In the News: Test on Heras sample portends a dark week



J

Jason Spaceman

Guest
From the article:
--------------------------------------
Samuel Abt International Herald Tribune

MONDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2005

PARIS One way or another, this threatens to be a bad week for professional
bicycle racing in its sputtering campaign against doping.

On Monday, a laboratory in Madrid run by the Consejo Superior de Deportes, a
government agency that oversees Spanish sports, tested a urine specimen
collected from Roberto Heras, a 31-year-old Spaniard, in September while he was
one day away from easily winning the Vuelta a España for a record fourth time.

This was the second, or B, test of the specimen and the result is expected to be
announced Thursday. The first, or A, test revealed traces of EPO, an illegal
performance-enhancing drug favored by athletes in endurance sports.

If the counter-expertise, as the second test is called, also detects EPO, Heras
will be stripped of his victory in the Vuelta, the world's third-ranked
multiday bicycle race, and banned from competition for two years. Under the
rules of the new ProTour, he will also be banned from riding for any of the top
20 teams for four years.
------------------------------------------

Read it at http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/21/sports/BIKE.php






J. Spaceman

--
My email address ([email protected]) is fake. Email sent to it
will only get caught in my spam tarpit.
 
"Jason Spaceman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> From the article:
> --------------------------------------
> Samuel Abt International Herald Tribune
>
> MONDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2005
>
> PARIS One way or another, this threatens to be a bad week for professional
> bicycle racing in its sputtering campaign against doping.
>
> On Monday, a laboratory in Madrid run by the Consejo Superior de Deportes,
a
> government agency that oversees Spanish sports, tested a urine specimen
> collected from Roberto Heras, a 31-year-old Spaniard, in September while
he was
> one day away from easily winning the Vuelta a España for a record fourth
time.
>
> This was the second, or B, test of the specimen and the result is expected
to be
> announced Thursday. The first, or A, test revealed traces of EPO, an
illegal
> performance-enhancing drug favored by athletes in endurance sports.
>
> If the counter-expertise, as the second test is called, also detects EPO,
Heras
> will be stripped of his victory in the Vuelta, the world's third-ranked
> multiday bicycle race, and banned from competition for two years. Under
the
> rules of the new ProTour, he will also be banned from riding for any of
the top
> 20 teams for four years.
> ------------------------------------------
>
> Read it at http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/21/sports/BIKE.php
>
>
>
>
>
>
> J. Spaceman
>
> --
> My email address ([email protected]) is fake. Email sent
to it
> will only get caught in my spam tarpit.

Remember the same thing happened to Pantani at the Giro in 99.

Laz
 
"Laz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> "Jason Spaceman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> From the article:
>> --------------------------------------
>> Samuel Abt International Herald Tribune
>>
>> MONDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2005
>>
>> PARIS One way or another, this threatens to be a bad week for
>> professional
>> bicycle racing in its sputtering campaign against doping.
>>
>> On Monday, a laboratory in Madrid run by the Consejo Superior de
>> Deportes,
> a
>> government agency that oversees Spanish sports, tested a urine specimen
>> collected from Roberto Heras, a 31-year-old Spaniard, in September while
> he was
>> one day away from easily winning the Vuelta a España for a record fourth
> time.
>>
>> This was the second, or B, test of the specimen and the result is
>> expected
> to be
>> announced Thursday. The first, or A, test revealed traces of EPO, an
> illegal
>> performance-enhancing drug favored by athletes in endurance sports.
>>
>> If the counter-expertise, as the second test is called, also detects EPO,
> Heras
>> will be stripped of his victory in the Vuelta, the world's third-ranked
>> multiday bicycle race, and banned from competition for two years. Under
> the
>> rules of the new ProTour, he will also be banned from riding for any of
> the top
>> 20 teams for four years.
>> ------------------------------------------
>>
>> Read it at http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/21/sports/BIKE.php
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> J. Spaceman
>>
>> --
>> My email address ([email protected]) is fake. Email sent
> to it
>> will only get caught in my spam tarpit.
>
> Remember the same thing happened to Pantani at the Giro in 99.
>
> Laz

Not exactly - Pantani was never declared the winner of the Giro and he
didn't truly test positive for EPO. Ofcourse, given the fact that the
incredible unreliability of the tests has become clear since then, Pantani
deserves to be rehabilitated. Tyler Hamilton, for example, pointed to the
huge margin of error that some machines used for measuring hematocrit value
have.
 
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Laz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Jason Spaceman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> From the article:
>>> --------------------------------------
>>> Samuel Abt International Herald Tribune
>>>
>>> MONDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2005
>>>
>>> PARIS One way or another, this threatens to be a bad week for
>>> professional
>>> bicycle racing in its sputtering campaign against doping.
>>>
>>> On Monday, a laboratory in Madrid run by the Consejo Superior de
>>> Deportes,
>> a
>>> government agency that oversees Spanish sports, tested a urine specimen
>>> collected from Roberto Heras, a 31-year-old Spaniard, in September while
>> he was
>>> one day away from easily winning the Vuelta a España for a record fourth
>> time.
>>>
>>> This was the second, or B, test of the specimen and the result is
>>> expected
>> to be
>>> announced Thursday. The first, or A, test revealed traces of EPO, an
>> illegal
>>> performance-enhancing drug favored by athletes in endurance sports.
>>>
>>> If the counter-expertise, as the second test is called, also detects
>>> EPO,
>> Heras
>>> will be stripped of his victory in the Vuelta, the world's third-ranked
>>> multiday bicycle race, and banned from competition for two years. Under
>> the
>>> rules of the new ProTour, he will also be banned from riding for any of
>> the top
>>> 20 teams for four years.
>>> ------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Read it at http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/21/sports/BIKE.php
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> J. Spaceman
>>>
>>> --
>>> My email address ([email protected]) is fake. Email
>>> sent
>> to it
>>> will only get caught in my spam tarpit.
>>
>> Remember the same thing happened to Pantani at the Giro in 99.
>>
>> Laz
>
> Not exactly - Pantani was never declared the winner of the Giro and he
> didn't truly test positive for EPO. Ofcourse, given the fact that the
> incredible unreliability of the tests has become clear since then, Pantani
> deserves to be rehabilitated. Tyler Hamilton, for example, pointed to the
> huge margin of error that some machines used for measuring hematocrit
> value have.
IIRC from Willie Voet's book, the teams use the same testing devices as the
Vampires to reduce the risk of being caught out. As for Pantani, even if he
had been caught with EPO, there was no ProTour and he would have been
treated much like Virenque and Zulle.
 
"Jason Spaceman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> From the article:
> --------------------------------------
> Samuel Abt International Herald Tribune
>
> MONDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2005
>
> PARIS One way or another, this threatens to be a bad week for professional
> bicycle racing in its sputtering campaign against doping.
>
> On Monday, a laboratory in Madrid run by the Consejo Superior de Deportes,
> a
> government agency that oversees Spanish sports, tested a urine specimen
> collected from Roberto Heras, a 31-year-old Spaniard, in September while
> he was
> one day away from easily winning the Vuelta a España for a record fourth
> time.
>
> This was the second, or B, test of the specimen and the result is expected
> to be
> announced Thursday. The first, or A, test revealed traces of EPO, an
> illegal
> performance-enhancing drug favored by athletes in endurance sports.
>
> If the counter-expertise, as the second test is called, also detects EPO,
> Heras
> will be stripped of his victory in the Vuelta, the world's third-ranked
> multiday bicycle race, and banned from competition for two years. Under
> the
> rules of the new ProTour, he will also be banned from riding for any of
> the top
> 20 teams for four years.
> ------------------------------------------
>
> Read it at http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/21/sports/BIKE.php
>
>
Don't see it happenning, "the fix is in!"
 
"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
>
> "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> "Laz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>> "Jason Spaceman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>> From the article:
>>>> --------------------------------------
>>>> Samuel Abt International Herald Tribune
>>>>
>>>> MONDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2005
>>>>
>>>> PARIS One way or another, this threatens to be a bad week for
>>>> professional
>>>> bicycle racing in its sputtering campaign against doping.
>>>>
>>>> On Monday, a laboratory in Madrid run by the Consejo Superior de
>>>> Deportes,
>>> a
>>>> government agency that oversees Spanish sports, tested a urine specimen
>>>> collected from Roberto Heras, a 31-year-old Spaniard, in September
>>>> while
>>> he was
>>>> one day away from easily winning the Vuelta a España for a record
>>>> fourth
>>> time.
>>>>
>>>> This was the second, or B, test of the specimen and the result is
>>>> expected
>>> to be
>>>> announced Thursday. The first, or A, test revealed traces of EPO, an
>>> illegal
>>>> performance-enhancing drug favored by athletes in endurance sports.
>>>>
>>>> If the counter-expertise, as the second test is called, also detects
>>>> EPO,
>>> Heras
>>>> will be stripped of his victory in the Vuelta, the world's third-ranked
>>>> multiday bicycle race, and banned from competition for two years. Under
>>> the
>>>> rules of the new ProTour, he will also be banned from riding for any of
>>> the top
>>>> 20 teams for four years.
>>>> ------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> Read it at http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/21/sports/BIKE.php
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> J. Spaceman
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> My email address ([email protected]) is fake. Email
>>>> sent
>>> to it
>>>> will only get caught in my spam tarpit.
>>>
>>> Remember the same thing happened to Pantani at the Giro in 99.
>>>
>>> Laz
>>
>> Not exactly - Pantani was never declared the winner of the Giro and he
>> didn't truly test positive for EPO. Ofcourse, given the fact that the
>> incredible unreliability of the tests has become clear since then,
>> Pantani deserves to be rehabilitated. Tyler Hamilton, for example,
>> pointed to the huge margin of error that some machines used for measuring
>> hematocrit value have.
> IIRC from Willie Voet's book, the teams use the same testing devices as
> the Vampires to reduce the risk of being caught out. As for Pantani, even
> if he had been caught with EPO, there was no ProTour and he would have
> been treated much like Virenque and Zulle.

I'm not sure, because Pantani wasn't treated like them as it was.
 
"Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:eek:[email protected]...
>>
>> "Jonathan v.d. Sluis" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> "Laz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>> "Jason Spaceman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>> From the article:
>>>>> --------------------------------------
>>>>> Samuel Abt International Herald Tribune
>>>>>
>>>>> MONDAY, NOVEMBER 21, 2005
>>>>>
>>>>> PARIS One way or another, this threatens to be a bad week for
>>>>> professional
>>>>> bicycle racing in its sputtering campaign against doping.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Monday, a laboratory in Madrid run by the Consejo Superior de
>>>>> Deportes,
>>>> a
>>>>> government agency that oversees Spanish sports, tested a urine
>>>>> specimen
>>>>> collected from Roberto Heras, a 31-year-old Spaniard, in September
>>>>> while
>>>> he was
>>>>> one day away from easily winning the Vuelta a España for a record
>>>>> fourth
>>>> time.
>>>>>
>>>>> This was the second, or B, test of the specimen and the result is
>>>>> expected
>>>> to be
>>>>> announced Thursday. The first, or A, test revealed traces of EPO, an
>>>> illegal
>>>>> performance-enhancing drug favored by athletes in endurance sports.
>>>>>
>>>>> If the counter-expertise, as the second test is called, also detects
>>>>> EPO,
>>>> Heras
>>>>> will be stripped of his victory in the Vuelta, the world's
>>>>> third-ranked
>>>>> multiday bicycle race, and banned from competition for two years.
>>>>> Under
>>>> the
>>>>> rules of the new ProTour, he will also be banned from riding for any
>>>>> of
>>>> the top
>>>>> 20 teams for four years.
>>>>> ------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> Read it at http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/11/21/sports/BIKE.php
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> J. Spaceman
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> My email address ([email protected]) is fake. Email
>>>>> sent
>>>> to it
>>>>> will only get caught in my spam tarpit.
>>>>
>>>> Remember the same thing happened to Pantani at the Giro in 99.
>>>>
>>>> Laz
>>>
>>> Not exactly - Pantani was never declared the winner of the Giro and he
>>> didn't truly test positive for EPO. Ofcourse, given the fact that the
>>> incredible unreliability of the tests has become clear since then,
>>> Pantani deserves to be rehabilitated. Tyler Hamilton, for example,
>>> pointed to the huge margin of error that some machines used for
>>> measuring hematocrit value have.
>> IIRC from Willie Voet's book, the teams use the same testing devices as
>> the Vampires to reduce the risk of being caught out. As for Pantani,
>> even if he had been caught with EPO, there was no ProTour and he would
>> have been treated much like Virenque and Zulle.
>
> I'm not sure, because Pantani wasn't treated like them as it was.

He certainly did have the Italian drug police riding his rear. I don't
think there was ever any doubt that he was over 50% in the Giro.
 
Wait a minute Jon - Pantani's test wasn't for EPO, but rather for
having an elevated hematocrit. There's nothing unreliable about that
test since it is performed millions of times a day every day of the
year in every blood bank and hospital lab in the world.

Pantani's problem was that he couldn't take the negative publicity that
went with the otherwise meaningless test. Riders could have high
hematocrits naturally (Pantani didn't) or they could have been severely
dehydrated (the Giro tests were performed in the morning when a rider
was expected to have hydrated to normal levels).

Marco was surely a star but he could have simply waited out the 6 Weeks
"health" period and resumed racing. Instead he went ballistic and never
really came back to racing on a serious level.
 
Tom said: "There's nothing unreliable about that
test since it is performed millions of times a day every day of the
year in every blood bank and hospital lab in the world."

This does not make the test reliable.

-RJ
 
In article <[email protected]>,
"B. Lafferty" <[email protected]> wrote:

> IIRC from Willie Voet's book, the teams use the same testing devices as the
> Vampires to reduce the risk of being caught out.

Brian, I think he was alluding to variations in the readings from one device
to the next of the same make and model, rather than between brands.

--
tanx,
Howard

The sheriff is near...

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?
 
"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "ronaldo_jeremiah" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Uh... the one you referred to.
>
> So you don't know anything about the tests and yet have opinions on them.
> Great job you have there.
>
>

Tom,

In RJs defense, plenty of things were accepted as scientifically valid when
they are questionable, like lie detector tests in court. I think he was
just saying because something is accepted does not make it valid.

-Philip
 
>. I think he was
> just saying because something is accepted does not make it valid.

dumbasses,

kunich is right in this case. hematocrit tests are accurate (and they
allow for a margin of error) and pantani could've sat out the two weeks
(not six) and gone back to business instead of having a total meltdown.


the hct attempts to tests for the symptom*, not the drug, so it's not
considered a positive test. it was introduced at a time when there was
no EPO test, but since there is one now it (and the stupid health
break) should be abandoned.

otherwise the test is passing doped riders who don't cross the magic
threshold and may snag an occasional clean rider with a high hct. and
mess up their career.

the validity of the hct is not in question - why are you idiots even
debating this ?


*the EPO off test also tests the symptom but is a bit more involved.
 
It isn't as if they are working from nothing. But the idea here is that
people who DON'T understand the tests, the procedures or how they're
derived shouldn't be speaking authoritatively about them.

What's more - while the idea behind the "index" might be supportable by
strong testing, whether or not there are variables caused in some
manner by the practical side of gathering the samples or processing
them still needs to be thoroughly inspected.

Cyclingnews interviews are all well and fine but remember that
reporters seldom know the sticky questions to ask.
 
Phil.

Yes, exactly. Thank you. I don't know what wasn't clear about that.

The widespread acceptance of a test does not make it valid. TK's
responses made me feel like I was taking crazy pills.

-RJ
 
< 18. ronaldo_jeremiah
Nov 22, 11:00 am>

"WTF are you talking about? "

Thanks for making my point.
 
You have no point. But let's review.

TK: "There's nothing unreliable about that
test since it is performed millions of times a day every day of the
year in every blood bank and hospital lab in the world."

RJ: "This does not make the test reliable."

TK: "What test?"

RJ: "Uh... the one you referred to."

TK: "So you don't know anything about the tests and yet have opinions
on them.
Great job you have there."

RJ: "Tom - WTF are you talking about?"

TK: "Thanks for making my point."

Personally, I think you lost the thread somewhere around "what test?"

-RJ
 
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