just loosens up the relationship between hard training days and days of the week so listen carefully to your body or start out with fixed block lengths as in 3 day or 4 day blocks between easier or rest days.

But sure pure block training with no weekly alignment or pseudo blocks (e.g. Tue-Wed-Thurs bloc, Sat-Sun block) works for a lot of folks and lot's of variations in terms of single system focus in each block or mixed approaches. You'll hear arguments for both methods, but there's not a lot of hard science to prove one over the other so try something that appeals to you and see how it works for you.

Good luck,
-Dave

 

[10kman]

Ha, I may have the 19 watts but I won't know until I do a practice ride up the course and/or race, which is still months away. So I'm going off of "lab results" on the trainer and as long as I keep gaining I'm going to keep going. I am so used to on/off methodology straying from it seems abnormal, I'm still torn, but am tinkering with figuring out a rest schedule that helps me out.

 

[gregf83]

I skimmed this thread, so my apologies if this has already been mentioned, but you might find some ideas in Cameron Cogburn's blog: http://www.ccbracing.com/content/mt-washington-hillclimb-case-study It discusses his training during a very busy schedule leading up to winning last year.

 

[10kman]

This is a great find, that's the man that did the damage this year. Very interesting read, I'm going to absorb it some more.

 

[10kman]

Yet another question I can't seem to find a rule of thumb answer to.

So the Coggan power training zone table is probably a staple for just about anyone training. I know I reference it often.

What I can't seem to get a handle on is recovery time between reps, for each of the zones. The table gives a guideline for rough idea of time spent in each zone as a typical workout, but recovery between reps isn't really mentioned.

So for a typical 2 x 20, 2 x 25, or 2 x 30 minute workout, I'm using 4-5 minutes as my recovery period. Seems to be about right based on readings.

As I want to get more creative with the workouts in different zones, I'm unsure of how much rest to take as a guideline to get me started.

Example, if I want to do a 5 x 5 or 6 x 5 minute workout in L5, how much recovery should be suffice assuming one is in shape and capable of the workload? I do 3 x 3 workouts at pretty much max efforts, and take a 3 min recovery between each rep, and by the 3rd, i'm hurtin but not out of total control. Seems to do the trick for that workout.

But the L5 area seems to have me stumped for proper recovery and also how long reps should be to be effective.

Any guidelines?

Progress update, I've been feeling tired mentally and it's translated into me forcing efforts on the bike to hit numbers. I'm probably just bored with this whole winter that won't end and am itching to get outside. I've dropped down from the 2 x 20 @ about 100% FTP to doing 2 x 25's @ 90% or so FTP. I want to get up to the 60 minutes of work level, so am dropping efforts back while I shift the duration levels up.

Thanks a lot,
10k

 

[RapDaddyo]

Originally Posted by 10kman .
Example, if I want to do a 5 x 5 or 6 x 5 minute workout in L5, how much recovery should be suffice assuming one is in shape and capable of the workload? I do 3 x 3 workouts at pretty much max efforts, and take a 3 min recovery between each rep, and by the 3rd, i'm hurtin but not out of total control. Seems to do the trick for that workout. Any guidelines?

The 4-5 mins you are using for L4 efforts should be sufficient, assuming you are doing your L4s at less than 100%FTP. For L5 efforts (or any anaerobic effort), a 5min recovery should allow you to fully recover from each effort before the next effort. If your recovery is less than 5mins, you may not be fully recovered. You can work out the math based on a 30sec recovery half-life. So, after 5mins, you will be 99.9% recovered. Just bear in mind that a part of your anaerobic work capacity has a much longer recovery half-life (e.g., hours). So, for example, if you were to do repeats of 120%FTP to exhaustion (e.g., ~5mins) followed by a 5min recovery, you would experience a steady decline of your 120%FTP durations due to the steady degradation of your AWC. This accounts for why trackies do their best times in the early heats.

 

[10kman]

I've noticed that with the 3 x 3 workouts, I feel fine after the first work/recovery, then the next one I'm feeling taxed, then the third I feel like I'm fine for about 1 minute of the last rep before it starts to give me the burn notice.

I'll experiment more with some interval change-ups, I haven't done really much in the L5 effort range, or the upper L4 range either.

 

[10kman]

Not sure if I should be concerned or if this is just the nature of having data at my fingertips.

The last 2 attempts at a 3 x 3 min workout has yielded sub-par results. The last "Good" one of these I did the reps in 414, 416, and 424 watts.

Last week I did the workout again, and was in the low 400's for each, and my perceived effort was the same as before.

Last night, I did it again (usually I do this once every two weeks but curiousity got the best of me), and was in the 395 range for each, with perception being that I was hammering.

It feels like the power just isn't peaking out like it was before on these reps.

My total training time for a week is still down, I mean I'm barely kissing 10 hours a week right now which has a lot more quality in it than I'm used to, but I've hardly made any sudden jumps to make this a possible burnout situation (I'm thinking outloud).

Anything to worry about? I rest on Mondays and Fridays, Monday is usually off entirely, Friday is active recovery/easy L2 pace. I feel rested when I need to, worked when I need to.

Timing wise, I have July as a climb, and August as a climb. So if I'm flaking out, I have 4 months to figure something out.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Not nearly enough information in your post to know if you might want to change things up a bit, but a couple of thoughts:

- Going from say 415 during 3 minute efforts to 395 is only a 5% change and not really a warning sign all by itself. My numbers aren't as high as yours, but I've managed 380 to 383 watts for 5 minutes perhaps five different days, often see 360+ during L5 repeats but then go through periods where those L5 repeats feel very hard around 350 watts and I can't imagine doing any more on those days. That's still right around 90% of my best 5 minute MMP and I'm pretty sure based on breathing and RPE I elicited VO2 Max with each effort. IOW, I don't worry about not hitting my best possible repeats and do what I can do unless the bottom really falls out.

- If your numbers continue to drop or you don't have some sessions where you feel better every few weeks then look at the rest of your riding and ask if you're going too hard too often or not working enough steadier rides or recovery into your week. Also think about what days you do your L5 work. I generally like a work down in intensity plan where you'd do those hard efforts earlier in the week but some folks need a Tempo or even L4 day prior to their L5 day and struggle to do their VO2 Max work following a rest day. So think about playing with the timing of your L5 work a bit or looking at your overall week from a recovery standpoint but you want to be both opened up and very fresh for L5 work which can be a tough balance to find on a regular basis.

- I don't know how long you've been working the L5 stuff but IME it's best to do a few weeks perhaps up to five or six then shuffle things up, hit some other systems for a while before targeting focused L5 work again. That's part mental as it's really easy to burn out on L5 work but partly as it seems folks see diminishing returns on that work after a while and it's best to block it out to hit it a few times during the season. I actually like to do 3 to 4 weeks with a dedicated L5 day, then back away and use that same day for something else before bringing it back into the mix. That doesn't mean we don't hit any L5, we still get it in some races or feisty group rides with shorter hills or throw down a hard 3 to 6 minute effort on days you feel great but don't do the structured repeats in that level for too many weeks in a row.

Anyway what you've posted wouldn't concern me at all (and those are some seriously stout L5 numbers unless you're a very big guy) but you still might think about the way you bring L5 work into your training and whether you might change things up a bit.

-Dave

 

[10kman]

I do L5 work very sporadically, usually just enough to remind my muscles of what that feeling is, but not really a steady plan to increase or anything like that. But, it was increasing pretty routinely, I guess just from getting used to the efforts.

I have probably shifted to doing more "work" days than just normal OD days. I used to do probably 2 a week, now I'm doing 3-4. they are almost always FTP work though, trying to get my body adapted to it. When my numbers were increasing, I was doing maybe a work day on monday and thursday, the rest of the days were just OD.

So, there's a chance I'm just overthinking, or I'm not liking the amount of work right now and need some more base/OD.

Also, I weighed myself and I'm around 153 pounds right now. so I'm not a big guy by any means.

 

[daveryanwyoming]

Originally Posted by 10kman .

...Also, I weighed myself and I'm around 153 pounds right now. so I'm not a big guy by any means.

L5 repeats at nearly 6 w/kg, dang man that's impressive!