is this HR formula right?

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by shming123, Oct 1, 2004.

  1. shming123

    shming123 New Member

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  2. Doctor Morbius

    Doctor Morbius New Member

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    The Karvonen Formula is just one of many ways to calculate training zones. It is neither wrong or right.

    The 220 - age formula is flat out wrong as an person's heart rate can vary by + or - 15 BPM. It is a statistical average for large populations. You should only use it as a general guidline until you can do (i.e. are fit enough) an accurate Max HR measurement.
     
  3. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    subtracting your age from 220 isn't an accurate way to measure HRmax, there's a standard deviation of +/-15 b/min to that regression equation and it can only be used to calculate group means, rather than individual.

    If you want to know your HRmax, the best way is via testing either in a lab or with a coaching group such as RST.

    At RST we don't use the Karvonnen HR zones -- one of the issues with these is that if you are ill or fatigued and your resting HR increases, your zones will go up (rather than the need for them to be reduced).

    Ric
     
  4. shming123

    shming123 New Member

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    To determine HR zones, can't you just multiply your max HR by whatever percent? Example, my max HR is 200. Can't I just multiply 200 x .8 = 160, so 160 bpm is 80% of my max? and you just do the same thing for other % or your max? max x .7 =70% of max, etc.. ?? This would seem the common sense way to do it, or do you have to do some formula?
     
  5. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    At RST we use zones of HRmax based on straight percentages.

    Our zones are:

    Recovery up to 70% HRmax
    Endurance
    Zone 1 75 to 77.5% HRmax
    Zone 2 77.5 to 80% HRmax
    Zone 3 80 to 85% HRmax
    Intensive
    Zone 4 85 to 87.5% HRmax
    Zone 5 87.5 to 92.5% HRmax
    Maximal
    Zone 6 92.5 to 100% HRmax

    However, with some riders we may simplify the zones by amalgamating them into the zone category, i.e., we have four zones: Recovery, Endurance, Intensive, and Maximal. In other words, Endurance zone is 75 to 85% HRmax, etc.

    Ric

    Edit: These are the 'old' Peter Keen zones
     
  6. Doctor Morbius

    Doctor Morbius New Member

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    Schming123, Here's an online HR calc that is based on revised BCF/ABCC/WCPP training guidelines originally set forth by Peter Keen. They use a % of MaxHR.

    http://www.machinehead-software.co.uk/heart_rate_zone_calculator_abcc_bcf.html

    Personally, I've found Karnoven's formula to be too intense.
     
  7. antoineg

    antoineg New Member

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    This problem seems fairly easy to overcome for someone who keeps daily - or near-daily - track of their waking HR.

    You imply that there are other issues -- can you elaborate?
     
  8. antoineg

    antoineg New Member

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    I'm curious -- do you predict LT/AeT based on HR? And what is the relative importance you attach to LT (or AeT)-based zones vs. HR-based zones?
     
  9. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    Not really sure what AeT is, it appears to be a made up metric by triathletes?

    You can't define LT by HR as it has nothing to do with it. LT is commonly defined within the literature as the workload that elicits a 1 mmol/L in lactate over exercise baseline levels (~ 2.x mmol/L) or at a fixed rate of 2.5 mmol/L. Thus LT is measured in power (watts) for cycling or speed (m/s or km/hr) in running. Thus, this is about 10 - 15% below ~1-hr TT power.

    Whilst power at LT is an excellent predictor of performance, and is highly correlated to the power you can produce over an e.g., 1-hr TT, at RST we prefer to base zones on e.g., MAP which is correlated with VO2max and is the rate limiting mechanism. It's easier to ascertain MAP than LT.

    If we have the option RST uses power based MAP zones, and if HR only is available we use zones based on HRmax, as developed by Peter Keen

    Ric
     
  10. antoineg

    antoineg New Member

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    LOL -- anaerobic threshold. You've never heard of the term AeT? That sort of blows my mind.

    That's why I asked; many people do attempt to guess at it as a percentage of HR based on fitness level. For those who don't want to do more complex tests, a HR-based approach, in combination with RPE, may be better than nothing at all.

    Interesting. I don't agree with that last statement (in bold) at all, unless you mean theoretically, in a lab setting. Out in a race setting LT (or AeT :)) is much more of a practical limiter of performance.
     
  11. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    obviously, i've heard of anaerobic threshold, but having seen a couple of articles by some tri people they appeared to be talking about a much lower intensity. Be that as it may, AT is an outdated idea that is no longer used.

    however, you want to say it, VO2max *is* the rate limiting mechanism, as we can only exercise at certain percentages over certain durations. For e.g., the upper limit of VO2 as a percentage of VO2max during a 1-hr TT is ~ 90%. This upper limit occurs in vastly different fitness groups (i.e., it's not just elite pros). So while there's some slack in moving TT power's VO2 around (e.g., if i did no TT specific training over the winter it may drop to ~85%), it *is* limited by VO2max

    Ric
     
  12. antoineg

    antoineg New Member

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    Huh? Depending on what measurements you use, and criteria you apply, AeT may be slightly lower than, equal to, or slightly higher than LT.
    Huh? This is just flat-out wrong, incorrect, and misleading.
    You have a debate/lecturing style that I've come to recognize. You get very specific and very precise very quickly in an attempt to prove a point.

    A more generally correct statement would be that endurance cycling performance IN GENERAL is limited by lactate threshold. Some people, in shorter events, can exercise above their LT for some period of time. Once you move that duration out, however, that stops happening.
     
  13. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    i just checked a few triathlon coaches to ascertain what AeT is. I checked Mike Ricci and Gordo Byrn. AeT, according to them and all the other triathlon people i've seen is Aerobic Threshold. Never have i seen AeT (apart from just now with you) used to denote Anaerobic Threshold.

    For e.g., http://www.trifuel.com/triathlon/triathlon_training/000435.php

    No it isn't. No exercise physiologist or sports scientist would now use the term anaerobic threshold.


    I've no idea what you mean by shorter events, or some period of time. However, as previously pointed out we e.g., TT for ~ 1-hr at a higher power than LT, as LT is about 10 - 15% less than TT power. MLSS respresents a much closer power to 1-hr TT power, but is still less than ~1-hr TT power. However, these and other metrics are all very closely related (i.e., if your LT is high, so is your MLSS). All that being said i agree that (e.g.) LT is a good determinant of performance (as is MAP), however, in endurance exercise, VO2max is the rate limiting mechanism.

    Ric
     
  14. antoineg

    antoineg New Member

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    Bah. I'm done with this forum.

    Just because you aren't familiar with something, or don't agree with it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist or is incorrect.

    I would encourage anyone reading this "cycling training" forum to take anything they read from you with a huge grain of salt.
     
  15. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    agreed, i wasn't familar with AeT. you suggested it was something it wasn't, and i disagreed after pointing you to a link. Please show me anywhere, where AeT is anaerobic threshold.

    Ric
     
  16. Roadie_scum

    Roadie_scum New Member

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    Surely VO2max and LT are both limiters? Also, as an athlete becomes highly trained and advances in LT/Vo2max become incremental, other factors such as efficiency, lactate tolerance, glycogen sparing and ability to ride in more extreme aerodynamic positions will become important.
     
  17. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

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    I'm not saying that those factors aren't extremely important (and limiting) as they are. it's just that the actual 'governor' of the system (so to speak, i think this analogy works) is VO2max.

    ric
     
  18. Roadie_scum

    Roadie_scum New Member

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    I think it's a matter of semantics (maybe).
     
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