Lighting--Update to http://bicyclelighting.com

Steven M. Scharf said:

Quoted message said:

So you are an evangelist for rechargeable lighting systems.

Quoted message said:

No, I am a proponent of using proper lighting for commuting.

Excellent. So you are quite content to recommend dynamo systems with
3W halogen lamps, because massive numbers of commuters use them every
day.

You seem to think that Frank, David and I, to name but three, are
meking this up. We aren't. I sold my car two years ago, my bike is
my main mode of transport all year round, rain, snow, hail or shine,
day or night. My journey takes in unlit country roads and urban
roads. I do not want for light. If I did, I would change my lighting
setup: I have no reservations about spending cash on bikes, it's
massively cheaper than running a car.

What actually happened is that, having tried the Nexus hub for one
winter, and rechargeable lighting for another, I equipped my new
commuter with a SON. I have never regretted that. And for all your
denial that dynamo lighting systems are adequate, I have found them to
be not just adequate but good. Even the plain old 3W on the
Nexus-equipped bike.

One of the key benefits, as I've said more than once, is that if I
happen to be late leaving the office I know that the bike is set up
with lights which are ready to go. Do you honestly carry on charging
and carrying your battery pack all year round, just in case?

Quoted message said:

The power
source is unimportant. It just happens that it's very difficult and
expensive to generate enough power for safe lighting, using a dynamo.

Not really, you just pedal... ;-)

Compare like with like. A good quality dynamo system, suitable for
every day utility cycling, is no more expensive than a good quality
rechargeable system with smart charger, suitable for everyday
commuting, especially if you opt for a spare battery pack and a second
charger for the office. And even if it were much dearer, the first
battery replacement will likely blow the saving away. And even if it
didn't the cost is small compared with the bike, clothing, shoes,
luggage (have you seen Ortlieb's prices?) and other kit. And even if
it weren't, a dynamo lighting system has a practically infinite
service life, so spread over the decade or more of the life of a
typical commuting bike, the cost is peanuts anyway!

A cheap dynamo system can be had for a few tens of $. It won't be
very good, but it will work. The set I bought for my wife's commuter
bike was all German, good quality, Busch & Muller lamps with
standlights. Not the cheapest lights out there, but well worth the
money. I could have fitted a workable system for well under a third
of the cost, but I have no particular need to shave cents off the
price, and I like to think that keeping my wife alive on the roads is
a good investment.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I prefer to trust these guys:
http://www.audax.uk.net/lights/index.htm, they know just about
everything there is to know about lights because they really do push
the envelope of light performance.

Quoted message said:

They do have some good information on that site.

They do indeed. And they know what they are talking about because
they regularly ride all night. These are the people who sold me on
the SON.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Since you are evidently not a utility cyclist I am sure this makes no

difference to you.

Quoted message said:

So someone who favors high power lighting is not a utility cyclist?! Surely
you can do better than that.

Where did I say that? I'm all for high power lighting; I have a high
power light set on my bike - two (count 'em!) 3W halogen headlights.
I do miss the (broken) SON E6 headlamp, that was even better.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Nobody steals bikes with drop bars, dynamo lights, mudguards,
kickstands and pannier racks.

Quoted message said:

Wow, I'm moving to your planet!

It's true, though. A touring bike with mudguards, lights and drop
bars is completely unattractive to thieves.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The chances of having any light which makes an appreciable impact
against the visual pollution of an urban streetscape are slim.

Quoted message said:

You know not of what you speak.

Indeed I do. Even the Stadium 3 is still a Romulan cloaking device
for cyclists. Remember, I do this every day and have done for years.
I have tried lots of differnt lights, and ridden with people who have
tried lots of others. What makes the difference in being seen is not
the power of your light, but your road position and overall behaviour.
The only cyclist which drivers can be guaranteed to see is one who
blows a red on a black bike with no lights at all while wearing dark
clothing...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Keep trying, though, I'm sure you'll convert someone one day.

Quoted message said:

You should try to come up with a more clever response than that. Clearly
most utility cyclists who buy lights agree with the concept of having
sufficient light for urban riding (at least in the U.S.).

Utility cyclists always agree with the concept of having sufficient
light. And I think you'll find that the US would be unusual in having
a majority who decide that dynamo powered lights are insufficient.
Given that the US now apparently considers head protection to be
essential when playing soccer, I can't claim to be particularly
surprised :-)

It is all down to your definiton of what constitutes sufficient: your
personal definiton of the word is clearly different to that of a large
number of people who use dynamo lighting systems. And there are
millions of us, dynamos are the norm in places like Holland and
Germany. It's a big enough market that Shimano are a player.

As I have said before, you personally might prefer more light, but
there are plenty of us who ride our bikes every day with dynamo
lighting systems and consider them not just adequate but good.

Actually, I have found that excessively bright lights can mean I see
/less/ on country roads because they are so much brighter than the
ambient (moon)light that I can't see anything outside the beam. On at
least 2/3 of nights there is enough moonlight to provide useful vision
outside the beam, provided you don't blow it away with overbright
lights.

But I say again: I am not the one pushing dogma here. My view is that
you can make rechargeable lighting work for you just as easily as
dynamo lighting, provided you're not pushing the envelope on battery
life. It will never be as fit-and-forget as a SON, of course. I
prefer to have my vehicle ready to go at all times.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Just zis Guy said:

I do miss the (broken) SON E6 headlamp, that was even better.

What happenend? You might want to check with the factory to see whether
it can be repaired
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Just zis Guy said:

I do miss the (broken) SON E6 headlamp, that was even better.

What happenend? You might want to check with the factory to see whether
it can be repaired
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Just zis Guy said:

I also know that what matters is not the raw wattage, but how much
light is focused on the road ahead. A 3W halogen lamp will easily
outperform every 5W rechargeable I've ever seen, and many 10W ones,
because their beam focus is not narow enough. The trees are nice, but
I have no special desire to light them up with electricity I have to
carry with me. I'd much rather put just the right amount of light,
just where I need it.

Is there a 3W halogen lamp with good focus characteristics that is
suitable for connection to a battery? If so, sounds like everyone will
be happy (at least us battery light users will get good light with much
longer run times than we're getting now with our inefficient 10W
systems, though neither of my 10W battery lights seems to do much
lighting up of trees--heck, I often wish they were less narrowly focused
so I'd get a little flood effect).

--
I do not accept unsolicted commercial e-mail. Remove NO_UCE for
legitimate replies.

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:14:10 GMT, Victor Kan

_UCEloopdrive.net said:

Is there a 3W halogen lamp with good focus characteristics that is
suitable for connection to a battery?

I know of no reason why you shouldn't power something like the SON E6
off a battery if you want to, either with a 12V 3W lamp (may be hard
to find!) or using a 6V battery pack. This has the same optics as the
BiSy, and is probably the best beam focus for road use. Peter White
sells them, I think, but they are not cheap (good optics never are).

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

m-gineering said:

Quoted message said:

I do miss the (broken) SON E6 headlamp, that was even better.

Quoted message said:

What happenend? You might want to check with the factory to see whether
it can be repaired

Heh! I trod on the bugger while the bike was hanging up by its back
wheel in a train. The lens snapped off the screw. The body is fine,
but the lens is stuffed (gluing it was a waste of time).

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Just zis Guy said:

m-gineering said:

Quoted message said:

I do miss the (broken) SON E6 headlamp, that was even better.

Quoted message said:

What happenend? You might want to check with the factory to see whether
it can be repaired

Heh! I trod on the bugger while the bike was hanging up by its back
wheel in a train. The lens snapped off the screw. The body is fine,
but the lens is stuffed (gluing it was a waste of time).

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

If thats all: spare reflectors are 10 euro's each (choice of standard
and B model)
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Just zis Guy said:

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 13:14:10 GMT, Victor Kan

_UCEloopdrive.net said:

Is there a 3W halogen lamp with good focus characteristics that is
suitable for connection to a battery?

I know of no reason why you shouldn't power something like the SON E6
off a battery if you want to, either with a 12V 3W lamp (may be hard
to find!) or using a 6V battery pack. This has the same optics as the
BiSy, and is probably the best beam focus for road use. Peter White
sells them, I think, but they are not cheap (good optics never are).

I know of a few:
The switch is designed to work with a dynamo, connect it to a battery
and the startup current could fry the switch
Running the electronic voltage regulator on 12v is probably not a good
idea, but it saves on having to look for a 12v bulb with the same size
filament in exactly the right position. For this reason 5w 6v bulbs are
not an improvement.

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

you know? said:

ctually, I have found that excessively bright lights can mean I see
/less/ on country roads because they are so much brighter than the
ambient (moon)light that I can't see anything outside the beam. On at
least 2/3 of nights there is enough moonlight to provide useful vision
outside the beam, provided you don't blow it away with overbright
lights.

But I say again: I am not the one pushing dogma here. My view is that
you can make rechargeable lighting work for you just as easily as
dynamo lighting, provided you're not pushing the envelope on battery
life. It will never be as fit-and-forget as a SON, of course. I
prefer to have my vehicle ready to go at all times.

Guy

Despite the 'argumentative' back and forth, I've found this thread very
informative. It's the debate that brings out the exquisite detail and I
thank all of you for your input, both sides.

Perhaps one could define certain 'categories' of riding where certain
lighting systems come to the fore.

I also like the comparisons made between 'everyday' users and "True
Believers". That's an interesting concept, and a bit humorous.

I'm not taking sides, though, except to say that if you look at Adventure
Racing, and see what most of the top finishers use it can be helpful for
your type of riding if you're doing similar night riding/racing.

I've been reading the accounts and there are fairly few comments about
problems, and mostly are fun stories about swapping batteries for GU, lol.

However these kinds of rides have very well planned teams, finely honed
restocking (lol) and other things to keep them going. Thus they can focus
on what it takes to get them to the finish line ahead of the pack.

Now we realize, thanks to 'Guy', that the necessities of riding every day
as a commuter and soforth may have different optimal set-ups, where having
cutting edge 'gear' may or may not be the best all around, taking into
consideration everything from weight to stealth, to dollars spent.

Thanks guys!

-B

Steven Scharf said:

"David Damerell" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

First, the unsupported assertion that 3W isn't bright enough. You ever
going to offer any proof there?

As you are aware, I have provided numerous references regarding the
desirability of brighter lights from numerous informed sources.

More accurately, you've provided a bunch of other people's speculation
that happens to agree with you - except that at any given time, some of it
doesn't agree with whichever side of the urban/country flipflop you're
currently on.

Let's have some facts; such as, for instance, that the UK's Department for
Transport finds accident rates higher amongst unlit bicyclists, but finds
little difference between different types of light.

Quoted message said:

http://www.sacbike.org/articles/article.php?mode=display&lognum=17
"If you want to cycle at low speeds in areas with street lights, other
ambient lighting, or when there's a full moon on a cloudless night, a
low wattage light is OK. If you actually want to see obstacles in
darker areas, you need a more powerful light, from 10 to 30 watts or
more.

This, for example, doesn't fit. You're on the "urban" side of the flipflop
right now, remember?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What it really means is that you will always demand the most expensive
dynamo system.

I don't demand it. I simply point out that a dynamo system that can
provide a safe level of illumination is quite expensive.

Where mysteriously "safe" is both a higher level than innumerable cyclists
ride with without having accidents, and somehow isn't provided by cheaper
options that provide the same level of illumination.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Did you buy a job lot of MR16s 2 years ago, or something?

Surely you can come up with a more clever response than that,

When you exhibit behaviour which is not consistent with it, sure.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

Badger_South said:

Perhaps one could define certain 'categories' of riding where certain
lighting systems come to the fore.

I don't think any of us would dispute that for offroad use, these big
battery systems are considerably superior. The assumption that one can
focus 3W down _does_ depend on not needing to make really dramatic
sideways maneuvers at low speeds, not needing to watch trackside
obstructions right up until the handlebars pass them, etc.

I've been up bridlepaths and the like at night on my bike (not simply
unpaved roads or towpaths, which are OK) and while it's possible, it's
more work than it needs to be.
--
David Damerell <[email hidden]> flcl?

"Victor Kan" <[email hidden]_UCEloopdrive.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Is there a 3W halogen lamp with good focus characteristics that is
suitable for connection to a battery? If so, sounds like everyone will
be happy (at least us battery light users will get good light with much
longer run times than we're getting now with our inefficient 10W
systems, though neither of my 10W battery lights seems to do much
lighting up of trees--heck, I often wish they were less narrowly focused
so I'd get a little flood effect).

Not sure which lamps you have, but the MR11 and MR16 lamps, which are
commonly used in high end battery powered lights, are available in many
different beam patterns. Often, on dual beam systems, you'll have one flood
and one spot so you can select which lighting pattern is necessary in a
specific situation. There is one available lamp head that is adjustable from
narrow to flood, similar to Mag Lite flashlights. The MR16 is very
efficient, the MR11 slightly less, due to the smaller reflector.

If you look at the chart of efficiencies, the battery powered systems are
far more efficient in terms of the amount of energy used per lumen,
especially when you over-voltage. So don't fall for the lie about
"inefficient battery powered lights, there is absolutely nothing to back up
that claim.

m-gineering said:

Quoted message said:

I know of no reason why you shouldn't power something like the SON E6
off a battery if you want to

Quoted message said:

I know of a few:
The switch is designed to work with a dynamo, connect it to a battery
and the startup current could fry the switch

OK, so make sure you get the unswitched one. Thanks, Marten.

Quoted message said:

Running the electronic voltage regulator on 12v is probably not a good
idea, but it saves on having to look for a 12v bulb with the same size
filament in exactly the right position. For this reason 5w 6v bulbs are
not an improvement.

Probably right.

What I considered adding to the end of the previous post was: once you
have fitted a SON E6 lamp, all yu need is a SON hub and you can do
away with all that tedious mucking around with battery packs ;-)

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

m-gineering said:

If thats all: spare reflectors are 10 euro's each (choice of standard
and B model)

If only you could take credit card payments....

Send me an emu some time, guy dot chapman at spamcop dot net.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Tue, 02 Nov 2004 09:57:46 -0500, Badger_South <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I'm not taking sides, though, except to say that if you look at Adventure
Racing, and see what most of the top finishers use it can be helpful for
your type of riding if you're doing similar night riding/racing.

That's why I usually point people to the Audax UK website, because
those guys ride on dark roads, often all night, so they *know* what
works. There is very little dogma on that site, and lots of useful
info on how to get the best out of whichever system you choose.

What gets my goat is being told that the system I've been using
perfectly happily for 25 years (since the days of Union bottom bracket
dynamos, and thank Sheldon we've come a long way since then!) can't
possibly be good enough. It's like being told that "you can't cycle
commute unless there are showers at work" or "you can't commute by
bike in the winter" or "you can't cycle commute more than five miles"
or any of the other [censored] people come up with.

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

On Mon, 1 Nov 2004 12:01:45 -0500, "Matt O'Toole" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Just zis Guy said:

Steven M. Scharf said:

> On the other hand I just equipped a bike with a good quality bottle
> dynamo lighting system - including Busch & Muller lights - for under
> $150, and although I know *many* people who have had battery and
> rechargeable lights stolen, I have never met anybody who has had a
> dynamo or dynamo lights taken.

Quoted message said:

Even $150 is a lot of money for some people.

Sure, and for them there are cheaper dynamo systems. This was a good
quality system, Busch & Muller all round. A good quality rechargeable
system costs at least as much.

Oh, no it doesn't. What's wrong with this one?

http://www.performancebike.com/shop/profile.cfm?SKU=17690&subcategory_ID=4320

If brand names are important to you -- Nightrider, which most people consider a
"quality" brand name, sells essentially the same thing for $20 more.

Matt O.

Hit'em up for a commission. I just bought one.

"Badger_South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Despite the 'argumentative' back and forth, I've found this thread very
informative. It's the debate that brings out the exquisite detail and I
thank all of you for your input, both sides.

Perhaps one could define certain 'categories' of riding where certain
lighting systems come to the fore.

This is subject to interpretation as well. I read one account that
recommended against dynamo lights for multi-use paths and bicycle paths,
because riders tend to not go fast enough for a dynamo light to reach full
brightness. On the other hand, some may argue that you don't need much light
on bike paths, something I have not found to be true on many of the paths
around where I live, since they tend to be full of turns and hills.

Quoted message said:

I also like the comparisons made between 'everyday' users and "True
Believers". That's an interesting concept, and a bit humorous.

Quite humorous. I think a more useful comparison is between commuters, and
utility users.

Quoted message said:

I'm not taking sides, though, except to say that if you look at Adventure
Racing, and see what most of the top finishers use it can be helpful for
your type of riding if you're doing similar night riding/racing.

Quoted message said:

Now we realize, thanks to 'Guy', that the necessities of riding every day
as a commuter and soforth may have different optimal set-ups, where having
cutting edge 'gear' may or may not be the best all around, taking into
consideration everything from weight to stealth, to dollars spent.

This is true. Also the optimal set up may depend on where you can park your
bike, and the level of thefts. We've seen reports of dynamo theft in this
thread, though no reports of battery powered light theft, but the latter is
likely because the user either removes the lights if parking the bike
outside in an insecure area, or is able to park inside a building or other
secure area.

I like the concept of dynamo lights, but they are not the best choice for
urban commutes, if safety is a primary concern.

"For commuters, the best front light is the very bright rechargeable lamp."
You can't argue with that. The question then becomes whether or not
second-best is good enough, which is the argument in this thread.

Steven M. Scharf said:

Quoted message said:

Now we realize, thanks to 'Guy', that the necessities of riding every day
as a commuter and soforth may have different optimal set-ups, where having
cutting edge 'gear' may or may not be the best all around, taking into
consideration everything from weight to stealth, to dollars spent.

This is true. Also the optimal set up may depend on where you can park your
bike, and the level of thefts. We've seen reports of dynamo theft in this
thread, though no reports of battery powered light theft, but the latter is
likely because the user either removes the lights if parking the bike
outside in an insecure area, or is able to park inside a building or other
secure area.

I like the concept of dynamo lights, but they are not the best choice for
urban commutes, if safety is a primary concern.

"For commuters, the best front light is the very bright rechargeable lamp."
You can't argue with that. The question then becomes whether or not
second-best is good enough, which is the argument in this thread.

Well just realize that there is a concept at work here and that is what
works for the 'casual' user, indeed, what may be vastly superior for the
casual commuter, and the casual night rider if you probe the surface may be
somewhat different for those that have years of experience and are beyond
'casual commuting'.

Though we can benefit greatly from their experience, you have got to go
with 'what works best for you'. I don't say this 'casually' either. It may
take a year or two of intensive testing and biking long miles in the
wilderness, and hill climbing in the Alps, hehe, to determine what this
elusive WWB4Y thing is.

-B

Steven M. Scharf said:

Quoted message said:

Perhaps one could define certain 'categories' of riding where certain
lighting systems come to the fore.

Quoted message said:

This is subject to interpretation as well. I read one account that
recommended against dynamo lights for multi-use paths and bicycle paths,
because riders tend to not go fast enough for a dynamo light to reach full
brightness.

That is walking pace for the SON.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I also like the comparisons made between 'everyday' users and "True
Believers". That's an interesting concept, and a bit humorous.

Quoted message said:

Quite humorous. I think a more useful comparison is between commuters, and
utility users.

What would you say is the difference between a commuter and a utility
user? Utility vs. leisure, yes, but utility cyclists and cycle
commuters seem to me to be one and the same.

Quoted message said:

I like the concept of dynamo lights, but they are not the best choice for
urban commutes, if safety is a primary concern.

Again you repeat this [censored]! I have been riding daily for the last
three years on mixed urban and rural roads and *never once* had a
problem due to insufficient light, apart from the day when I forgot to
charge my rechargeables and they went out on me halfway home.

Quoted message said:

"For commuters, the best front light is the very bright rechargeable lamp."
You can't argue with that.

Yes I bloody can! As a commuter, the best light for me is one which
is permanently fitted to the bike, permanently ready to go, requires
no maintenance and doesn't require me to choose whether to risk
leaving the battery at home and be stranded if I work late, an issue
which you persist in ignoring!

Quoted message said:

The question then becomes whether or not
second-best is good enough, which is the argument in this thread.

[censored]. The argument in this thread is your invalid assertion that
raw power is all, and that dynamo systems are necessarily second best.
This is flatly contradicted by people who use such systems daily. Not
everybody is nyctalopic, you know!

Guy
--
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://www.chapmancentral.co.uk

88% of helmet statistics are made up, 65% of them at Washington University

Tue, 02 Nov 2004 05:13:59 GMT, Steven M. Scharf:

Quoted message said:

Actually, the best 6V dynamo is the LightSpin, it's much more efficient than
the SON, and it costs $130 (if you can find one to buy).

How did you measure this? The data Dynosys is using for advertising is
outdated. This old data (measured by me) was based on some pre-production
samples. Those had a very week spring and a smooth pulley resulting on low
losses but those slipped at the slightest amount of water in the air.
Dynosys (before they went bankrupt) changed desing of the spring
mechanism, the pulley and presumably the ellectronics, which made it a
less prone of slipping, but incrreased the losses. Up-to-date measurement
data can be found at. But remeber: The losses in bearings and sealings of
a normal front hub has to be added if you compare sidewall dynamos with
hub dynamos:

www.veloplus.ch/pdf/fachinformation/beleuchtung_042004629113216.pdf

Andreas