Power difference - indoor Vs outdoor

[doctorSpoc]

ha... couldn't wait to test my hypothesis... proof that inside, torque is directly proportional to angular velocity/cadence which is proportional to power.. i.e. the only way to produce more power inside is to spin faster and that outside you can increase your power simply by pressing harder on the pedals (i.e. torque is not necessarily proportional to angular velocity/cadence and power)...

look at your graphs...

an inside sprint graph... power, cadence and torque will all sit right on top of one another and will all vary pretty much the same.

then look at a graph for an outside sprint... you'll see torque rises first as you overcome the inertia of you and your bike... then torque will start to drop off power will rise and cadence will rise but not as fast as power... power will flatten out or start to drop and cadence will continue to increase 'til the end of the sprint...

proof positive that the dynamics of pedalling indoors and outdoors are different.. you can actually just look at the graph and know right away if it was done inside or out at a glance...

[Edit] if you stomp the pedals at 1-2 o'clock and don't pull/push through increasing your integral power substantially from the two big blips in torque and power as frenchyge stated you will have a really hard time making the same numbers inside..
sprints from a standing start are more obvious but the difference in profiles is still quite distinctive

 

[acoggan]

yep.. i can see that... i knew there must be some REAL physiological reasons that you REALLY cannot ride the same watts inside as out... as you say... because you haven't developed the specific muscles... your muscles aren't coordinated to do so etc... makes sense... bascially the same reasons why you couldn't produce as much power before you started specifically training for cycling... just one level more of specificity.

But again, not everyone is unable to match their outdoor performance indoors - in fact, some of us do better indoors - and studies that have explicitly examined the effect of inertial load on various physiological responses have routinely failed to show a significant difference.

 

[doctorSpoc]

But again, not everyone is unable to match their outdoor performance indoors - in fact, some of us do better indoors - and studies that have explicitly examined the effect of inertial load on various physiological responses have routinely failed to show a significant difference.

exactly... if you happen to ride outside in a way that is optimal for riding indoor (spinning in circles, pulling and pushing though) then yes, of course your numbers will be just as good to even better than outside... inertial loading might actually get in your way outside... the correct muscle will be developed and their coordination to work efficiently together to produce lots of power will be developed..

you'd know better than me but do we develop ganglion that control the coordination of muscles? if so this coordination would be hard coded and it would take time to change this.

but if you don't in general ride in an optimal way to produce good power inside (you tend to stomp and use high impulse to turn those pedals over rather than spinning smoothly)... then just like when you start any sport (specificity of exercise) you will not fair well inside(without inertial loading) and not just for mental or concentration reasons you physically are not able to do it.. if you practiced all year and developed the muscle and muscle coordination then eventually you would, as i said just like when you train specifically for any exersise... and this is pretty much what the people who can't produce the same number inside observe... after a few months they start to be able to get there numbers up... that's what i observe... all other thing being equal.. cooling etc.

do you have links to some of these studies.. do they actually check O2 consumption so see that all riders.. but stompers in particular are actually using the same amount of O2 at a given power, with and without inertial loading? i'd be very, very suprised if they were, specifically if they hadn't done much riding without inertial loading in the months (and year) prior to the test... and absolutely none in the weeks prior to the test.

 

[RapDaddyo]

exactly... if you happen to ride outside in a way that is optimal for riding indoor (spinning in circles, pulling and pushing though) then yes, of course your numbers will be just as good to even better than outside

But, I don't ride that way at all. I don't consciously apply any force to the pedals except from ~1-5 o'clock. In fact, I tend to snap the pedal through the 3 o'clock position rather than a gradual push. So, I don't even consider myself a "masher." And, I make the same power outside and inside. How does your theory hold up now?

 

[doctorSpoc]

But, I don't ride that way at all. I don't consciously apply any force to the pedals except from ~1-5 o'clock. In fact, I tend to snap the pedal through the 3 o'clock position rather than a gradual push. So, I don't even consider myself a "masher." And, I make the same power outside and inside. How does your theory hold up now?

even if you ride like that it doesn't mean you are applying a large amount of impulse to the pedals at points during your ~1-5 o'clock effort per leg. people that would have a hard time without inertial loading are those that would have large amounts of torque at say at 1-3 o'clock and probably reduce up until ~5 o'clock (to do this requires something to push against like the rider and bikes inertia)... but someone could ride just as you describe and apply constant torque all the way from 1-5 o'clock... these people would have no problem inside without inertial loading... as well the coordination between your legs might be very good, keeping cadence very constant over the course of your spin for long periods of time...

[edit] the fact that you say you snap your leg at 3 o'clock would lead me to believe that this probably allows you to maintain your cadence/torque just like the second type of rider i describe above would likely have to do.

 

[RapDaddyo]

even if you ride like that it doesn't mean you are applying a large amount of impulse to the pedals at points during your ~1-5 o'clock effort per leg. people that would have a hard time without inertial loading are those that would have large amounts of torque at say at 1-3 o'clock and probably reduce up until ~5 o'clock (to do this requires something to push against like the rider and bikes inertia)... but someone could ride just as you describe and apply constant torque all the way from 1-5 o'clock... these people would have no problem inside without inertial loading... as well the coordination between your legs might be very good, keeping cadence very constant over the course of your spin for long periods of time...

[edit] the fact that you say you snap your leg at 3 o'clock would lead me to believe that this probably allows you to maintain your cadence/torque just like the second type of rider i describe above would likely have to do.

Well, my cadence is very constant and I'd love to see full 360 degree torque data. I've always thought it was sort of "peaky" at 3 o'clock. And, of course, feel and real are often different. Even though I don't consciously pull through the bottom of the stroke or pull up on the upstroke, maybe a full circle torque curve would reveal otherwise.

 

[acoggan]

do you have links to some of these studies

Knock yourself out:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=11784546&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=15045501&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/..._uids=16032416&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

(There are others as well, including a study by biker-linz that has yet to be published.)

Note that my primary purpose in pointing out studies such as these is not to really dispute your conclusions, but just to prevent anyone from concluding that all the answers are in already. IOW, what you've been arguing makes sense to me - and in fact has been the explanation that Jim Martin and I have tossed back and forth to one another for years - but unfortunately, it doesn't really fit with the available experimental data.

 

[peterwright]

Think about it this way: if you are not used to pushing/pulling through the dead spot, the wheel slows down immediately on a trainer, and has to be accelerated again early in the power stroke (ie, ~1 to 2 o'clock position). The physiological effect is that muscles are being loaded differently and at different joint angles when indoors, and muscles are being called on that don't have to do much when riding outside. As someone gets acclimated to riding indoors, those muscles get used to the additional demands, and the difference in performance narrows.

That's the difference in inertial effect that's been mentioned before in this thread and previous ones.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[doctorSpoc]

Think about it this way: if you are not used to pushing/pulling through the dead spot, the wheel slows down immediately on a trainer, and has to be accelerated again early in the power stroke (ie, ~1 to 2 o'clock position). The physiological effect is that muscles are being loaded differently and at different joint angles when indoors, and muscles are being called on that don't have to do much when riding outside. As someone gets acclimated to riding indoors, those muscles get used to the additional demands, and the difference in performance narrows.

That's the difference in inertial effect that's been mentioned before in this thread and previous ones.

Makes a lot of sense to me.

this is mostly right (specificity of muscle stuff)...but the is one thing wrong with it... and RapDaddyo forced the narrowing and tightening up of why this phenomina is happening... pushing through and pulling isn't what this is about... what it is about is if a rider at some time in his/her pedal rev uses the inertia of him and his bike to push against, as CycleFast put it... or in other words torques the pedal hard/harder at a point or points during the pedal rev... because inside the interia is very small meaning it's actually phyically impossible for him to pedal this way inside (with no inertial loading). for example, a rider could pull and push through but still load up the pedal at 2 o'clock and this rider would likely still have problems inside... because without inertial loading this loading up would be impossible

no inertial load (inside) - power varies with angular velocity varies with torque.. they all vary directly with each other (power curves of inside and out demonstrate this) [edit] vary "proportionately" is the word i was looking for

with inertial load (outside) - power varies with angular velocity and torque but torque and anguar velocity do not necessarily vary at the same rate.. i.e. i can increase torque and angular velocity at different rate... percisely because of the intertial loading... without it, it is physically impossible for me to do this... again the power curve demonstates this. [edit] and here torque and angular velocity don't vary porportionatel necasserily..

 

[Billsworld]

this is mostly right (specificity of muscle stuff)...but the is one thing wrong with it... and RapDaddyo forced the narrowing and tightening up of why this phenomina is happening... pushing through and pulling isn't what this is about... what it is about is if a rider at some time in his/her pedal rev uses the inertia of him and his bike to push against, as CycleFast put it... or in other words torques the pedal hard/harder at a point or points during the pedal rev... because inside the interia is very small meaning it's actually phyically impossible for him to pedal this way inside (with no inertial loading). for example, a rider could pull and push through but still load up the pedal at 2 o'clock and this rider would likely still have problems inside... because without inertial loading this loading up would be impossible

no inertial load (inside) - power varies with angular velocity varies with torque.. they all vary directly with each other (power curves of inside and out demonstrate this) [edit] vary "proportionately" is the word i was looking for

with inertial load (outside) - power varies with angular velocity and torque but torque and anguar velocity do not necessarily vary at the same rate.. i.e. i can increase torque and angular velocity at different rate... percisely because of the intertial loading... without it, it is physically impossible for me to do this... again the power curve demonstates this. [edit] and here torque and angular velocity don't vary porportionatel necasserily..

Sorry if this spins this thead out of controll everyone.....wher do you stsnd on powercranks?

 

[frenchyge]

this is mostly right (specificity of muscle stuff)...but the is one thing wrong with it... and RapDaddyo forced the narrowing and tightening up of why this phenomina is happening... pushing through and pulling isn't what this is about... what it is about is if a rider at some time in his/her pedal rev uses the inertia of him and his bike to push against, as CycleFast put it... or in other words torques the pedal hard/harder at a point or points during the pedal rev... because inside the interia is very small meaning it's actually phyically impossible for him to pedal this way inside (with no inertial loading). for example, a rider could pull and push through but still load up the pedal at 2 o'clock and this rider would likely still have problems inside... because without inertial loading this loading up would be impossible.

What you're saying here is no different than what I said above. If the torque is peakier outside, then it must be lower at most of the rest of the circle. This likely means that little is being applied through the deadspots, as I said in my explanation above. Additionally, while the torque may be peakier outside, it still doesn't explain *why* someone could/would/should produce more power outside than inside until you relate it back to some physiological limitations, or chalk it up to a mental block. Sounds like you've pretty much convinced yourself that you agree with what was said in the link I provided back in post #35.

RDO's saying that he essentially does what you're claiming is impossible above. Namely that he produces high, peaky torque on his downstroke indoors, and that his power does not vary with cadence, but rather with the force of his downstroke snap.

 

[peterwright]

this is mostly right (specificity of muscle stuff)...but the is one thing wrong with it... and RapDaddyo forced the narrowing and tightening up of why this phenomina is happening... pushing through and pulling isn't what this is about... what it is about is if a rider at some time in his/her pedal rev uses the inertia of him and his bike to push against, as CycleFast put it... or in other words torques the pedal hard/harder at a point or points during the pedal rev... because inside the interia is very small meaning it's actually phyically impossible for him to pedal this way inside (with no inertial loading). for example, a rider could pull and push through but still load up the pedal at 2 o'clock and this rider would likely still have problems inside... because without inertial loading this loading up would be impossible

no inertial load (inside) - power varies with angular velocity varies with torque.. they all vary directly with each other (power curves of inside and out demonstrate this) [edit] vary "proportionately" is the word i was looking for

with inertial load (outside) - power varies with angular velocity and torque but torque and anguar velocity do not necessarily vary at the same rate.. i.e. i can increase torque and angular velocity at different rate... percisely because of the intertial loading... without it, it is physically impossible for me to do this... again the power curve demonstates this. [edit] and here torque and angular velocity don't vary porportionatel necasserily..

So..does this say anything about the relative benefits of training indoors and out ? I certainly feel that as a rider with a tendency for "peaky" riding who enjoys ups and downs and changes in pace, I suffer more on the trainer and am far better outdoors. I have clients who are far more consistent and smooth flat riders (generally good at TT) and that these guys are naturally better on the trainer...

 

[SolarEnergy]

I have clients who are far more consistent and smooth flat riders (generally good at TT) and that these guys are naturally better on the trainer...

I had similar thoughts before starting to read the new posts in this thread.

I wouldn't draw the conclusion that those who do good indoor will always be better time trialists, but I think that it may help.

I don't do as good indoor than I do outdoor. But in all honesty with myself, I am very often a bit disapointed with my indoor workouts. Right now, my takes on my own performance level indoor is that I simply don't have the mental strenght to push hard enough, or complete my interval duration. I give up, I am a quitter.

Look at those who are able to perform as well indoor as outdoor. Andy, RapDaddyo, Ric, Frenchyge. They all have a very very high motivation level and mental strenght.

So what's the solution? Not sure. Now that the cadence issue is settled (I was overspinning before I realized how bad it was), I am gonna try few things. Shorter segments, various combinations, TdF and Giro videos, etc...

If it doesn't work, I may need to upgrade my Flow to an iMagic, and start racing against those virtual riders or something.

 

[peterwright]

I had similar thoughts before starting to read the new posts in this thread.

I wouldn't draw the conclusion that those who do good indoor will always be better time trialists, but I think that it may help.

I don't do as good indoor than I do outdoor. But in all honesty with myself, I am very often a bit disapointed with my indoor workouts. Right now, my takes on my own performance level indoor is that I simply don't have the mental strenght to push hard enough, or complete my interval duration. I give up, I am a quitter.

Look at those who are able to perform as well indoor as outdoor. Andy, RapDaddyo, Ric, Frenchyge. They all have a very very high motivation level and mental strenght.

So what's the solution? Not sure. Now that the cadence issue is settled (I was overspinning before I realized how bad it was), I am gonna try few things. Shorter segments, various combinations, TdF and Giro videos, etc...

If it doesn't work, I may need to upgrade my Flow to an iMagic, and start racing against those virtual riders or something.

I do not concur with this - I have several pro riders that are not short on motivation, and neither do I consider the issues I face while riding intervals indoors a lack of focus. IMO it is without a doubt harder for me to ride at the same power on the trainer and I attribute it to some sort of issue related to the stroke as has been discussed - this in turn may lead to a lack of drive but I can honestly say that I have on several occasions ridden myself into the ground trying to prove it is in my head....but I maintain it is not

 

[SolarEnergy]

IMO it is without a doubt harder for me to ride at the same power on the trainer and I attribute it to some sort of issue related to the stroke as has been discussed - this in turn may lead to a lack of drive but I can honestly say that I have on several occasions ridden myself into the ground trying to prove it is in my head....but I maintain it is not

Yeah maybe. I donno. And my previous comment was only limited to myself of course. The only guy I am helping at the moment will start measuring his power indoor only in January 2007.

But may I ask you Peter.
What do you plan to do about that ?

 

[RapDaddyo]

So..does this say anything about the relative benefits of training indoors and out ?

I certainly find that I need greater concentration and mental "strength" to do L4s indoors. Outdoors, it seems that I can sort of go on autopilot for awhile. Indoors, there is no autopilot mode, I must concentrate on every downstroke. So, I feel that doing intervals indoors makes me a stronger rider outdoors. When the going gets hard, I sort of go into indoor interval mental mode and concentrate intently on every downstroke. That's a lot of concentration -- 180-200 times per minute.

 

[SolarEnergy]

I certainly find that I need greater concentration and mental "strength" to do L4s indoors. Outdoors, it seems that I can sort of go on autopilot for awhile. Indoors, there is no autopilot mode, I must concentrate on every downstroke. So, I feel that doing intervals indoors makes me a stronger rider outdoors. When the going gets hard, I sort of go into indoor interval mental mode and concentrate intently on every downstroke. That's a lot of concentration -- 180-200 times per minute.

Do you monitor differences in physiological response? Maybe higher avg hr at the same power, or respiratory compensation point reached earlier ?

 

[RapDaddyo]

Do you monitor differences in physiological response? Maybe higher avg hr at the same power, or respiratory compensation point reached earlier ?

That all seems about the same, assuming the same cadence (which I always do anyway). And, when I get "on the bubble," my HR seems to respond the same way to slight changes in cadence and power. Most importantly, the muscular (quads) feedback seems identical as near as I can tell.

 

[peterwright]

Yeah maybe. I donno. And my previous comment was only limited to myself of course. The only guy I am helping at the moment will start measuring his power indoor only in January 2007.

But may I ask you Peter.
What do you plan to do about that ?

Well..at present it is limited to trying to provide a credible explanation and then to establish 2 FTP figures.

But it is not an easy thing to explain - hence my drive to find a solution

 

[SolarEnergy]

That all seems about the same, assuming the same cadence (which I always do anyway). And, when I get "on the bubble," my HR seems to respond the same way to slight changes in cadence and power. Most importantly, the muscular (quads) feedback seems identical as near as I can tell.

Interesting Thanks.