Michael Moore - fat, useless, pillock!

Bro Deal said:

The unions screwed themselves with their greed at the expense of their employers' long term survival. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that forcing companies to pay people to sit on their asses in the job banks will put them at a competitive disadvantage. Detroit has been getting its ass kicked by the Japanese for more than thirty years now, and in all that time the Big Three have not learned a damned thing. They still build gas guzzling crapmobiles and treat their customers like suckers. Their build quality has tarred the reputation of all American manufacturers. The day GM or Ford files for Chapter 11 will be a good day; it will serve as a shining example of how not to run a company.

While the Big Three close their plants in America, the Japanese, Koreans, and even the Germans have been opening their own. You would think there would be someone--anyone--in Detroit who could look at the trends and come to the conclusion that those furriners might be on to something. As it is, it looks like the American auto industry is destined to follow Britain's.

I will agree with you on all points except this.....

Quoted post said:

The day GM or Ford files for Chapter 11 will be a good day; it will serve as a shining example of how not to run a company. [

A better day would be see Americans wake up to the fact their consumption of products is misguided. I wasn't too clear, but I was thinking of unions in other industries then auto building. Food growing, food processing, farm implements, etc..........
I can't put my finger on exactly what and why, but the demise of the union is one of the major reasons we are seeing a greater difference between wage earning classes in America. I do believe that the time when major unions were corrupt are behind us. Looking at what is happening in corporate America, I believe that management needs to be looked at closely.
But getting back to MM..... I watched that show as he was preaching his gospel to the unionized workers, then he turned out to be what he preached about.
MM was embraced by the youth in this country on the campuses of this country. The youth like to view themselves as being "more aware" of things around them then the people that came before them. That concept was true to every generations youth. But they are the one group in America that can be easily manipulated to do what you want them to do. MM and other Hollywood types have a over-inflated view of themselves. They see the young people believing what they see on the screen, they have politicians getting into their pockets, and they see themselves on TV.

hello wolf, how are you comrade? since you expressed concern, well meaning i'm sure, i wanted to let you know was offerred a job, but i will have to mull it over, seeing as how i make 50-90+ usd and hour now with freelance and contract work...might cut into my riding time to work more than part time.

we also play a kinda eclectic coffeehouse folk set or two, not to mention house parties and barbeques, maybe this could be considered a job? i kinda doubt it, though.

anyway, i agree with the concept you offer here about america and this culture of consumption, this is indeed the root cause of many ripple effects, many of which affect the environment, (petro products and water consumption and waste, along with pollutants generated to manufacture the trinkets that pacify the masses)
and threaten word stability and peace, due to the profitability of those who hold sway over the current us gov't to dominate the resources of any geo-product rich nation or region, creating cause for military invasion and occupation which results in doing what it takes to create us colonies.

as for MM being embraced by any specific demographic group, i can tell you there are many "middle aged" clients of mine who are well read on these books, and it has been quite a while (decades) since they fit your generalization of student age college kids...they are now educated and succesful, able to weigh the cause and effect evidence and decide for themselves what constitutes reality. open minded perhaps but far from naive as you suggest, worldly would be more like it.

as for your third point about what you term as hollywood types being disparaged for presenting their opinions over the media, is this not their right and responsibilty to express and convey their views on any venue possible?

after all, this is what corporations and governing officialdom spend billions on, so we must be thinking if you can spend these millions to get an view out in the media it must be legit and approved of. kinda like how the military invasions of the us and the resultant atrocites these foment are legit due to their being caused by a "legit" gov't and not a "terrorist" rogue band of warriors. so much is justified by interpretation here...

maybe we gotta look at ourselves and our participation in this global forum here, does this not constitute the same kind of freedom of expression that the celebs garner? and on the cheap yet...

are you suggesting it is the message which meets your approval that is OK to get out there in the mainstream, and all others should shut up? approval of this concept is beneficial to a controlling power bent on global domination only at the expense of freedom of speech.

give the opinion of the people credit, the intelligence and cognitive capabilites of those who sift through the barrage of corporate media, and then object to the mainstream propaganda which exists to serve the interests of billionaires at the expense of humanity, might not be needing your babysitting services after all.

wolfix said:

I will agree with you on all points except this.....
A better day would be see Americans wake up to the fact their consumption of products is misguided.

MM was embraced by the youth in this country on the campuses of this country.

MM and other Hollywood types have a over-inflated view of themselves. They see the young people believing what they see on the screen, they have politicians getting into their pockets, and they see themselves on TV.

wolfix said:

I wasn't too clear, but I was thinking of unions in other industries then auto building. Food growing, food processing, farm implements, etc..........

I can see your point on that. I don't have much of an opinion on it because it is so divorced from my own situation and region. Ironic that the unions support the Dems and the Dems support unrestricted illegal immigration, which has led to the destruction of high paying jobs in industries like meat packing.

wolfix said:

I can't put my finger on exactly what and why, but the demise of the union is one of the major reasons we are seeing a greater difference between wage earning classes in America. I do believe that the time when major unions were corrupt are behind us. Looking at what is happening in corporate America, I believe that management needs to be looked at closely.

I don't think the unions have anything to do with the rise of the kleptocracy in the United States. It's a failure of the corporate governance model. The stock holders have less control over the executives than the proletariat did in the U.S.S.R. Certainly the election of the boards of directors is no more legitimate.

wolfix said:

MM was embraced by the youth in this country on the campuses of this country. The youth like to view themselves as being "more aware" of things around them then the people that came before them. That concept was true to every generations youth. But they are the one group in America that can be easily manipulated to do what you want them to do. MM and other Hollywood types have a over-inflated view of themselves. They see the young people believing what they see on the screen, they have politicians getting into their pockets, and they see themselves on TV.

I am not so sure. This is not the 70s. The youth in this country are blissfully clueless. There is a huge segment of America that has just tuned out. It makes me question whether democracy is workable in a society that is awash in propaganda and the people lack the knowledge and critical thinking skills to determine the truth. MM seems to speak to the ex-hippies who sold out and are now living in the suburbs, drinking swill from Charbux, driving Bimmers, and dreaming of the time they fought The Man.

Virenque said:

Moore has a big responsibility for anti-american propaganda here in Europe. Everyone would recommend you Bowling and Fahrenheit...yes he really is useless! The biggest shame for his country. I would recommend him to move and get a Canadian citizenship or something...

As an American, I have one reply.

Yeah, he's right - we DO suck. A lot. Most americans are pretty creepy, and quite a lot of us are just plain uninformed.

Tecumseh said:

He is nothing but a hypocrite. His bodyguards carry handguns but he rallies against ownership of handguns for people like me. I am just a normal person and I own a few firearms. I cant afford bodyguards or proffessional securtity to protect me so I have to take it upon myself. Hence the reasons why I own firearms.

Where the heck do you live? Los Angeles? Sierra Leone?

He's not against firearms. Anyone who is not afraid of a good, old-fashioned double-barreled break-action shotgun is likely on PCP, and hence will need to be shot - a task for which a shotgun, and not much else, is admirably suited. He's against automatic weapons, and feels that only people willing to go through a lot of trouble (like, say, bodyguards) should be able to GET semi-automatics.

wolfix said:

The town I grew up in was a union town. It was very prosperous. The union jobs were replaced by other types of jobs. Jobs so bad we had to import labor from other countries. This town is now a [censored].

Er, yes. This is called "Someone Is Willing To Do This Cheaper Than You Are". It's not as if anyone's obligated to pay you any more than the minimum wage for a job made reduntant either by better technology or foriegn workers.

Seeing as how General Motors keeps closing its plants, while Toyota's are running strong (and Union-friendly,) I'm a Toyota fan. However, even if they were made in Taiwan, I'd buy a Toyota anyway - they're much more reliable.

I have this on good authority from the three automotive garages within a mile of my house. All of them are run by guys over 60, and while the forms of maintenance they do are different, all agree that Japanese cars are now, as a rule of thumb, superior.

Today, it would appear that the level of quality control in Toyota plants is high enough that it requires well-educated employees, making it cost-effective to have factories in the United States. On the other hand, having visited a General Motors plant last year, I was decidedly nonplussed with the assembly line - they still have people manually attaching the rear windows!

Bro Deal said:

Ironic that the unions support the Dems and the Dems support unrestricted illegal immigration, which has led to the destruction of high paying jobs in industries like meat packing.

No. No, we don't. That's absolute BS.

We do, however, support a higher minimum wage, nasty taxes for the extremely wealthy, and putting restrictions on outsourcing.

Strictly speaking, there are no high-paying jobs in meatpacking. It's a job that, though unpleasant, requires no formal education, and must be done cheaply to maintain a margin of profit on today's low-cost bologna.

Bro Deal said:

It's a failure of the corporate governance model. The stock holders have less control over the executives than the proletariat did in the U.S.S.R. Certainly the election of the boards of directors is no more legitimate.

To put it very simply, moving work overseas means that shareholders make more money. If parts cost 10% less, profits - and, hence, dividends - skyrocket. It's not really very complex.

Bro Deal said:

I am not so sure. This is not the 70s. The youth in this country are blissfully clueless. There is a huge segment of America that has just tuned out. It makes me question whether democracy is workable in a society that is awash in propaganda and the people lack the knowledge and critical thinking skills to determine the truth. MM seems to speak to the ex-hippies who sold out and are now living in the suburbs, drinking swill from Charbux, driving Bimmers, and dreaming of the time they fought The Man.

A good friend of mine is disabled. Though she got poor grades in high school, she became an apprentice electrician, and got good marks - only finding out near the completion of the program that she has cerebal palsy, and cannot safely work.

Now, she can't get a job with insurance, and desperately needs surgery for a gallbladder problem. And, to be quite honest, I would'nt mind having a few hundred of my dollars every year go towards paying for surgery on those who cannot otherwise afford it.

Also, most of the Michael Moore fans I know were not even alive in the 70s.

the big three, specifically GM, are having a hell of a time because of health care costs. that is the real reason they are suffering.

as far as moore goes... he is sooo full of [censored]. anyone that buys his propaganda is a person with limited critical thinking skills. strike that. only absolute ignorant idiots could respect or be sympathetic to anything moore produces.

he needs to get on a bike, one that wont buckle under his massive load.

After reading this thread I understand much better why Bush was reelected president 😄

wolfix said:

MM does not make the middle class American's even sweat. The only people here in America that even know who he is are basically the young and the people who follow politics closely.
The middle class is what drives a country. The poor are a drain upon it's resources and the weathy use far more then it should.
Someone needs to tell Detroit that buying a Toyota or a Honda is good for America. You drank the kool-aid if you believe that.
The town I grew up in was a union town. It was very prosperous. The union jobs were replaced by other types of jobs. Jobs so bad we had to import labor from other countries. This town is now a [censored].

COULD NOT agree more. The same exact thing happened to my town.