My First Time Trial

Sweet. Well done! So what kind of bike were you riding? A road rig with aero bars? Just curious.

I have a kestrel talon with drop bars and clip on aero extensions.

Nice effort, well done!

Thanks guys!

Great result and a nice time too. A middling 23 is about 25.5mph over 10 miles. Very nice!!!

swampy1970 said:

Great result and a nice time too. A middling 23 is about 25.5mph over 10 miles. Very nice!!!

I was very happy with the result. I have zero experience though, that time is respectable?

quenya said:

... that time is respectable?

Nice job, that time is very respectable, especially for a first time TT without all the aero accessories. Very well done!

-Dave

Great job, Quenya! 😎

great story...awesome job keep it up😄

daveryanwyoming said:

Nice job, that time is very respectable, especially for a first time TT without all the aero accessories. Very well done!

-Dave

This got me wondering which aero gear gives the greatest return? Certainly I have a lot of work to do on the engine but my position on the bike is, I think, pretty good. I try to keep my head low and my back flat. My frame is an 'aero road bike' with a 2 position seat post I use the higher more forward position and raise the mast for rides with the aero bars. My wheels are Mavic Askiums with bladed spokes and they are heavy!

I'm considering TT helmet, skinsuit, shoe covers, and maybe way down the line light-ish deep-ish section rims and a rear wheel cover vs. Disc rear. Price is very much a concern so I'm interested in most bang for the buck.

quenya said:

This got me wondering which aero gear gives the greatest return?.. .

IIRC, the order of importance based on work by the folks at the MIT wind tunnel, Cervelo, Specialized, Cobb and others is something like:

- Rider position (this is the huge one and usually takes some work beyond just clipping on aero bars at whatever stem height and reach you happen to have on your road bike)
- Aero helmet
- Skinsuit
- Deep dish front wheel
- Deep dish or better yet full disc or covered rear wheel (my fastest 40K to date was set with a plastic wheel cover, I haven't put it together to beat that time with an actual disc yet, YMMV)

And somewhere in there would be aero booties, no gloves and a water bottle (perhaps empty) on the down tube (?, might be seat tube gotta check the MIT results) if you're riding a round tubed bike.

I might not have the order exactly right, but I do remember that the aero helmet is way up on the list and a much better bang for your buck than fancy wheels. But realistically the best place to spend effort is on your position, search the forums for Andy's 'neanderthal positioning' posts. Getting really agressive with a road bike usually means a deep drop or adjustable stem for time trial days and or clip on aero bars with very low pad to basebar height. Road bikes have relatively tall head tubes relative to dedicated TT bikes so you generally have to work hard to get lower your front end enough to reduce your frontal area.

-Dave

quenya said:

I was very happy with the result. I have zero experience though, that time is respectable?

A very respectable time.

You mentioned aero goodies...

The rider presents the biggest obsticle and not the bike - and thankfully, those bits are the cheapest - you have a set of tri bars already, work on refining the position and maybe spend a bit of time getting used to riding in it.

Aero helmet, skinsuit and shoe covers can be had for not a lot of money depending on how fancy you want to go. You could pick up the new Giro aero potty for just over $160, a lycra skinsuit for just under $100 (fancy stuff like Assoss or Pearl Izumi are closer to $300 - but still a very good return in investment when up against a carbon disk with powertap in it). Pearl Izumi do a TT specific glove - but it's just as fast riding without.

If you start to get serious about TT's then I'd opt for the frame before the wheels. You can always borrow, rent or buy wheels but adapting to a frame that puts you in a better TT position takes a bit of getting used too. While the aero shapes used on high end TT frames are cool and do save time, the big advantage is that you'll get lower with more comfort than you can on most road frames.

I'm sure there'll be a Cervelo P5 out soon, which means that the fashionable folk will be offloading P3's like they're covered in doggie doo... eBay is your friend. The earlier Cervelo P2 is hardly shabby and can be had for a steal.

Wheels. Disk covers are fairly cheap and should work with your PT but the front wheel is where the big time saving is at. If you can only afford to buy one really good TT wheel then get the front first...

... but nothing sounds as good as a carbon disk with Conti tubs on there pumped to 170psi. :love

I'm sure there's a horror story about wireless PT's not working with disk wheel covers :P

Speaking of TT frames - Dave, with regards to USAC events, what's the scoop on allowed frames? Is there any UCI type restriction on things like saddle position, etc?

swampy1970 said:

Speaking of TT frames - Dave, with regards to USAC events, what's the scoop on allowed frames? Is there any UCI type restriction on things like saddle position, etc?

Yeah, the UCI as usual makes things tougher but in the states that mostly applies to NRC events and nationals, local and even most state level events don't bother with strict UCI compliance. Here's some of the stuff that UCI limits:

- Saddle tip setback 5cm or more from the BB centerline. There's a 'morphological' exception you can take that allows the tip to go all the way to the BB centerline (but not in front of it) as long as a plumb bob from your knee is at or behind the pedal spindle in the 3 oclock pedal position (KOPS). You can get creative during the morph test by sliding back in the saddle to satisfy the KOPS requirement. The Adamo saddles with their short twin tips buys you a handful of extra cms because they're so short which is nice if you like the way they fit.

- Bar ends measured at shifter axles no more than 75cm in front of the BB centerline. Again there's a morph exception that allows up to 80cm of bar reach from BB centerline as long as the elbow angle is 120 degrees or less. Again you can get creative with saddle position during morph testing. As of 2010 you can take one morph exception or the other but not both.

- No wheel covers in strict UCI events but USAC rules explicitly allow wheel covers.

- You've gotta be able to slide a credit card between the rear wheel and the frame so no running the wheel up into the channel created by curved seat posts to effectively 'fare in' the rear wheel. There's got to be a small gap. Enforcement on this one has been somewhat random in recent years.

- All tubes, structural parts, aerobars, etc. have to have an aspect ratio of 3:1 or less. This basically obsoleted a ton of very good aerobar assemblies that are flatter and thinner than 3:1 so it pays to know which qualify and which don't if UCI compliance matters to you. Some aero bike frames also exceed the 3:1 limits so they're no good either.

- Bike must have a traditional double diamond form, compact is fine but no Y bikes or Softrides or the bikes missing seat tubes with the open middle section.

- Same size front and back wheels so no more funny bikes with the small front wheels.

I'm certain there's more stuff like the rules they introduced to eliminate Obree's original 'egg' position but those are the big ones.

Bottom line, I've never seen an official test any of this at state championships or weekend racing but if you want to race nationals and NRC events it's worth a read through the rulebook.

-Dave

Thanks for that Dave.

I figured from the bits and pieces I've read that's pretty much what I gathered with regards to national and local events.

There's a local event in a few weeks that I thought about doing just to force me to start some high intensity work. Pushing up the FTP is starting to slow via the hard long intervals, so it's time to drag to the FTP up via the scruff of it's neck and rip it's 'head' off.

I think after doing 6 months on and 6 months off and just doing long hard intervals over 4 years or so it time to do some really hard work... Just need a little motivation - and nothing says barf-o-matic like a short distance time trial.

Almost as much 'fun' as it'll be trying to use the powercranks in full tt tuck... Coming soon to Americas funniest video

I know what you mean about how tough it is to get the bars low enough to be really helpful on a road bike. I have my stem as low as it'll go, with my aero clip-ons below the handlebar and the elbow cradle pads wrapped around the handlebar. The cradles themselves on a shelf somewhere. I realize that I am the least aerodynamic part of the equation but it's good to know I can get a few items to help out for not a huge expense. I may buy a new stem to help get my front lower at some point but as I said my positioning now is pretty good and I want to do as much as I can now as it will be a while before I can get together funds for another bike, the wife gets the next bike I bring home.

I've been doing Z4 work in my aero position, 2x20s or a few times 4x20s, twice a week, sometimes thrice, for about 6 weeks. Before that was Kaiser training. And my speed on the flats has improved a lot in what feels like a very short time, I'm not convinced I need to change anything but I was wondering if you guys thought I'd benefit from adding VO2 max workouts and how best to do that.

Dave are you by any chance related to Jim Ryan, a cyclist here in Fresno?

quenya said:

...I'm not convinced I need to change anything but I was wondering if you guys thought I'd benefit from adding VO2 max workouts and how best to do that....

No doubt some dedicated L5 work in the annual schedule is very helpful for racing. A lot of races come down to make or break 3 to 8 minute efforts that benefit from L5 work and it can help 'pull up' your FTP by raising your aerobic ceiling if you've been at the L4 and SST stuff for a long time. It also helps 'recalibrate' RPE in the sense that L4 work and below will feel very different after a block of L5 training.

But you generally have to give away some L4/SST/Tempo time to fit in and recover from the L5 work and as great as it can be, the longer duration efforts are where most folks will see the greatest benefit. So if you add a day of L5 you'll almost certainly drop out a day of L4 and your weekly TSS and with it your CTL will drop. That can be a really good plan as you approach important events but I'm not sure I'd introduce a lot of L5 work in mid August unless you've got some fall events lined up. Sure a session here and there can still be useful but I probably wouldn't make it a weekly thing at the expense of L4/SST work unless there's some specific events coming up that you're targeting.

Quoted post said:

...Dave are you by any chance related to Jim Ryan, a cyclist here in Fresno?

Nope, but looking at some CVC race results I see some old cycling team mates are still getting after it in the berg. Fresno is really a good location for riding with plenty of flats, the foothills and even big Sierra climbs close by. Just too bloody hot in the summer but at least it teaches you to ride early.

Good on ya for figuring out the 'low hanging' approach to clip on aero bars. I used to do something similar with Profile T2+ bars where I'd hang 'em under and use extra risers to get the pads just above the base bars. Look around for a deal on a new or used Oval Concepts A700 adjustable stem or even the Forte (Performance) adjustable road stem. Either design is real easy to adjust with a single allen wrench without removing the bars or reclamping the stem. Forget about the Ritchey adjustable as you have to take apart the stem clamp every time you want to adjust the angle which is a pain. A decent adjustable stem can let you maintain your current dialed in road position and drop the front end a bunch for time trials. Sure a dedicated TT frame is better so you can jump right on it and train a couple of days a week and really dial in the position but there are low cost alternatives.

Good luck,
-Dave

I will check out, and likely pick up, one of those stems. That sounds perfect, thanks.

I'll also hold off any dedicated L5 work until winter or early spring as I will start racing Cat 5 next season, and I loathe the thought of giving up my L4 or tempo rides.

I think Fresno was purpose built for cycling, I don't know how long you've been away but the town has been spreading north when I was a kid Herndon seemed like the north end of town, now I live on Nees and my buddies live near willow and copper so those foothills are just a warm up spin away. And the summers are not as hot as they used to be, I've been doing much of my training after work this year and it's been tolerable. My wife works nights and sleeps in on her days off so often we ride late morning or early afternoon and it's been fine. I think I skipped one ride due to heat this year.

Quenya: Fine work on your first TT. There are, as Dave hints at, many, many variables in the TT performance envelope and the balance between aerodynamics and power. Getting that balance right can involve a healthy bit of trial and error, but it is well worth the effort.

Dave & other reading: You all know I'm a big TT enthusiast and I've got a few q's as I finalize preparation for two big TT's.

1 - I'm positively certain that riding the stripe or paint if you like, results in getting a slightly lower Crr. My problem is holding a straight line while very low in the TT position. Any tips on how to keep the bike in as straight a line as possible while riding? The rare times when I've managed to hold the stripe for more than a few seconds, I observe a slight but distinct increase in speed.

2 - Have any of you experimented with "shrugging" the shoulders upwards to more or less reduce the breadth of your shoulders while low in the TT position? Any idea what that might be worth, if anything, in terms of reduced Cd x FA ? I've been doing that lately while on the trainer with a mirror in front and can see my FA seems to get ever so smaller but my Chung VE tests haven't been able to ferret out the difference. FWIW, I'm presently on about 0.22 but expect to drop that a bit with some extra goodies that are on the way.

3 - As a corollary to point 2, has anyone tested the effect on Cd x FA, of a windscreen on your aero helmet? Any practical issues (vision, foggy visor, sweating, heat, etc) related to using a visor? I currently don't have a visor and have opted to skip on sunglasses in my TT's, as I find they slip down and get drenched in sweat.