Motoring and trolls



Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:29:38 +0000, Simon Brooke
> <[email protected]> said in
> <[email protected]>:
>
>> Yup, but the helmet debate has been done to death, all the positions
>> have been advanced ad nauseam. No-one who has taken part is going to
>> change their opinion

>
> That is provably false. Ask anyone who remembers my first helmet
> thread on here.



As so often in so many spheres, it is the converts who are the most zealous!

pk
 
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 14:36:37 +0000, "Just zis Guy, you know?"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>>Yup, but the helmet debate has been done to death, all the positions have
>>been advanced ad nauseam. No-one who has taken part is going to change
>>their opinion

>
>That is provably false. Ask anyone who remembers my first helmet
>thread on here.


I have changed my mind twice!

First I had the opinion that compulsion was wrong, but that helmet use
should be encouraged as there were clear safety benefits to helmet
use.

Then I was convinced that there were no clear safety benefits to
helmet use, and that helmet use should be the result of an informed
choice by the cyclist or the cyclists' parents. I argued a closely
fought debate with my school's governors to leave helmet use as a
parental choice, not school policy for cycle training. I lost the
argument.

Having now given playground and on-road training to about 60 children,
I believe the governors were right to insist on compulsory helmet use
for children. A risk assessment gives the following:

1. For complete novices, there is a high risk of a low speed fall in
the playground. Helmets may reduce the risk of any fall by giving the
novice cyclist confidence and thereby reducing the training time. For
low speed falls, onto a level surface, helmets are most effective and
can reduce the severity of any head injury.
2. On the road there is a very low risk of a collision between a
moving vehicle and a cyclist. Helmets will do nothing to reduce the
risk of a collision and little, if anything, to reduce the severity of
any injury caused by a vehicle.
3. On the road there is a low risk of a new cyclist falling of their
own accord. Any fall is likely to be at a low speed, and, although
doing nothing to help prevent a fall, a helmet is likely to be
effective at reducing the severity of any head injury.
4. On the road there is a medium risk of two cyclists colliding. A
collision of this type is most likely to be at low speed and may well
be at the kerb, for example when stopping at the roadside. A low
impact fall onto a kerb can be particularly dangerous and a helmet may
reduce the severity of any injury.
5. At low speeds the risk of clouded judgments due to the head
overheating is negligible.
6. The risk of rotational neck injury as a result of wearing a helmet
is real, but the possible protection offered by a helmet almost
certainly far outweighs the risks.
7. There is nothing to suggest that compulsory helmet use has detered
a single child from taking part in cycle training at the school,
although one child has commented that having to wear a high visibility
tabard was not "exactly a fashion statement". She still enjoyed the
training!
 
in message <[email protected]>, Just zis Guy,
you know? ('[email protected]') wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:29:38 +0000, Simon Brooke
> <[email protected]> said in
> <[email protected]>:
>
>>Yup, but the helmet debate has been done to death, all the positions
>>have been advanced ad nauseam. No-one who has taken part is going to
>>change their opinion

>
> That is provably false. Ask anyone who remembers my first helmet
> thread on here.


Mine too. That's why I said 'who has taken part'. People who haven't yet
taken part tend to take the effectiveness of helmets at face value,
which is why each time a new newbie comes along with the opinion you and
I once shared, some/ONE/ needs to respond with pointers to where to find
out more. One. Not /every/one. For a 900 post thread to repeat itself
each time seems otiose to me.

However, if I'm not with the concensus here, I'll withdraw on this point.

--
[email protected] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; when in the ****, the wise man plants courgettes
 
Just zis Guy, you know? came up with the following;:
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:31:57 -0000, "Paul - ***"
> <[email protected]> said in <[email protected]>:
>
>> If everyone 'knows' who these trolls are, why can't you post their names?

>
> Checking my killfile for this group: MattB, John D'oh, mm, and various
> nyms of the Monkeypoxers. Plus uk.tosspot crossposters: the Nugentoid
> of Kager IV and "Mr Bitsy", for example.
>
> But most of them are on "mark read" rather than delete (that's
> reserved for the likes of JPoulos and F.Golightly, who I don't think
> came here). Plus any thread initiated by Mike Corley reposting his
> asinine nonsense (also not seen here).


LOL, we've seen similar trolls then ... ;)

--
Paul ...
(8(|) Homer Rules ..... Doh !!!
ebay 8023391484
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
>
> Yes, I /know/ a good argument is fun, particularly when you are
> frustrated or bored. But this group is /not/ an appropriate place. It's
> my opinion that this group is valuable, to me at least. If you agree
> with me, please help keep it lively, vibrant and useful.
>


I wish you luck. One only has to look at the threads started recently
by MattB to see how easy people find it to accept your and others'
exhortations not to feed the trolls.

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham
 
Bertie Wiggins wrote:
>
> Having now given playground and on-road training to about 60 children,
> I believe the governors were right to insist on compulsory helmet use
> for children. A risk assessment gives the following:
>


Are you trying to start a helmet thread? ;-)

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham
 
Simon Brooke <[email protected]> wrote:

> I've been using Usenet for more than twenty years. In that time, I've had
> a number of 'home' groups, groups on which I've hung out and spent a
> fair bit of time. All of them, except this one, have been destroyed by
> trolls and are now moribund.

snip loads about trolls/troll baiters, and how this group has gone
downhill.

Totally agree, I've been reading this group for nearly 10 years now, but
rarely post now, as I just cant be arsed reading through some of the
**** that is posted.
This group used to be well worth reading, but it has descended into a
constant bickering about how bad drivers are.
If there are some cycling threads recently, could someone point them
out.(yes I know)
Alan.
--
To reply by e-mail, change the ' + ' to 'plus'.
 
Simon Brooke wrote:

> Yup, but the helmet debate has been done to death, all the positions
> have been advanced ad nauseam. No-one who has taken part is going to
> change their opinion; far more heat than light has been generated. We
> don't need to rehash it again, and again, and again.


You're presupposing that there can be no such thing as new blood. If the
incumbents have no desire to rehash it, then they're welcome to avoid
threads on the subject. Like I said, people who are new to this shouldn't be
denied the right to discuss and debate just because others before them have
done the same. If your approach were taken to its logical conclusion, all
discussion would eventually be FAQised and consigned to some reference file,
with the result that the ostensive reason for usenet's existence
(discussion, debate and enquiry) would vanish.


--
Wally
www.artbywally.com
www.wally.myby.co.uk
 
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:07:08 +0000, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Bertie Wiggins wrote:
>>
>> Having now given playground and on-road training to about 60 children,
>> I believe the governors were right to insist on compulsory helmet use
>> for children. A risk assessment gives the following:
>>

>
>Are you trying to start a helmet thread? ;-)


Tony started it by mentioning the H word - he did... he did...

Hurumph...

He did!
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> Bertie Wiggins wrote:
>>
>> Having now given playground and on-road training to about 60
>> children, I believe the governors were right to insist on compulsory
>> helmet use for children. A risk assessment gives the following:
>>

>
> Are you trying to start a helmet thread? ;-)


Not properly: he made a balanced and proportional assessment of the reasons
for and against the wearing of helmets, and did so uncontroversially. It's
like he cares about the issue.

--
Ambrose
 
Bertie Wiggins wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 17:07:08 +0000, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
>> Bertie Wiggins wrote:
>>> Having now given playground and on-road training to about 60 children,
>>> I believe the governors were right to insist on compulsory helmet use
>>> for children. A risk assessment gives the following:
>>>

>> Are you trying to start a helmet thread? ;-)

>
> Tony started it by mentioning the H word - he did... he did...
>
> Hurumph...
>
> He did!


You've been spending too much time in the playground ;-)

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham
 
Wally wrote:
>
> You're presupposing that there can be no such thing as new blood. If the
> incumbents have no desire to rehash it, then they're welcome to avoid
> threads on the subject. Like I said, people who are new to this shouldn't be
> denied the right to discuss and debate just because others before them have
> done the same. If your approach were taken to its logical conclusion, all
> discussion would eventually be FAQised and consigned to some reference file,
> with the result that the ostensive reason for usenet's existence
> (discussion, debate and enquiry) would vanish.
>


Indeed, both Guy and I changed our views quite drastically, partly as a
result of this newsgroup, in the not too distant past and Bertie is
still changing his by the sounds of it ;-)


--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham
 
Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>
>>
>> Are you trying to start a helmet thread? ;-)

>
> Not properly: he made a balanced and proportional assessment of the
> reasons for and against the wearing of helmets, and did so
> uncontroversially. It's like he cares about the issue.
>


I think you are confusing thread with troll - or are balanced and
proportional assessments not allowed in proper helmet threads?

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Are you trying to start a helmet thread? ;-)

>>
>> Not properly: he made a balanced and proportional assessment of the
>> reasons for and against the wearing of helmets, and did so
>> uncontroversially. It's like he cares about the issue.
>>

>
> I think you are confusing thread with troll - or are balanced and
> proportional assessments not allowed in proper helmet threads?


Well, they're quite rare, aren't they.

--
Ambrose
 
Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
> Tony Raven wrote:
>> Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are you trying to start a helmet thread? ;-)
>>>
>>> Not properly: he made a balanced and proportional assessment of the
>>> reasons for and against the wearing of helmets, and did so
>>> uncontroversially. It's like he cares about the issue.
>>>

>>
>> I think you are confusing thread with troll - or are balanced and
>> proportional assessments not allowed in proper helmet threads?

>
> Well, they're quite rare, aren't they.
>


Not at all. All the posts that agree with Guy and me are balanced and
proportional Its only the ones that don't that aren't ;-)

--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham
 
Tony Raven wrote:
> Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>> Tony Raven wrote:
>>> Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Are you trying to start a helmet thread? ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Not properly: he made a balanced and proportional assessment of the
>>>> reasons for and against the wearing of helmets, and did so
>>>> uncontroversially. It's like he cares about the issue.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I think you are confusing thread with troll - or are balanced and
>>> proportional assessments not allowed in proper helmet threads?

>>
>> Well, they're quite rare, aren't they.
>>

>
> Not at all. All the posts that agree with Guy and me are balanced and
> proportional Its only the ones that don't that aren't ;-)


My brother commutes with a broken helmet. I'm not sure why, but I think it
just saves the effort of making a decision not to wear one. He has young
children as well, so explaining it might be troublesome.

--
Ambrose
 
Simon Brooke wrote:
> I've been using Usenet for more than twenty years. In that time, I've
> had a number of 'home' groups, groups on which I've hung out and
> spent a fair bit of time. All of them, except this one, have been
> destroyed by trolls and are now moribund.
>
> And no, this isn't 'just me'. I admit I do occasionally make
> deliberately inflammatory posts, and much too often allow myself to
> get dragged into off-topic flame fests. But across Usenet there are
> hundreds of once useful, lively, vibrant groups which are now empty
> but for sporadic postings of spam.


It is winter, which does mean that cycling posts are a bit more sparse* and
tempers a bit more tight, but I don't think it's just you.

I'll remember the phrase "take it to uk.transport", and avoid the temptation
to try and fight off the trolls.

Hope you're feeling better tomorrow, as well, if this was prompted by
grouchiness. Think of it as productive grouchiness, anyway.
--
Ambrose

*I _must_ go for a ride tomorrow. I was out a bit last week and it was
excellent.
 
On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 18:18:18 +0000, Tony Raven <[email protected]>
wrote:

>>>>> Are you trying to start a helmet thread? ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Not properly: he made a balanced and proportional assessment of the
>>>> reasons for and against the wearing of helmets, and did so
>>>> uncontroversially. It's like he cares about the issue.


This is heavy!

Many times I've considered the tragedy to cycle training if a child
were to be lost to the wheels of a juggernaut.

I cannot even bear to think of the personal tragedy to me if I were to
be responsible for the child's care at the time of such a loss.

I continue with the belief that children are safer cycling with me
than they would be driven too and from school by their parents, and
statistically, children are even safer outside school with their
teachers than they are in school. Nevertheless, my heart misses a
beat every time I see a child unexpectedly swerve to the right of
primary position or turn in front of a car when I haven't seen the
driver wave them on.

>>> I think you are confusing thread with troll - or are balanced and
>>> proportional assessments not allowed in proper helmet threads?

>>
>> Well, they're quite rare, aren't they.
>>

>
>Not at all. All the posts that agree with Guy and me are balanced and
>proportional Its only the ones that don't that aren't ;-)


Come on, Tony. How does my risk assessment stand up to your scrutiny?
Take the bait or agree there is still more to be got out of yet
another helmet thread. After all, you started it! :p
 
Just zis Guy, you know? wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Dec 2005 13:29:38 +0000, Simon Brooke
> <[email protected]> said in
> <[email protected]>:
>
> >Yup, but the helmet debate has been done to death, all the positions have
> >been advanced ad nauseam. No-one who has taken part is going to change
> >their opinion

>
> That is provably false. Ask anyone who remembers my first helmet
> thread on here.
>
> Guy


I too changed my mind thanks to URC.
 
Bertie Wiggins wrote:
>
> Come on, Tony. How does my risk assessment stand up to your scrutiny?
> Take the bait or agree there is still more to be got out of yet
> another helmet thread. After all, you started it! :p


My lips are sealed by edict of Simon ;-[]


--
Tony

"The best way I know of to win an argument is to start by being in the
right."
- Lord Hailsham