need spring-energy-storage mechanism

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

I have been thinking along the same lines.
Compressed air or chemical batteries appear to be real
loosers due to the heat loss.

Mechanical springs or flywheels would seem to offer a lot
more efficiency. Flywheels have to be heavy
or fast. Neither characteristic is very attractive for a vehicle.

1) How hot does the spring get when it is cycled?
2) How many times can the spring be cycled 'till fatigue
diminishes its capacity?

With that information, it should be easy to compare the
energy density with other mechanisms.

A few haphazard google searches hasn't offered up the answers
to those questions in the manner to which I become accustomed
so I may have to dust off some old texts like "How to do
research" or "Real work as a moral virtue" >:-)

Sue...

Use a blimp.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

[email hidden] wrote in news:1180432406.155025.128400
@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

A Flying fox. Used in Italy to get supplies to and from mountain tops.

Two cables, one pulley, two carriers and a long bit of rope.

Ron Hardin said:

Use a blimp.

That seems commercially feasible for the logging
industry but only a few bicycle sheds will accomodate
a blimp without knocking out a few walls.

Sue...

Quoted message said:

--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

Greg Locock said:

[email hidden] wrote in news:1180432406.155025.128400
@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

Quoted message said:

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

A Flying fox. Used in Italy to get supplies to and from mountain tops.

Two cables, one pulley, two carriers and a long bit of rope.

Fantastic! Throw a few clothes-pins in the package
and it is also a clothes dryer for sweaty cycle shorts.

Sue...

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

This is a surprisingly tough wish. It would have a huge world-wide
market with any cyclist who would like to get back a little sweat
equity from freewheeling down hill - on the next uphill stretch.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

Gasoline motor.

Nobody's yet found an effective way to store as much energy as that,
in as little weight. Commercially available, cheap, practical.

Any other system is going to cost you more in time, money, and weight,
than it will ever repay in work done, otherwise the world would be
well equipped with just such devices.

Anything that recovers energy on the down trip will cost more to carry
back up.

If time spent should be cost effective, you are already over budget
for the time spent considering such foolishness.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

A trailer would be trying to pass the bicycle on the way down if you
are winding a spring - regenerative braking style.

Probably too high tech for low value goods on mountain tops . . . but
there are several experimenter's using something called
ultracapacitors for energy storage on bicycles. This idea has been
around since the first ultra caps hit the market.

http://gltrs.grc.nasa.gov/cgi-bin/GLTRS/browse.pl?2002/TM-2002-211792.html

NASA note with link to 32 page brief

Excerpt:
The E-Bike is a state of the art, ground up, hybrid electric bicycle.
Unique features of the vehicle's power system include the use of an
efficient, 400 watt, electric hub motor and a 7-speed derailleur
system that permits operation as fully electric, fully pedal, or a
combination of the two. Other innovative features, such as
regenerative braking through ultracapacitor energy storage, are
planned. Regenerative braking recovers much of the kinetic energy of
the vehicle during deceleration. The E-bike has previously been tested
with the standard battery energy storage system, a symmetric
ultracapacitor energy storage system, and a combination battery and
symmetric ultracapacitor energy storage system. The focus of this
report is the test results of the E-bike with asymmetric
ultracapacitor energy storage and comparison to the other energy
storage systems. The report concludes that the E-Bike provides
excellent performance and that the implementation of asymmetric
ultracapacitors in the power system can provide significant
performance improvements.

Search on bicycle and ultracapacitor - there's more info on the web
--

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

A cable system with pulleys top and bottom. Two or more cargo
carrying buckets. Weight of full bucket pulls cargo down and takes
empty bucket up.

If the cargo can't be suspended over the ground, you could still add
wheels to the buckets to let them roll over the high points.

You still have to get people up there to fill buckets - unless you can
get the bats to deposit the guano into the bucket (just kidding).

Perhaps the worker could ride an empty bucket up and just take a taut
cable to ride down (McGuiver style) when his shift is over.

Lot less hassle than bicycles and springs. Low tech with commonly
available parts.
--

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

On Tue, 29 May 2007 12:47:29 GMT, Trevor Jones <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Gasoline motor.

Nobody's yet found an effective way to store as much energy as that,
in as little weight. Commercially available, cheap, practical.

Any other system is going to cost you more in time, money, and weight,
than it will ever repay in work done, otherwise the world would be
well equipped with just such devices.

Anything that recovers energy on the down trip will cost more to carry
back up.

If time spent should be cost effective, you are already over budget
for the time spent considering such foolishness.

Cheers
Trevor Jones

Not necessarily. The fallacy in your logic is that you are ignoring
the stored kinetic energy already in the weight on top of the
mountain. Everyone is thinking in terms of lifting it up and carrying
it down the mountain.

The op has already put the idea of bicycles, trailers, springs and
other wishful or incredibly complex systems in everyone's mind.

Start at the beginning. You have a weight on top of a mountain, how
do you get it down the mountain?

Throw it off and let it roll down if you can - simple and not too
costly. Parachute? high wire? ground dragging, low wire?

I'd have to see the mountain, but I'll bet there's an easier cheaper
way to do it that doesn't involve a lot of technology or fuel.
--

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Greg Locock said:

[email hidden] wrote in news:1180432406.155025.128400
@n15g2000prd.googlegroups.com:

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

Quoted message said:

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

A Flying fox. Used in Italy to get supplies to and from mountain tops.

Two cables, one pulley, two carriers and a long bit of rope.

One cable.

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

A Toyota Prius will convert and store the energy... of which will get
it part way back up the mountain... But the important point is that
the gravitational energy available from the commodity will be used to
help get the transport back up the mountain.

The physics problem: Calculate the energy available and compare with the
energy needs.

In message <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] writes

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

I wouldn't want to go ANYWHERE NEAR a spring that contained that sort of
stored energy. A big clock spring contains a few tens of foot-pounds of
energy, and if it lets go in the wrong place at the wrong time can do
enormous damage. You are talking about something with foot-tons of
energy associated with a very thin metal "blade" many, many feet long.
Riding the bike would be like riding a potential bomb.

Sound like all you really need is an electric bicycle with regenerative
braking. Down the mountain with the brakes on will charge the batteries,
riding back up will discharge them.

A quick Google got me http://www.valuride.com/ebikes_2007_500a.htm. One
of those, or the core components (Motor, batteries and regenerative
braking system) sounds a MUCH SAFER bet.

--
Peter R Cook

default said:

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

Quoted message said:

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

Quoted message said:

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

Quoted message said:

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Quoted message said:

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Quoted message said:

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

A cable system with pulleys top and bottom. Two or more cargo
carrying buckets. Weight of full bucket pulls cargo down and takes
empty bucket up.

If the cargo can't be suspended over the ground, you could still add
wheels to the buckets to let them roll over the high points.

You still have to get people up there to fill buckets - unless you can
get the bats to deposit the guano into the bucket (just kidding).

Perhaps the worker could ride an empty bucket up and just take a taut
cable to ride down (McGuiver style) when his shift is over.

Lot less hassle than bicycles and springs. Low tech with commonly
available parts.
--

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----http://www.newsfeeds.comThe #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are various railway systems around the world that work on that
principle: two cars linked to a cable, running up and down, sometimes
on a single railway with a cleverly-engineered passing lane in the
middle. If the weight of the payload is sufficient to overcome the
friction in the system, little additional energy would be required.

Careful attention must be paid to the need to stop the payload at the
bottom.

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time.

Which product, how far up the mountain is this location and how steep
is the climb.

Quoted message said:

there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

Doesn't seem to be viable at the outset.

Quoted message said:

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions.

Assuming you can find a spring large enough to power 250 pounds of
bicycle and rider up the hill you will have several kinds of losses.

Winding the spring will take consume energy to spin the geared down
winding train and slide the coils against one-another. Same losses
apply going up the hill. The huge spring and gear train will weigh
maybe 50 pounds and consume energy as it is moved around. Making this
oversized clock mechamism will involve custom rolling for the spring
and machine work for the spring housing and gear train. In short it
will represent a considerable amount of up-front money.

Consider enhancing the local economy and pay local boys by the bushel
delivered.

Alternatively you might think about a self-propelled hot air baloon.

Quoted message said:

Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold.

A capacitor????? How about a storage battery.

Quoted message said:

The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure.

Quoted message said:

Time spent should be cost-effective.

????

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

There's a traditional scheme (used in Virginia a century or two back)
where the harvest was put aboard a barge (or raft?) and sent
downriver.
At the lowland dock, the grain was sold, the barge disassembled and
sold as lumber, and the farmer/boatman took his cash home on foot.

Best solution might be as simple as resigning oneself to walking the
bike back
up the hill. If the road isn't well-maintained, the rider is the
best
mechanism to do that climb, and you can fuel the rider with the cash.

whit3rd said:

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

There's a traditional scheme (used in Virginia a century or two back)
where the harvest was put aboard a barge (or raft?) and sent
downriver.
At the lowland dock, the grain was sold, the barge disassembled and
sold as lumber, and the farmer/boatman took his cash home on foot.

Best solution might be as simple as resigning oneself to walking the
bike back
up the hill. If the road isn't well-maintained, the rider is the
best
mechanism to do that climb, and you can fuel the rider with the cash.

The OP had not made it clear how far is the "top on the mountain" source
and the "place where it is sold" destination.

There is just a poor reference to "not enough to pay for very much
transport."

If the "existing paved road" is 2 miles, human transport is OK, 200
miles (uphill) would cost a bunch.

Technology will not solve this problem.

donald

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?

the scenario is: a slightly-valuable commodity originates at the top
of a mountain. More or less a bushel at a time. there is an existing
paved road. the commodity fetches a price, but not enough to pay for
very much transport.

the concept is to use a cargo bicycle, maybe with trailer, to carry
the items down to the bottom of the mountain, "winding up the clock"
on the spring-storage.

at the bottom, the load is transferred to buyers. the now very-much-
lighter bicycle is to be driven UP the mountain, using the stored
energy.

Any cat which will catch the mice is fine with me. I'm just thinking
that anything involving electricity, hydraulic fluids, etc, will be
too involved, and losses throguh two conversions. Capacitor storage
might be feasible, if there's high quality ones being sold. The charge
doesn't need to held for long amounts of time. Down the hill, then
back up.

Ideally, this will be a ready-to-go or mostly ready-to-go
commercial item. I am rather mechanically/electrically handy. But
this is business, not pleasure. Time spent should be cost-effective.

I'd recommend an electric bicycle with regenerative braking. Most of the
other solutions are going to require quite a bit of R&D and investment.
Electric bikes are (pretty much) off the shelf technology.

--
Paul Hovnanian [email hidden]
------------------------------------------------------------------
Speed is n0 subsittute fo accurancy.

On Tue, 29 May 2007 12:47:29 GMT, Trevor Jones <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

i think i need a spring energy-storage mechanism. Maybe a very large
wind-up clock motor?...

Quoted message said:

Gasoline motor.

Nobody's yet found an effective way to store as much energy as that,
in as little weight. Commercially available, cheap, practical.

....

Quoted message said:

Trevor Jones

I used to see bike motors with friction drive on the tire tread, and
also a fancier power-wheel with engine built in.
I see these fellows making a come back.

I like the kei-trucks from Japan, and I also see some motor scooters
designed Lambretta style - but without the fairings, right now.

Brian Whatcott Altus OK