Question for SuzyJ

[Gags]

Suze,

What would be a ball park figure for materials to build up a frame??

I have recently been making enquiries about converting an old mtb to
horizontal dropouts and taking all of the brake cable lugs off for a smooth
looking SS. I made some enquiries to Gripsport and they provided me with a
quote of $320 for removal of lugs, conversion to horizontal dropouts
(includes gussets between seat and chain stays for strength and resetting of
width between dropouts to suit 110mm hub), and preparation/powder coating
the frame. They also added the advice that I may be over capitalising on
such and old frame (this only increased my opinion of them as this advice is
clearly not in their best interest $ wise).

I have also looked at a few prices on the net for On-One and Surly frames
and they seem to be around the $750 or so just for the frame and I am not
sure that I will be able to get one big enough.

I am now toying with the idea of making a SS frame up from scratch (inspired
by your efforts) and I was wondering what rough order of magnitude I am
looking at in the finance department.

I also seem to recall that you had a link to a site to calculate frame
angles/geometries etc (I will have to check your site again to confirm).
Did you end up using this or did you calculate angles manually?

Ride On,

Gags

 

[suzyj]

Gags wrote:

> What would be a ball park figure for materials to build up a frame??

It depends on what you're using. I've bought four sets of tubes so far, one set of Columbus Thron, two of Columbus Zona, and one of Columbus Genius.

Thron is their base-level butted set (similar to 531), and is probably the best sort of set to use for a first frame (I used it for my fixed wheel). My Thron tubeset cost about $70.

Zona is a bit better, and builds up about 300-400g lighter than Thron. It's a bit harder to work with, as the metal is a bit harder, and the ends are thinner. It's applicable to a modest race bike or a really good tourer. My Zona sets have been about $140 each.

Genius is pretty much top of the line (though obsolete - the current top sets are Spirit and Life, which are very similar). It's not really applicable to hard use, but would make a nice race bike (that's what I'll build with my Genius tubes, anyway). My Genius set cost $180. I suspect the current ones (Spirit/Life) would be a little dearer than that.

Lugs (if you use lugs) again vary a bit. A really basic set of crappy pressed lugs can be had for maybe $50-80. I've only used investment cast ones thus far, which are a bit dearer (though really nice to work with). The lugs for the fixed wheel and Audax bike were in the neighborhood of $100 a set. Henry James ones are a little pricier than that - say $140. Then there's all the bits and bobs - brake bridge, cable stops, downtube lever bosses, bidon cage bosses - say $20-30.

So the steel for a frame can be anywhere from $150 odd to $350 odd.

> I have recently been making enquiries about converting an old
> mtb to horizontal dropouts and taking all of the brake cable lugs
> off for a smooth looking SS. I made some enquiries to Gripsport
> and they provided me with a quote of $320 for removal of lugs,
> conversion to horizontal dropouts (includes gussets between seat
> and chain stays for strength and resetting of width between
> dropouts to suit 110mm hub), and preparation/powder coating
> the frame. They also added the advice that I may be over
> capitalising on such and old frame (this only increased my opinion
> of them as this advice is clearly not in their best interest $ wise).

This sounds like a superb price, as there's a lot of fairly fiddly work in that sort of modification.

> I am now toying with the idea of making a SS frame up from
> scratch (inspired by your efforts) and I was wondering what
> rough order of magnitude I am looking at in the finance department.

The most expensive things for me have been paint related. If you just get your frame powdercoated or whatever then you'll save a bundle. I've blown heaps of money on silkscreening bits and spraypainting bits, not to mention the shockingly expensive ($100/litre) two part epoxy paint that I've been using.

Other expensive bits have been the brazing kit (around $350 from memory), and tools. Headset reamer/facers are really pricy, but well worth it. So far I haven't needed to buy a bottom bracket facer or taps, nor a seat tube reamer, as silver soldering doesn't distort the tubing or lugs like brass brazing or TIG does. If you've got a friendly bike shop with these things then that would be cool.

> I also seem to recall that you had a link to a site to calculate frame
> angles/geometries etc (I will have to check your site again to confirm).
> Did you end up using this or did you calculate angles manually?

There's a java applet on the web called bikecad, which you can use to pretty much design the whole frame. I used this a little, but have tended more recently to just use Autocad to design frames, as I'm used to drafting with Autocad and find it's more flexible.

My advice is to join the framebuilders list, have a bit of a browse through their archives, and order some tubes and lugs, and have a go.

Best of luck!

Regards,

Suzy

 

[Terry Collins]

suzyj wrote:

> Other expensive bits have been the brazing kit (around $350 from
> memory),

err, from memory, you need two gauges/regulators, two hoses, 2 flash
back arrestors, hand piece and tip, which should be under $350 even if
you buy the Comet (CIG/BOC goodie). However, it is probably easier to
pick up basic oxy kit for ~$250 at cheap tool shops. Visit a TAFE shop
for economical googles and gloves ($5 riggers).

The HARD part is getting the cylinders of oxygen and acetylene. Unless
you already have two of these and have a mate in the business, these
have to be rented by a business (ABN please), so that is ~$100 each
(large size- you don't need these) and $20/month/cylinder rental. Either
BOC or Linde Gas.

If anyone has RECENT PRACTICAL experience renting, I would be interested
in hearing differently, but don't tell me any stories from mates. I have
spent the last three years chasing up all the ways one can apparently
avoid cyclinder rental, all to no avail.

 

[Bleve]

Steal them

Seriously though, if you're only soldering, do you need oxyacetaline,
or can you get away with a fine torch on an LPG tank?

'course, you can buy a MIG these days pretty cheap ...

 

[suzyj]

Terry Collins wrote:

> err, from memory, you need two gauges/regulators, two hoses, 2 flash
> back arrestors, hand piece and tip, which should be under $350 even if
> you buy the Comet (CIG/BOC goodie). However, it is probably easier to
> pick up basic oxy kit for ~$250 at cheap tool shops. Visit a TAFE shop
> for economical googles and gloves ($5 riggers).

I bought a Comet kit. It came with handpiece, mixer (bit between the tips and the handpiece), hoses, and regulators with gauges, plus an awful flint lighter thingy and some goggles (which I don't use as they're too dark for silver. I also bought a selection of heating tips - no. 8 (good for braze-ons), 10, 12, and 15 (good for bottom brackets), and a set of Harris flashback arrestors.

More recently I bought an LPG regulator and a couple of LPG tips.

> The HARD part is getting the cylinders of oxygen and acetylene. Unless
> you already have two of these and have a mate in the business, these
> have to be rented by a business (ABN please), so that is ~$100 each
> (large size- you don't need these) and $20/month/cylinder rental. Either
> BOC or Linde Gas.

> If anyone has RECENT PRACTICAL experience renting, I would be interested
> in hearing differently, but don't tell me any stories from mates. I have
> spent the last three years chasing up all the ways one can apparently
> avoid cyclinder rental, all to no avail.

I use Liquid Air gas. I rent the cylinders, at about $20/month (D size cylinders). Even if you use LPG, you'll still need to rent an oxy cylinder. I rent both oxy and acetylene, as it's nice to have the acetylene for stuff (like fillets) that LPG isn't really hot enough for.

The mob I bought my gear from (RQ welding in Botany) were really good to deal with, and were perfectly happy to rent cylinders (they're liquid air agents) to an individual rather than a company. Don't waste your time with BOC. They're a PITA.

Cheers,

Suzy

 

[Koon Yong]

Suze,

I made some enquiries to Gripsport and they provided me with a
quote of $320 for removal of lugs, conversion to horizontal dropouts
(includes gussets between seat and chain stays for strength and resetting of
width between dropouts to suit 110mm hub), and preparation/powder coating
the frame. They also added the advice that I may be over capitalising on
such and old frame (this only increased my opinion of them as this advice is
clearly not in their best interest $ wise).

Gags

Yo Gags,

Sorry for the off-topic here but should you decide to stick with your old MTB frame, one option might be to use that $320 to get a nice ENO hub built (OK good wheel build will cost more than that). As for the all those cable guides etc, file them off. I spent about 2 weeks at night sitting in front of the tele doing this and touched up the paint with nail polish.

The ENO wheel can be transfered should you ever decide to change the frame. Plus it gives you lots of frame options (not just SS specific frames).

Cheers
Koon

 

[Brett]

Bleve wrote:

> Steal them
>
> Seriously though, if you're only soldering, do you need oxyacetaline,
> or can you get away with a fine torch on an LPG tank?
>
> 'course, you can buy a MIG these days pretty cheap ...
>

In my former life as a mechanic, we bought a special tip for our
oxyacetylene torch that allowed us to braze without using an oxygen
cylinder. It basically screwed on the end of a #10 or #12 tip and mixed
air with the acetylene, just like your standard butane torch. Gave a
lovely soft flame that stopped us from getting hot spots, but still
heated the base metal enough for the bronze to flow properly.

Can't remember where we bought it, but you can see a similar style of
thing at:

http://www.gossonline.com/torches_&_tips.htm
http://www.gossonline.com/soldering_&_brazing_kits.htm

--
Brett "Who's trying to forget his old life..."

 

[TimC]

On Fri, 08 Apr 2005 at 02:57 GMT, Bleve (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Steal them
>
> Seriously though, if you're only soldering, do you need oxyacetaline,
> or can you get away with a fine torch on an LPG tank?
>
> 'course, you can buy a MIG these days pretty cheap ...

I find it amusing that your nick is Bleve, and you are talking about
LPG tanks.

Boom!

--
TimC -- http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/staff/tconnors/
I like the US government, makes the Aussie one look less dumb
and THAT is a pretty big effort. -- Craig Small

 

[Bleve]

Tim wins an elephant stamp

 

[hippy]

Koon Yong wrote:
> Sorry for the off-topic here but should you decide to stick with your
> old MTB frame, one option might be to use that $320 to get a nice ENO
> hub built (OK good wheel build will cost more than that). As for the
> all those cable guides etc, file them off. I spent about 2 weeks at
> night sitting in front of the tele doing this and touched up the paint
> with nail polish.

If you are careful, you can remove those guides and stuff in an hour or
two with an angle grinder followed by some filing:
http://www.thehippy.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6

1) Don't do it to a soopa-doopa frame
2) Don't slip

hippy

 

[Koon Yong]

Koon Yong wrote:
> Sorry for the off-topic here but should you decide to stick with your
> old MTB frame, one option might be to use that $320 to get a nice ENO
> hub built (OK good wheel build will cost more than that). As for the
> all those cable guides etc, file them off. I spent about 2 weeks at
> night sitting in front of the tele doing this and touched up the paint
> with nail polish.

If you are careful, you can remove those guides and stuff in an hour or
two with an angle grinder followed by some filing:
http://www.thehippy.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6

1) Don't do it to a soopa-doopa frame
2) Don't slip

hippy

Oops ... re-read my post and realised it sounded like it was a pain in the @ss to file off cable guides. Forgot to mention that I was mostly watching tele then filing. Only did some filing when the ads came on. Was pretty easy actually.

Koon

 

[hippy]

NoZX6R wrote:
>>> If you are careful, you can remove those guides and stuff in an hour
>>> or two with an angle grinder followed by some filing:
>>> http://www.thehippy.net/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=6
>>>
>>> 1) Don't do it to a soopa-doopa frame
>>> 2) Don't slip
>>
>> Oops ... re-read my post and realised it sounded like it was a pain in
>> the @ss to file off cable guides. Forgot to mention that I was mostly
>> watching tele then filing. Only did some filing when the ads came on.
>> Was pretty easy actually.
>
> But not as much fun as an angle grinder

hahaha you read my mind!

hippy
"Whatever you do - don't give hippy any powertools!!"

 

[stu]

"Bleve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Steal them
>
> Seriously though, if you're only soldering, do you need oxyacetaline,
> or can you get away with a fine torch on an LPG tank?
>
> 'course, you can buy a MIG these days pretty cheap ...
>
But you still have a bottle to rent, unless you use flux wire, which last
time I looked cost heaps. (but for the amount you would use on a bike frame
it wouldn't matter much)

Now to my question. Has anyone use both gas and gasless MIGs and if so what
did they think of the gasless? (it could be a little unfair to compare them
as gasless are normally at the lower end of the price scale, so the wire
might not be the whole story)

BTW I rent my bottle from BOC but I have had the account for 10+years, so
have no idea what it would be like to try and get one now. Back then you
just gave them a street address and maybe licence number. Until a few months
ago it was a real account I could buy what I liked and they would invoice me
for it at the end of the month.
the only thing I could add about oxyacetylene bottles is they are now pretty
fussy about the vehicle you pick them up in, really needs to be a ute

stu (who spends more on bottle rental than he does on wire)

 

[Terry Collins]

stu wrote:
> "Bleve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
>>Steal them
>>
>>Seriously though, if you're only soldering, do you need oxyacetaline,
>>or can you get away with a fine torch on an LPG tank?
>>
>>'course, you can buy a MIG these days pretty cheap ...
>>
>
> But you still have a bottle to rent, unless you use flux wire, which last
> time I looked cost heaps. (but for the amount you would use on a bike frame
> it wouldn't matter much)
>
> Now to my question. Has anyone use both gas and gasless MIGs and if so what
> did they think of the gasless?

Shite. I've migged with gas only.

I have also seen an endless stream of people attending welding at TAFE
that have had trouble with gasless mig.

My 2c, Mig isn't good for thin metals unless you are very skilled and
everything is ultra clean.

If you want to do Mig, then you might as well go Tig and get the ability
to do a wider range of welding (materials wise).

 

[suzyj]

Terry Collins wrote:

> My 2c, Mig isn't good for thin metals unless you are very skilled and
> everything is ultra clean.

> If you want to do Mig, then you might as well go Tig and get the ability
> to do a wider range of welding (materials wise).

Not that I know anything about electric welding (I only play with fire), but the only bikes I know of that are made with MIG are Greenspeeds, and they use (relatively) thick tubes. Pretty much everyone who welds bike frames uses TIG.

One of these days I'll blow the $3K on a TIG welder and have a play with that, but so far I haven't done anything that really needed TIG.

Regards,

Suzy

 

[stu]

"Terry Collins" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> stu wrote:
> > "Bleve" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >>Steal them
> >>
> >>Seriously though, if you're only soldering, do you need oxyacetaline,
> >>or can you get away with a fine torch on an LPG tank?
> >>
> >>'course, you can buy a MIG these days pretty cheap ...
> >>
> >
> > But you still have a bottle to rent, unless you use flux wire, which
last
> > time I looked cost heaps. (but for the amount you would use on a bike
frame
> > it wouldn't matter much)
> >
> > Now to my question. Has anyone use both gas and gasless MIGs and if so
what
> > did they think of the gasless?
>
> Shite. I've migged with gas only.
>
> I have also seen an endless stream of people attending welding at TAFE
> that have had trouble with gasless mig.
Thanks, I was thinking about getting a roll to save me draging my bottle
around sometimes, looks like i may as well save my money.
but could it be dodgy power source and wire feed?
but the whole point of MIG is point and shoot (until you talk about thin
stuff)

>
> My 2c, Mig isn't good for thin metals unless you are very skilled and
> everything is ultra clean.
mine will go down to .75mm but thats with .6mm wire and a top $$ shield
gas(and its more a row of tacks than a weld)

>
> If you want to do Mig, then you might as well go Tig and get the ability
> to do a wider range of welding (materials wise).
i havent looked at the price of TIGs for years, i have the cables, but no
power source . one day i might just try them on a stick welder, but i
dont think the current will go low enough for really thin stuff

 

[Carl Brewer]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:34:29 +1000, suzyj
<[email protected]> wrote:


>Not that I know anything about electric welding (I only play with
>fire), but the only bikes I know of that are made with MIG are
>Greenspeeds, and they use (relatively) thick tubes.

And they're not bikes!

 

[flyingdutch]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:34:29 +1000, suzyj
<[email protected]> wrote:


>Not that I know anything about electric welding (I only play with
>fire), but the only bikes I know of that are made with MIG are
>Greenspeeds, and they use (relatively) thick tubes.

And they're not bikes!

a 2 wheeled one could be classified as one couldnt it?
cycles and has 2 wheels = bicycle, cest ne pas?

 

[Carl Brewer]

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 16:15:22 +1000, flyingdutch
<[email protected]> wrote:

>
>Carl Brewer Wrote:
>> On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 13:34:29 +1000, suzyj
>> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >Not that I know anything about electric welding (I only play with
>> >fire), but the only bikes I know of that are made with MIG are
>> >Greenspeeds, and they use (relatively) thick tubes.
>>
>> And they're not bikes!
>
>a 2 wheeled one could be classified as one couldnt it?
>cycles and has 2 wheels = bicycle, cest ne pas?

I think they only make trikes though?

 

[Terry Collins]

stu wrote:

>>I have also seen an endless stream of people attending welding at TAFE
>>that have had trouble with gasless mig.
>
> Thanks, I was thinking about getting a roll to save me draging my bottle
> around sometimes, looks like i may as well save my money.
> but could it be dodgy power source and wire feed?

Many people with gear from cheapies from the tool shop to trailer jobs
where they decided to buy gasless wire. Most just accept they have
brought a lemon and they would have been better of buying a stick unit.

The full trailer mounted model (diesel engine + gen/welder) turn out to
be dodgy wire. Basically used for heavy weld e.g. pads on buckets, etc.
The boss had brought a bulk lot cheap and it had been badly stored for
years. The guy welding was good at that sort of welding and persevered
for months trying to sort it out. In the end, he purchased a new role
himself (boss was really a cheap skate it seemed) and bingo.


Myself, I accept that if I want to do frames and thin stuff, I will have
to braze.