Ordering a Trek 5200

"basjan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

What a rant and a rave, Spider!

Yeah? Just wait to hear me talk about top-posting over 350+ lines of conversation!

Sheesh.

Quoted message said:

Fact is, LBS's are small businesses with high overhead (space and equipment). Most of them charge
fairly standard mark-ups, as "standardized" by either MSRP info or software that help determine
margins.

I'm curious as to why you might think that I don't know this? In any profit situation, there is room
to move on price, by definition. The only exception: where the profit on the item is $0.01. I'm
talking about PROFIT, not markup from wholesale price.

Quoted message said:

Ever seen a super-rich bike shop owner? Think the lack of these are due to poor business skills?
No way, most bike shops have very little room to bargain with as far as bikes go.

I'm sure. And if I ask, they can say "no." Quite simple, and everybody is clear.

Quoted message said:

Sure they try to make something off the top (i.e. profit), and sure they are hoping that the parts
and service will help make up for this.

I'm not arguing any of this. I'm unclear as to why you are bringing it up.

Quoted message said:

I also buy a lot of stuff online, I simply cannot afford to pay, e.g., $50 when I can get
something for $35 (old "I'm a student" issue!), but that does not infer that bike shops are
extremely expensive, it means that they are in the unfortunate position that online retailers are
undercutting them heavily in almost all but service and bike fitting areas.

So, for some bicycle enthusiasts, on-line purchasing might be the better way to go?

Or asking for a discount at an LBS on a full bike, one that does not require fitting and adjusting
as "part of the price?" (Since I can do that myself.)

Quoted message said:

So, if you go into a bike shop with a "but I can get it 30% cheaper online"-attitude, what's the
guy supposed to do, sell it to you at near to his cost?

Alright, what the hell are you talking about now? I don't go in with any attitude. I go in to make a
transaction, and ask about a discount. I don't bring up online pricing, or any of that. Why on earth
are you trying to put words in my mouth?

Quoted message said:

I think not...so yes, as some have stated, you are welcome to ask politely, and he is welcome to
politely say no.

I have stated that myself. So, what new information are you trying to impart?

Quoted message said:

But please don't act as if the shop owner is playing hard to get.

LOL. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Best to just shut up now, before you make
yourself look even more silly.

The logical fallacy exposed here is the "strawman."

Spider

"Spider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

LOL. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Best to just shut up now, before you make
yourself look even more silly.

The logical fallacy exposed here is the "strawman."

Spider

I think you're the one wide in the open for target practice... here's looking at you kid...

"Spider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah? Just wait to hear me talk about top-posting over 350+ lines of conversation!

As if I give a hoot whether or not I am treading on your delicate sense of etiquette - the idea here
is to inform you that there are more to the bike shop business than meets the eye (from experience)

Quoted message said:

In any profit situation, there is room to move on price, by definition.

The

Quoted message said:

only exception: where the profit on the item is $0.01. I'm talking about PROFIT, not markup from
wholesale price.

Now this is truly amazing - does this go for your line of work as well? Can't be doing that good.

Quoted message said:

So, for some bicycle enthusiasts, on-line purchasing might be the better way to go?

Again you missed the point - buy where you want, but don't think shop mark-ups are ripping you off.
There is a lot that comes into play when you are an online retailer vs. a LBS (already discussed)

Quoted message said:

Or asking for a discount at an LBS on a full bike, one that does not require fitting and adjusting
as "part of the price?" (Since I can do that myself.)

That well-known shop sign comes to mind: Cost of service - $20; if you watch $50; if you help $100.
I think it implies that some customers are just plain scary...

Quoted message said:

LOL. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Best to just shut up now, before you make
yourself look even more silly.

Nice going Spider - I'll say goodbye with that, many more interesting and logical posts and
DISCUSSION on this newsgroup.

rec.bicycles.tech Re: Ordering a Trek 5200

"Jason Spaceman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

After test driving various road bikes I am thinking about ordering a 2004 Trek 5200 from my LBS
(they don't have a 2003 5200 in my size so I have to order next year's model). The price should
come out to about $3500 Canadian, give or take a hundred dollars or so.

Would I be pushing my luck if I asked the dealer to knock a couple hundred bucks off the price, or
kick in a decent pair of pedals for free (say Speedplay X2's or something)? It's been awhile since
I last bought a new bike, back in Sept. 1997 to be exact. And I remember back then the shop
knocked $400 off the price of the bike, mind you it was near the end of the season when many shops
usually mark down prices anyways.

It wouldn't be pushing your luck on a bike that expensive, but you should carefully phrase your
request. Offer to buy the bike at the full price if they throw in the pedals. Special orders are
no-risk for the shop when you pay in advance, unlike them having to finance inventory. I was going
to order a Trek T300 from a local shop, and they offered $100 off the MSRP (out of seven shops I
called, they were only one of two that had even heard of this model!). Haven't decided yet though.

Every time I've bought a non-sale bike, the shop has offered some sort of freebie, i.e. free pump,
cages, etc., but these are on much less expensive bikes than what you're buying.

The one time I asked a shop in Palo Alto for the same price as another shop, the owner launched into
a tirade about how the other shop uses inexperienced assemblers etc., which was amusing since two
minutes earlier he was complaining that one of his mechanics hadn't assembled the bike I wanted to
test ride correctly. I left and bought the bike elsewhere. Thing is, I would have bought the bike
from him if he had simply said, 'sorry, I won't cut the price.' 18 years later I did buy a kid's
bike from his shop--no hard feelings.

The mark-up on bikes are not great, 35-40%, while the margins on parts and accessories are much
higher. So a shop isn't happy about giving discounts on the bike, but is less reluctant to throw in
accessories.

"Robert Chambers" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't know if I buy that they can't come up with a 2003 in your size. They have little incentive
to if they can get you to pay a few hundred bucks more for a 2004. I was ordering a new Trek 5500
towards the end of last year and got caught in this little game for a while, too. I made it clear
I was also looking at other bikes at other dealers and that it made little difference to me if I
had to take a walk to the other store and get the other bike. And the bike I wanted magically
materialized from somewhere.

When I was buying a Trek Tandem, my LBS (Mike J's shop) didn't have my size. Their price was
actually $100 less than the shop I bought it from, and I had to drive 70 miles each way to a shop
that had it. This LBS is pretty good, and I believed them when they said that they couldn't get
any more of this model from Trek (it was an end of the year closeout). I guess bike dealers don't
trade bikes like car dealers trade cars. I would have gladly paid extra to not have to drive 140
miles (twice).

"CL" <chetliew(-at_)comcast.net> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

exactly,

so if the customer is willing to pay cash, why not kick it back to him/her? In the end the bike
shop is out the same 2% if the customer decides to use his/her credit card for points or miles. If
I were a shop owner I'd rather give that money to the customer than Visa or Matercard...especially
if s/he is going to turnaround and spend that money on add ons.

Perhaps a fair compromise would be to kick back 1% to the customer and retain the 1%.

It isn't a car lot...but it is a buyer's market. People have to realize that you can haggle on
nearly all high ticket items. If I am going to spend thousands of dollars, whether on a car, a
mattress set, big screen TV or a bike, you better believe there is some room to bargain or wait
for a sale price. Anyone who pays retail is an idiot.

Come now, not everyone is that price sensitive. Personally, I will usually wait for a sale on high
ticket items, especially bicycles since there is generally an advantage to getting last years model
anyway (Trek used to decontent slightly each year rather than raise prices on a model, don't know if
they still do this).

The credit card fee is less than 2% now anyway, about 1.6% for
MC/Visa. Are you going to begrudge the LBS $16 on a $1000 bike?! OTOH, if I owned a bike shop, I'd
probably offer the hesitant buyer of a non-sale bike something to not lose a sale,
i.e. $25 worth of accessories that cost me less than half that.

Haggling on a product with a 35-40% mark-up is different than haggling on a mattress which typically
will have a 200% mark-up. Give the shop a little break.

"Jim Edgar" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ok, how about haggling at Macy's or Nordstrom or Home Depot or WalMart or any major retailer? I've
never seen it.

At department stores, haggling is common on major appliances and furniture. Often it is initiated by
the store, when you seem as if you are about to leave. On several occasions I've had the salesperson
offer a lower price to keep the business, or offer a higher end model at the same price as a sale
model that they've run out of.

"basjan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Spider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

LOL. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Best to just shut up now, before you
make yourself look even more silly.

The logical fallacy exposed here is the "strawman."

Spider

I think you're the one wide in the open for target practice... here's looking at you kid...

What you think is irrelevant. You think I come into a bike shop with attitude, and you also think I
don't know anything about the bike biz.

Maybe if you "thought" about it more, instead of inventing attitudes, you'd "get it."

Spider

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am a doctor and I want to tell you that a lot of people do haggle down

the

Quoted message said:

price. Even more have a third party payer that does the same, or simply just pays a specific
amount regardless of the asked price. And a substantial number of patients don't pay at all.

I think you can probably add two more to that list now! :>😉

(No, not me... don't think it would go over too well with Kaiser Permanente. I'll let JR and
Spider try first, and see what happens)

Haggling with Kaiser is almost a requirement, not an option. Not on price, but on actually obtaining
the services that your insurance covers. You are dealing with a front line staff that is trained to
make it as difficult as possible to see a doctor, and who routinely try to minimize the services
provided. And who try to get you out of the hospital following an operation, while you're still
puking from the anesthesia.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't accept that. It's my belief that if we make it more convenient and fun to ride a bicycle,
more people will do so. That's why we're members of Bikes Belong, and work very hard to maintain
federal funding under ISTEA21 to keep bicycles in the transportation guidelines.

That's great news, but you should inform your staff about this. When I called to inquire about
buying a Trek T300, first they asked if it was a tandem, then when I explained what it was, they
said that they wouldn't be carrying this part of the 2004 Trek line.

You can find out about them at trekbikes.comcitybikeOpen ↗

BTW, one of your local competitors is carrying them (well one model in the line anyway).

Seems like the best way to promote bicycling is to sell not only road and mountain bikes, but bikes
that can be used for transportation.

"basjan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Spider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yeah? Just wait to hear me talk about top-posting over 350+ lines of conversation!

As if I give a hoot whether or not I am treading on your delicate sense of etiquette - the idea
here is to inform you that there are more to the bike shop business than meets the eye (from
experience)

Again, what gives you the idea that I don't know? The same idea that invents attitudes I never
display? We'll get to netiquette later on...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In any profit situation, there is room to move on price, by definition.

The

Quoted message said:

only exception: where the profit on the item is $0.01. I'm talking about PROFIT, not markup from
wholesale price.

Now this is truly amazing - does this go for your line of work as well? Can't be doing that good.

So, you can't address the issue, but move to the next logical fallacy
- ad hominem commentary. Nice.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, for some bicycle enthusiasts, on-line purchasing might be the better way to go?

Again you missed the point - buy where you want, but don't think shop mark-ups are ripping
you off.

Where do you get this [censored]? I never said, nor do I believe, that bike shop prices are a rip-off.
Only a complete [censored] would put words in my mouth that way.

Quoted message said:

There is a lot that comes into play when you are an online retailer vs. a LBS (already discussed)

Of course there is. Which is why I never bring that aspect up in conversations with a bike shop.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or asking for a discount at an LBS on a full bike, one that does not require fitting and
adjusting as "part of the price?" (Since I can do that myself.)

That well-known shop sign comes to mind: Cost of service - $20; if you watch $50; if you help
$100. I think it implies that some customers are just plain scary...

Again, you avoid the issue. I don't watch them do it, and I don't help them do it. I do it myself. I
can and do most all my own work, and don't need their folks to take up their time on it. But the
veiled ad hominem comment is noted.

Do you have substance, or are you just arguing to argue?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

LOL. You don't know what the hell you are talking about. Best to just shut up now, before you
make yourself look even more silly.

Nice going Spider - I'll say goodbye with that, many more interesting and logical posts and
DISCUSSION on this newsgroup.

See, that's a funny thing. If you wanted discussion, then you'd not be a top poster (lazy and
arrogant by definition) such that you could have a logical conversation. If you wanted a discussion,
you'd talk about the issues, instead of attacking the person. I would suggest that unless you are a
habitual liar, just stick with the facts, and try not to impart to others some feelings or attitudes
that they don't have.

I did notice that you trimmed some comments of substance. Discussion, indeed. Look up the definition
of irony some time.

Spider

"Spider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

See, that's a funny thing. If you wanted discussion, then you'd not be a top poster (lazy and
arrogant by definition) such that you could have a logical conversation. If you wanted a
discussion, you'd talk about the issues, instead of attacking the person. I would suggest that
unless you are a habitual liar, just stick with the facts, and try not to impart to others some
feelings or attitudes that they don't have.

I did notice that you trimmed some comments of substance. Discussion, indeed. Look up the
definition of irony some time.

Spider

I think the thread reads more like you are the argumentative one here, and hey knock yourself out.
You're transparency is irratating.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't accept that. It's my belief that if we make it more convenient

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fun to ride a bicycle, more people will do so. That's why we're members

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bikes Belong, and work very hard to maintain federal funding under

ISTEA21

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to keep bicycles in the transportation guidelines.

That's great news, but you should inform your staff about this. When I called to inquire about
buying a Trek T300, first they asked if it was a tandem, then when I explained what it was, they
said that they wouldn't be carrying this part of the 2004 Trek line.

Steven: We *will* be carrying some of the commute (T-series) bikes, as well as the new folding
models. I just checked TREKs on-line dealer website, and it shows zero in stock... all across the
board. Sometimes it's just dumb luck that something's available when you place an order this early
in the season. Whoever got the bikes before us had better timing somehow. I'll talk with my rep and
see when they'll be available. Was there a particular model you were interested in?

As for confusion about what it was, the staff member was actually pretty sharp at believing it to be
a tandem, since it has a "T" designator, which was never used for any other type of road bike
previously. Since models that haven't yet come in don't appear in our bike list, it would get rather
confusing.

Keep in mind that, aside from myself and my brother, nobody else on our staff has seen the full line
of product, and won't until the Interbike trade show in a few weeks. But rest assured that you know
what I'm going to talk to them about tomorrow!

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"Steven Scharf" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't accept that. It's my belief that if we make it more convenient

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fun to ride a bicycle, more people will do so. That's why we're members

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bikes Belong, and work very hard to maintain federal funding under

ISTEA21

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to keep bicycles in the transportation guidelines.

That's great news, but you should inform your staff about this. When I called to inquire about
buying a Trek T300, first they asked if it was a tandem, then when I explained what it was, they
said that they wouldn't be carrying this part of the 2004 Trek line.

You can find out about them at

trekbikes.comcitybikeOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

BTW, one of your local competitors is carrying them (well one model in the line anyway).

Seems like the best way to promote bicycling is to sell not only road and mountain bikes, but
bikes that can be used for transportation.

"Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't accept that. It's my belief that if we make it more

convenient

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

fun to ride a bicycle, more people will do so. That's why we're

members

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bikes Belong, and work very hard to maintain federal funding under

ISTEA21

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to keep bicycles in the transportation guidelines.

That's great news, but you should inform your staff about this. When I called to inquire about
buying a Trek T300, first they asked if it was a tandem, then when I explained what it was, they
said that they

wouldn't

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be carrying this part of the 2004 Trek line.

Steven: We *will* be carrying some of the commute (T-series) bikes, as

well

Quoted message said:

as the new folding models. I just checked TREKs on-line dealer website,

and

Quoted message said:

it shows zero in stock... all across the board.

Hmm, are they out of stock because they didn't build/import many, or out of stock because they are
wildly popular? I suspect the former, at the prices they're asking. Bike Gallery in Oregon somehow
got them prior to the general U.S. release. A shop in Sunnyvale had one, but it was already sold
when I called.

I'm going to check out what's available at Interbike. Some other manufacturers are thinking of
following Trek's lead.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Steven: We *will* be carrying some of the commute (T-series) bikes, as

well

Quoted message said:

as the new folding models. I just checked TREKs on-line dealer website,

and

Quoted message said:

it shows zero in stock... all across the board.

Hmm, are they out of stock because they didn't build/import many, or out of stock because they are
wildly popular? I suspect the former, at the prices they're asking. Bike Gallery in Oregon somehow
got them prior to the general U.S. release. A shop in Sunnyvale had one, but it was already sold
when I called.

Steve: There's nothing new about the "T" series of bikes; TREK has been selling them in Europe
(particularly in Germany) for some time. You are correct that Bike Gallery has had them for a while;
they participated in a test program to see how they'd do here in the US. Jay Graves, their owner, is
very much on top of the bicycle-as-commuter-vehicle idea, and has had great success in promoting a
more bike-friendly transportation grid. He's one of the heroes, in my book. Nice guy too.

I am somewhat cynical by nature though, and question whether the SF Bay Area needs a bike with full
fenders, lights and more, in order to make commuting a practical thing to do. Realistically, we
don't have that much rain, and, when we do, I doubt that full fenders are going to make the
difference between whether somebody rides or not. We already sell a great number of "FX" series TREK
bikes (7500FX and 7700FX) to people who commute, and the *substantially* lighter weight of such
bikes makes them a lot easier to take on a CalTrain or Bart.

But what you bring up more than anything is a need for our website to directly address the
commuting issue, by providing informational resources (maps, info on what transit systems allow
bikes, what sort of equipment makes commuting more practical etc). One more thing for me to get
around to, Real Soon Now.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗

"basjan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Spider" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

See, that's a funny thing. If you wanted discussion, then you'd not be a top poster (lazy and
arrogant by definition) such that you could have a logical conversation. If you wanted a
discussion, you'd talk about the issues, instead of attacking the person. I would suggest that
unless you are a habitual liar, just stick with the facts, and try not to impart to others some
feelings or attitudes that they don't have.

I did notice that you trimmed some comments of substance. Discussion, indeed. Look up the
definition of irony some time.

Spider

I think the thread reads more like you are the argumentative one here, and hey knock yourself out.
You're transparency is irratating.

This is hilarious. After trying to re-image my comments and put words in my mouth, attitudes into
my head, and all sorts of other stuff that just doesn't exist, you attempt to imply moral
superiority. Precious.

You proved my point very nicely with your post. Thank you.

Spider

Quoted message said:

Hmm, are they out of stock because they didn't build/import many, or out of stock because they are
wildly popular? I suspect the former, at the prices they're asking. Bike Gallery in Oregon somehow
got them prior to the general U.S. release. A shop in Sunnyvale had one, but it was already sold
when I called.

I'm going to check out what's available at Interbike. Some other manufacturers are thinking of
following Trek's lead.

Steve: I just checked with my inside rep at TREK- he says that *zero* of those bikes have been
shipped so far (with the exception of the pilot program with Bike Gallery). So it's possible even
the shop in Sunnyvale was confused! My rep didn't have an estimated delivery date yet, but we'll
keep on top of it.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

""Mike Jacoubowsky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Steve: There's nothing new about the "T" series of bikes; TREK has been selling them in Europe
(particularly in Germany) for some time. You are correct that Bike Gallery has had them for a
while; they participated in a test program to see how they'd do here in the US. Jay Graves,
their owner, is very much on top of the bicycle-as-commuter-vehicle idea, and has had great
success in promoting a more bike-friendly transportation grid. He's one of the heroes, in my
book. Nice guy too.

I like how he promotes the use of bike trailers by selling the Burley line at very low prices. I go
over to one of his shops whenver I find myself in Portland. I wasn't surprised that his shop was the
test case for the T series.

I think I'm going to see what other trekking bikes make it over to the U.S. this year before I buy
anything. The head of Fuji U.S. told me (via e-mail) that they're thinking of selling some of their
trekking bikes over here (no doubt in response to Trek). How did Trek come to decide to sell these
bikes in the U.S.? Were they looking at what Breezer is doing?

Mike Jacoubowsky/Chain Reaction Bicycles said:

Steve: I just checked with my inside rep at TREK- he says that *zero* of those bikes have been
shipped so far (with the exception of the pilot program with Bike Gallery). So it's possible even
the shop in Sunnyvale was confused! My rep didn't have an estimated delivery date yet, but we'll
keep on top of it.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

Does your Trek rep know if the 2004 5200's are shipping? :-)

J. Spaceman

Quoted message said:

Does your Trek rep know if the 2004 5200's are shipping? :-)

There will be a small number of 5200s shipping in various sizes over the next few weeks. We just got
an emailed letter from TREK stating that Shimano wasn't delivering many long-cage Ultegra rear
derailleurs, causing deliveries of several bikes to be held up. Fortunately, we ordered a great many
5200s a while ago (availability issues have been common with 5200s, and it's too-important a model
for us to risk running out of them), so we have every size in stock.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles chainreactionbicycles.comchainreactionbicycles.comOpen ↗