Physiology behind high HR when cycling AFTER weight training?



Trainingwheelz

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I think Morbius is missing the point. What's more, he keeps shooting down suggestions which leads me to believe that he doesn't seek a 'solution'. The truth is there could be any number of reasons why his heart rate was higher than you would have like to have been. The principle of specificity reigns in this scenerio and improvements in certain areas will be best made by isolating variables and targeting areas during training sessions.
 

SolarEnergy

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biker-linz said:
Unfortunately this *theory* doesn't have much support from a genuine physiological perspective. The forces involved in cycling are generally well below the threshold where strength plays any part at all; muscular adaptation for cycling is mostly a biochemical process.

L.
Sorry!! I don't want people to think that my boss is a dum, so I should have mention that he is a swimming coach, level 4, that had athletes in every summer edition of Olympics Game since 1988. I no longer work there but I learned that one of his swimmers has won the silver in mens 4X100 free style relay in World Championship held in Montreal this summer. They even defeted South African swimmers.

Now, if I speak for myself, I don't prescribe weight lifting for road cyclists during the specific preparation phase, unless I have a darn good reason to do so.

In swimming, could be a completely different story.

biker-linz said:
One of my favourite off-season sessions involves running with our dogs in the forest. I do a loop with a 'station' every 5 minutes of so (a tree branch for pull-ups or a patch of leaves for abdominal work etc.). I know it won't help my cycling one iota, but I enjoy it and it's *really* good for me; it also helps keep the weight off when I just don't have time to ride my bike.
L.
I really like that one:D
 

Felt_Rider

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Dr. Morbius traded a few PM's with me yesterday as he asked for my opinion since my background is exclusive to strength training and nutrition as it applies to strength training.

I believe the Dr. was asking purely on the recreational side not as a competitor in cycling. I believe the Dr. understands about sports specific training as it applies to cycling events.
 

Carrera

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The reason I tend to be personally in favour of squatting relates a lot to hip and lower back strength. And when I say strength I refer to the bone loading as well. Moreover, if, God forbid, I ever take a tumble on my bike I'm hoping my bones won't be so easily broken e.t.c.
Plus, I don't consider myself a pure distance cyclist and am very into explosive, hard bursts. So, I concede the squats I do may damage my long term endurance and make me more susceptible to fatigue over longer distances.
However, when I weight train I no longer train with muscle heads as I did in the past. Sometimes I train with middle distance runners. In fact, yesterday I was training with one guy who has a 30 resting pulse but he's a runner not a cyclist.
Maybe he would find Dr Morbius's thread interesting as he tends to hit the weights straight off the track.
Folks, I confess I don't know why weights are used so much by runners. I don't know what the differences are between cycling and running but I believe runners use their upper body more, correct? Also Seb Coe and Paula Radcliffe are examples of 2 runners who weight trained a lot but Steve Ovett hardly did any weights. But again, Seb was a middle distance runner not a marathon runner so he was more similar to a sprinter cyclist.



biker-linz said:
Well said! I do think that it's worth trying to keep pointing out to people that weight training will probably not improve endurance cycling performance (or at least the data suggest not). I get accused of being anti-weight training, and yet I'm qualified as a 'strength coach' at the same level as I am a cycling coach, and wouldn't hesitate to prescibe weights for any number of reasons. One of my favourite off-season sessions involves running with our dogs in the forest. I do a loop with a 'station' every 5 minutes of so (a tree branch for pull-ups or a patch of leaves for abdominal work etc.). I know it won't help my cycling one iota, but I enjoy it and it's *really* good for me; it also helps keep the weight off when I just don't have time to ride my bike.

L.
 

Carrera

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Careful. Dr Morbius already informed us he isn't a real Doctor. He's probably very well read in sports physiology but I don't think he walks around a hospital in a white coat. ;)


Felt_Rider said:
Dr. Morbius traded a few PM's with me yesterday as he asked for my opinion since my background is exclusive to strength training and nutrition as it applies to strength training.

I believe the Dr. was asking purely on the recreational side not as a competitor in cycling. I believe the Dr. understands about sports specific training as it applies to cycling events.
 

Felt_Rider

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Carrera said:
Careful. Dr Morbius already informed us he isn't a real Doctor. He's probably very well read in sports physiology but I don't think he walks around a hospital in a white coat. ;)
I know that. I am just too lazy to spell out his entire name. :)
 

rippitupp

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i think this is the best point so far Solar Energy. i am new to cycling but have have weight trained for years, and i have an extensive background in physiology, general not applied however.
Everyone is unique in how they respond to training and physical stress.
As far as lifting is concerned, the increase in metabolic rate, especially BMR can last for hours to days and while recovery from oxygen debt/lactate is the initial cause of the HR increase, the growth and repair that happens after can last for a while (increased BMR) which inturn can cause a marked increase in ones HR when doing Cardio immediately after weights with little or no effort (work or wattage). Lifting tears and damages the muscles extensively, where cycling causes minimal damage. Looking a a single variable like HR to determine fitness level is very missleading. the bodies physiological responses are extremely complex.
As a question, i had thought that working in the 75-85% range was still AEROBIC, and therefore lactate production should be kept to a minimum.... and would explain why recovery from a ride is much quicker than lifting? Also when starting Aerobic activity with a pre existing oxygen debt, is extremely taking on the Cardiovascular system as your VO2 is already significantly lowered....remember all the muscles in the body have a finite amount of oxygen to share...

hope this helps a bit...


SolarEnergy said:
Thanks Carrera, it's a passion for me. But I did study it by my own.

I use to coach in a University, most of my athletes where students registered in Phys Ed related programs.

After eight years in studying, and applying these concepts on a daily basis, I still find that it's difficult to evaluate the real benefit of weight lifting programs amoung endurance athletes. One thing is sure, you won't ear me yealing that weight lifting is bad, or is good. It's complex enough to be evaluated on a case per case basis, each individual being very different from the other. On top of that, I find that senior athletes are intelligent enough to make their own opinion on the matter.

Cheers:)
 

biker-linz

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rippitupp said:
As a question, i had thought that working in the 75-85% range was still AEROBIC, and therefore lactate production should be kept to a minimum.... and would explain why recovery from a ride is much quicker than lifting? Also when starting Aerobic activity with a pre existing oxygen debt, is extremely taking on the Cardiovascular system as your VO2 is already significantly lowered....remember all the muscles in the body have a finite amount of oxygen to share...

hope this helps a bit...
The concept of oxygen debt has passed by a little, we now talk about excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC). The resynthesis of intramuscular high-energy phosphates (such as those used in lifting) will be completed fairly quickly. Elevated O2 consumption beyond that point is a result of the body restoring homeostasis in a number of systems (hormonal, thermal, ionic, circulatory, respiratory). Remember that we now know that lactate plays no part in fatigue.
For what's it's worth DM I think that your HR is probably elevated due to a change in the balance of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, residual to the stress of weight training. Increased levels of circulating adrenaline (that's epinephrine for our US readers!;)) would cause the symptoms you describe.

L.
 

biker-linz

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SolarEnergy said:
What do you mean?
Exactly what I say. While lactate is certainly an important metabolic intermediary (particularly as it both delays the onset of acidosis and also acts as a fuel 'shuttle' both between cells and possibly within the cell itself) it has no role in the fatigue process. See:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=PubMed&dopt=Citation&list_uids=15308499

and Brooks, Fahey and Baldwin- "Exercise Physiology" for greater detail on the inter- and intra-cellular lactate shuttles.

However lactate's importance as a buffer may itself be unimportant as it's possible that acidosis is not a fatigue mechanism either, see:

Pedersen, T. H., O. B. Nielsen, G. D. Lamb, and D. G. Stephenson. Intracellular acidosis enhances the excitability of working muscle. Science. 305:1144-1147., 2004.

As to what *really* causes metabolic fatigue (beyond substrate depletion), how does orthophosphate grab you? See:

Dutka, T. L., L. Cole, and G. D. Lamb. Calcium-phosphate precipitation in the sarcoplasmic reticulum reduces action potential-mediated Ca2+ release in mammalian skeletal muscle. Am J Physiol Cell Physiol:00273.02005, 2005.

Hope this helps,

L. :)
 

SolarEnergy

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biker-linz said:
....However lactate's importance as a buffer may itself be unimportant as it's possible that acidosis is not a fatigue mechanism either....
biker-linz said:
....As to what *really* causes metabolic fatigue (beyond substrate depletion), how does orthophosphate grab you?.....
So your understanding of that litterature is that acidosis, which was beleived to lower the PH of the blood, thus slowing down the muscular contractions, would in fact not be the cause of that muscular contraction slow down?
 

biker-linz

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SolarEnergy said:
So your understanding of that litterature is that acidosis, which was beleived to lower the PH of the blood, thus slowing down the muscular contractions, would in fact not be the cause of that muscular contraction slow down?
Acidosis and reduction of pH are one and the same thing (pH is the negative logarithm of proton concentration). My understanding of the literature is:

a. that metabolic acidosis is not the result of protons dissociating from so-called 'lactic acid',
b. the lactate dehydrogenase reaction consumes a proton thus retarding acidosis,
c. that acidosis may not actually be responsible for 'muscular contraction slow down' as you call it (i would call it fatigue :)) and
d. that the exact mechanisms of fatigue are still unclear, although phosphate ion accumulation is one of the candidates.

L.
 

SolarEnergy

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biker-linz said:
........
a. that metabolic acidosis is not the result of protons dissociating from so-called 'lactic acid',
...........
In fact, I thought that when the rate of anaerobic metabolism is high, protons combine with pyruvic acid to form lactic acid, thus causing the muscle pH to drop from its neutral state. I must be confused?
 

Doctor Morbius

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biker-linz said:
The concept of oxygen debt has passed by a little, we now talk about excess post-exercise oxygen consumption (EPOC). The resynthesis of intramuscular high-energy phosphates (such as those used in lifting) will be completed fairly quickly. Elevated O2 consumption beyond that point is a result of the body restoring homeostasis in a number of systems (hormonal, thermal, ionic, circulatory, respiratory). Remember that we now know that lactate plays no part in fatigue.
For what's it's worth DM I think that your HR is probably elevated due to a change in the balance of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems, residual to the stress of weight training. Increased levels of circulating adrenaline (that's epinephrine for our US readers!;)) would cause the symptoms you describe.

L.
Thanks for your input. I certainly wouldn't have thought that was a concern much less the root of the problem. With your background though I have no reason to doubt what you've stated.

Just goes to show that what we may "feel" to be true doesn't always hold up in the presence of science. And I'll take the scientific viewpoint over conjecture any day. There's still plenty of mythos hanging on in the exercise science field, unfortunately.
 

biker-linz

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SolarEnergy said:
In fact, I thought that when the rate of anaerobic metabolism is high, protons combine with pyruvic acid to form lactic acid, thus causing the muscle pH to drop from its neutral state. I must be confused?
Yup. The lactate dehydrogenase reaction is as follows:
Pyruvate + NADH + H+ = Lactate + NAD+, thus consuming a proton. This is therefore an alkalising reaction (less protons = higher pH). The proton which was *supposed* to dissociate from 'lactic acid' comes from the carboxylic acid group which is formed by the removal of a phosphate group from 1,3-DPG. However as Robergs points out, the proton is never there in the first place. I can heartily recommend reading the Robergs paper I cited, it's fantastic.

L.

PS I should have mentioned Solar, these are fairly recent developments so I wouldn't feel too bad if you haven't come across them yet.
 

biker-linz

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Doctor Morbius said:
Thanks for your input. I certainly wouldn't have thought that was a concern much less the root of the problem. With your background though I have no reason to doubt what you've stated.

Just goes to show that what we may "feel" to be true doesn't always hold up in the presence of science. And I'll take the scientific viewpoint over conjecture any day. There's still plenty of mythos hanging on in the exercise science field, unfortunately.
Hey DM, I'm only speculatin'!! TBH I hadn't read all the preceding posts terribly carefully. All the same, I think it's a fair guess.:)

L.
 

acoggan

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Fifty-five posts (this is #56), and I'm wondering: has anybody mentioned the possiblity that weight training leads to an elevated heart rate during subsequent endurance exercise due to an acute reduction in plasma volume?
 

SolarEnergy

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acoggan said:
Fifty-five posts (this is #56), and I'm wondering: has anybody mentioned the possiblity that weight training leads to an elevated heart rate during subsequent endurance exercise due to an acute reduction in plasma volume?
Interesting.. You mean reduction in plasma availability or in plasma absolute volume?


biker-linz said:
....PS I should have mentioned Solar, these are fairly recent developments so I wouldn't feel too bad if you haven't come across them yet.
You know what. I haven't been in the business for a while now. These good old theories about causes of fatigue and ways to delay them, I kinda got them for granted over the time.

But I always knew that lactate was in fact producing energy, and that training in the presence of lactate was a good thing. I think that given these new theories represent a step toward the truth (probably just an other step:) ), the reason why this dramatic change of direction does not impact on the way we must train, is that our goal was, and still is, to get rid of the greatest quantity of lactate per minute, during the greatest possible number of minutes. In the good old days, we thought that we had to get rid of it, now they say that we need to use it to regenerate more ATP. Sounds like they now see the glass of water half full instead of half empty:)

I'm really gratefull that you took that new perspective to our attention.

But I still find that something does not add up :D

If you don't mind, I may have more of extra-questions:D

And BTW here are a couple of them:)
1) You said in an earlier post that adrenalin, among other factors, may be responsable for that mysterious heart rate increase when cycling after weight lifting. Can the same enzyme be held accountable for an heart rate increase when cycling outside on a road bike, 25 miles per hour with a group, as opposed to cycling on a stationary bike?

2) That extra workload placed on the heart, is it a good thing? What I have in mind is this : if I train 500 hours on a road bike, with a heart rate at let say,,, 5 extra bpm, can it have a positive impact on let say O2 economy?
 

biker-linz

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acoggan said:
Fifty-five posts (this is #56), and I'm wondering: has anybody mentioned the possiblity that weight training leads to an elevated heart rate during subsequent endurance exercise due to an acute reduction in plasma volume?
LOL. Oh yeah, I suppose it *could* be that!;) Trust me to miss the bleedin' obvious. Although.....can I still get a point for increased SNS stimulation: wouldn't that be how HR would be pushed up to maintain cardiac output in response to the drop in pre-load?

L.
 

biker-linz

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SolarEnergy said:
Interesting.. You mean reduction in plasma availability or in plasma absolute volume?
I think he means plasma volume. Reduced plasma volume (sweating etc.) = reduced pre-load = reduced stroke volume = increased HR.
SolarEnergy said:
If you don't mind, I may have more of extra-questions:D?
I'll do my best, but Andy's lurking now so I'd better be careful.;)
SolarEnergy said:
1) You said in an earlier post that adrenalin, among other factors, may be responsable for that mysterious heart rate increase when cycling after weight lifting. Can the same enzyme be held accountable for an heart rate increase when cycling outside on a road bike, 25 miles per hour with a group, as opposed to cycling on a stationary bike??
Andrenaline is a hormone rather than an enzyme and I think Andy's probably knocked my theory into touch. TBH I was cheating a little bit too: adrenaline (and noradrenalin) control HR (among other things) but that doesn't necessarily mean that they're the root cause of the rise itself if you get my drift (no pun intended). *Although*...an imbalance between the para-sympathetic and sympathetic nervous systems has been blamed for things like chronic changes in HR (suppressed morning / resting HR etc.). This was kind of where I was coming from initially: I hadn't really read previous posts very carefully and I didn't realise he was jumping straight from the weights onto the bike. I thought they were two different sessions.
SolarEnergy said:
2) That extra workload placed on the heart, is it a good thing? What I have in mind is this : if I train 500 hours on a road bike, with a heart rate at let say,,, 5 extra bpm, can it have a positive impact on let say O2 economy?
If what you mean is that the extra work the heart is doing will make it more econmical then I doubt it.

L.:)