Question on road bike tire quality

[nbfman]

I have been using fairly expensive tires for the last year (Vittoria Open Corsa - around equivalent of US$55 in JP). Recently, on a long ride, I had to change just the front to whatever was available near by because it was chewed up and had flatted twice within a few hours. From the location of the leak and the corresponding part of the tire, I confirmed that both flats were due to sharp rocks tearing through the tire and not due to old rim tape etc). The new tire was a Vittoria Zaffiro (around equivalent of US$25 in JP).

A few days later, I went to an LBS to buy a matching tire for the rear, and, to my surprise, the store owner told me that he did not carry such low end models. He said that my Zaffiro was only a training tire (humorous to someone like me) and had inferior "grip". This led me to read more about what Vittoria had to say about these models. The main structural difference seems to be "TPI" - threads per inch. Open Corsa has 290 TPI, and Zaffiro has 60 TPI. Their web page explains that higher TPI requires less rubber, which reduces weight (230g vs 280g); increases flexibility, hence riding comfort; and lowers rolling resistance. The latter is supposedly true because the deformation of the tire due to small bumps in the road is less.

I'm wondering what people can share about their experiences with this level of difference in tires (does not have to be Vittoria, of course). Is this something that only makes a difference to an elite cyclist in a hill climb race or trying to hold a corner at 70 kmph? Any testimonials on enhanced comfort or reduced fatigue thanks to lower rolling resistance? Perhaps most importantly, are tires like the Zaffiro less prone to punctures and wear?

Thanks in advance.

 

[Peter@vecchios]

I have been using fairly expensive tires for the last year (Vittoria Open Corsa - around equivalent of US$55 in JP). Recently, on a long ride, I had to change just the front to whatever was available near by because it was chewed up and had flatted twice within a few hours. From the location of the leak and the corresponding part of the tire, I confirmed that both flats were due to sharp rocks tearing through the tire and not due to old rim tape etc). The new tire was a Vittoria Zaffiro (around equivalent of US$25 in JP).

A few days later, I went to an LBS to buy a matching tire for the rear, and, to my surprise, the store owner told me that he did not carry such low end models. He said that my Zaffiro was only a training tire (humorous to someone like me) and had inferior "grip". This led me to read more about what Vittoria had to say about these models. The main structural difference seems to be "TPI" - threads per inch. Open Corsa has 290 TPI, and Zaffiro has 60 TPI. Their web page explains that higher TPI requires less rubber, which reduces weight (230g vs 280g); increases flexibility, hence riding comfort; and lowers rolling resistance. The latter is supposedly true because the deformation of the tire due to small bumps in the road is less.

I'm wondering what people can share about their experiences with this level of difference in tires (does not have to be Vittoria, of course). Is this something that only makes a difference to an elite cyclist in a hill climb race or trying to hold a corner at 70 kmph? Any testimonials on enhanced comfort or reduced fatigue thanks to lower rolling resistance? Perhaps most importantly, are tires like the Zaffiro less prone to punctures and wear?

Thanks in advance.

High end tires, like the Conti 4000s and OpenCorsa from Vittoria are designed to be racing tires. More expensive, more TPI, lighter but no such thing as a free lunch. Like high end, racey type tires on a car, better grip, less life, more prone to cuts, flats, etc. Bicycle tire differences are small from high to 'low' end, in terms of rolling resistance, feel, comfort. Tires are mostly there to get you there. Zaffiros, Ultra Races(Conti) are great tires and will work well for you.

 

[p38lightning]

I'm an old, heavy (250lb) rider who only does commuting/recreational rides. "Low end" tires are all I use, after having experimented with Continental mid price clinchers years ago. The Contis (3 sets) never lasted long enough to wear down the tread and were destroyed completely by cuts and side wall tears. Flats were excessive. I went to a lower end Vittoria (the Rubino) which gave good life and stick, which I wore the tread off in time. I tried Specialized Armadillos, which wear forever, and are flat resistant, but ride like STONES and handle worse! Now I use Zaffiros and Forte GT2(Performance Bike house brand) tires. The Zaffiros handle well, wear well and are flat resistant. In my opinion the Zaffiros are the better tire with one big caviat. They can be very difficult to mount on certain rims as they seem to be sized slightly small. This could cause trouble if you get a flat on the road. The GT2s are easy to mount and are durable, decent performing, and down right cheap at $6.99 per tire.I tried Specialized's low end sport tire which was fine for about 500 miles, and then came flats and flats and flats, so much so that I junked them. Don't go there.

The trade off is always:
1.Low weight, low roll resistance, better stick and handling, but higher cost, lower wear, lower durability with high end tires.
2. Durability, flat resistance, lower cost, but lower stick, and handling with low end tires.
Your riding style and needs will dictate what is the best choice, not price. (I'd have second thoughts about the dealer who suggests that low end tires are inferior in every case so he doesn't carry them!)

Flat resistance is greatly increased with the use of heavy duty tubes, but at the sacrifice of more wheel weight, handling and rolling resistance.

 

[garage sale GT]

I don't use the ultrahigh tpi deluxe tires, but I believe rolling resistance is all about how much rubber you deform, because it doesn't spring back with the same force it took to flex it. Internal friction converts some of your work to heating the tire.

Low tpi tires have thicker cords which are less likely to tear when they hit a rock or something. If the rock you bump up against is sharp enough, then only one cord takes most of the tension. However, there's more rubber between the cords. Safer, but higher rr. A cord in a 26tpi carcass is much stronger than a cord in a 125tpi carcass.

I have never seriously damaged a cheap tire, but they either ride rough or use more pedal power if run with less pressure. I have torn the cords in a 23mm Conti Ultrasport in the middle of the tread just by braking over a sharp rock. A two inch section was bulged and broken cords from the middle layer were poking out of the inside layer.

You won't win many races on thick tires but criteriums are run on swept roads. People die or get seriously injured from sidewall failures.

 

[garage sale GT]

I have never seriously damaged a cheap tire, but they either ride rough or use more pedal power if run with less pressure. I have torn the cords in a 23mm Conti Ultrasport in the middle of the tread just by braking over a sharp rock. A two inch section was bulged and broken cords from the middle layer were poking out of the inside layer.

I mean of course a really cheap tire, the 1970s duplicates you find at department stores. The ultrasport is an 84 tpi tire, after all. Plus, the ultrasport may have been on the verge of overinflation.

 

[FasterthanU]

In my experience, many high end tires are also less weather resistant. UV radiation and the wet and dry process from rain really takes its toll on the sidewalls. Consumers often expect a higher priced tire to last longer. Just ain't so. -FTU

 

[alienator]

I don't use the ultrahigh tpi deluxe tires, but I believe rolling resistance is all about how much rubber you deform, because it doesn't spring back with the same force it took to flex it. Internal friction converts some of your work to heating the tire.

Low tpi tires have thicker cords which are less likely to tear when they hit a rock or something. If the rock you bump up against is sharp enough, then only one cord takes most of the tension. However, there's more rubber between the cords. Safer, but higher rr. A cord in a 26tpi carcass is much stronger than a cord in a 125tpi carcass.

I have never seriously damaged a cheap tire, but they either ride rough or use more pedal power if run with less pressure. I have torn the cords in a 23mm Conti Ultrasport in the middle of the tread just by braking over a sharp rock. A two inch section was bulged and broken cords from the middle layer were poking out of the inside layer.

You won't win many races on thick tires but criteriums are run on swept roads. People die or get seriously injured from sidewall failures.

More expensive tires might get you any number of things:

1. Higher thread count, which generally--not always--means lower rolling resistance.
2. Better flat/cut protection. Gatorskins are a good example, although Sprinter Gatorskins tubies are cheaper than other tubies. Vectran, Spectra, Kevlar don't come cheap. It's also possible that you might only get better flat protection marketing.
3. Grippier rubber. This is usually more true than the first two points, especially as the tech in rubber gets more advanced or as rubber comes from expensive programs, like GP racing. One fact of grip is that the grippiest tires are black. Colored tires have a high silica content while the grippiest tires have a high carbon black content, which leaves a tire, well, black. This doesn't mean, though, that all black tires are grippy.
4. More cut resistant rubber.....sometimes. Newer rubber formulations, like Conti's new Black Chili are more cut resistant, as are some newish, softer compounds. Cut resistance is a complicated thing and isn't a simple matter of hard versus soft. It's all about polymer chains and cross linking and other polymer engineering black magic stuff.

I've been using, lately, Maxxis Refuse tires, which were $35-ish a tire, are very cut resistant and after a thousand miles or so have been uber flat resistant. They ride plenty nice and are grippy enough to not cause undue emotional stress when approaching corners at ridiculous speeds.

 

[nbfman]

You won't win many races on thick tires but criteriums are run on swept roads. People die or get seriously injured from sidewall failures.

Two questions.

I don't race, but I'm wondering about the comment on criteriums, where the worse tire can limit the ability to win. For Zaffiro-class tires ($20) and Open Corsa-class tires ($55), have you felt noticable differences in areas like acceleration, pedaling effort, descent speed, etc? At my level, I feel just as slow and fatigued with one as with the other, but I'm wondering if higher level cyclists or elite cyclists can tell the difference or have seen it affect their "performances".

Also, this idea of serious injury or death from side wall failure has me thinking that I need to understand this better. What exactly is this type of failure? What triggers it? What are the signs of a tire being close to failing on the side wall? My remaining Open Corsa tire has little rips or gouges in the rubber, so I thought it was time to change it. The LBS guy took a look and thought it was still OK, though. Any advice on visual criteria for when it's time to change? The tire was slick, so tread visibility is not a useful metric in this case.

 

[alienator]

Two questions.

I don't race, but I'm wondering about the comment on criteriums, where the worse tire can limit the ability to win. For Zaffiro-class tires ($20) and Open Corsa-class tires ($55), have you felt noticable differences in areas like acceleration, pedaling effort, descent speed, etc? At my level, I feel just as slow and fatigued with one as with the other, but I'm wondering if higher level cyclists or elite cyclists can tell the difference or have seen it affect their "performances".

I'm not Garage Sale GT, but I do play him on TV.

You're not going to see a difference in acceleration between different tires. What works for you will be what you're most comfortable on. If you're comfortable on or with a tire, you'll feel more comfortable pushing speed through a corner or when blasting down hill. A lot of that comfort will come from having the right inflation pressure, which to some degree, is personal preference.

Also, this idea of serious injury or death from side wall failure has me thinking that I need to understand this better. What exactly is this type of failure? What triggers it? What are the signs of a tire being close to failing on the side wall? My remaining Open Corsa tire has little rips or gouges in the rubber, so I thought it was time to change it. The LBS guy took a look and thought it was still OK, though. Any advice on visual criteria for when it's time to change? The tire was slick, so tread visibility is not a useful metric in this case.

Side wall failures are exceedingly remote occurances. The more likely thing to happen is to have a rock or other road debris cut a sidewall. This is likely the reason behind 99.9% of all sidewall failures (the number was chosen for dramatic effect.). Some tires are more sensitive to sidewall cuts, specifically Contis and Schwalbe Ultremos (up until this year's new models, anyway.).

Visual criteria for changing a tire....cuts that go all the way through the sidewall are a deal killer (for me, anyway). Likewise, cuts that go all the way through the tire crown and casing are also reasons for binning a tire. Cuts, in general, are no big deal, unless there are a ton of 'em and/or they spook you. You can ride tires until the cords start showing.

Whether or not there is patterned tread visible on the tire makes zero difference.

 

[Albert 50]

this idea of serious injury or death from side wall failure has me thinking that I need to understand this better. What exactly is this type of failure? What triggers it? What are the signs of a tire being close to failing on the side wall?

A very good rule of thumb is always have your best/newest tyre on the front, which is no guarantee the front won't puncture, more of a % thing. The main reason for this is that a rear tyre flat, particularly one that may cause the tube to explode & deflate instantly, is more controllable than a similar front flat.
I've only had one side wall explode which was caused by a glass cut. It was on the rear on a straight stretch of road fortunately.
Inspect tyres regularly for nicks & cuts. Any cuts to multiple threads need careful consideration as to whether you will risk it or not. If I have thread cuts to a oldish tyre I bin it.

 

[garage sale GT]

Two questions.

I don't race, but I'm wondering about the comment on criteriums, where the worse tire can limit the ability to win. For Zaffiro-class tires ($20) and Open Corsa-class tires ($55), have you felt noticable differences in areas like acceleration, pedaling effort, descent speed, etc? At my level, I feel just as slow and fatigued with one as with the other, but I'm wondering if higher level cyclists or elite cyclists can tell the difference or have seen it affect their "performances".

Also, this idea of serious injury or death from side wall failure has me thinking that I need to understand this better. What exactly is this type of failure? What triggers it? What are the signs of a tire being close to failing on the side wall? My remaining Open Corsa tire has little rips or gouges in the rubber, so I thought it was time to change it. The LBS guy took a look and thought it was still OK, though. Any advice on visual criteria for when it's time to change? The tire was slick, so tread visibility is not a useful metric in this case.

I don't race either and don't know about any high end tires. I was just trying to express my suspicion that some of those tires' performance may be obtained at some expense to durability.

I don't think sidewalls wear through. Sometimes they just get cut. I don't know how much damage they can withstand and still be safe. If several cords are damaged, I pitch the tire.

 

[dhk2]

Two questions.

I don't race, but I'm wondering about the comment on criteriums, where the worse tire can limit the ability to win. For Zaffiro-class tires ($20) and Open Corsa-class tires ($55), have you felt noticable differences in areas like acceleration, pedaling effort, descent speed, etc? At my level, I feel just as slow and fatigued with one as with the other, but I'm wondering if higher level cyclists or elite cyclists can tell the difference or have seen it affect their "performances".

Also, this idea of serious injury or death from side wall failure has me thinking that I need to understand this better. What exactly is this type of failure? What triggers it? What are the signs of a tire being close to failing on the side wall? My remaining Open Corsa tire has little rips or gouges in the rubber, so I thought it was time to change it. The LBS guy took a look and thought it was still OK, though. Any advice on visual criteria for when it's time to change? The tire was slick, so tread visibility is not a useful metric in this case.

I've got the Open Corsa CX tires on now. A test I'd seen showed that they saved a couple of watts over my old fav GP 4000 so I thought I'd give them a try. Can't say I notice the difference in RR, but they do seem to ride "softer" @ 110-120 psi. The steering of the bike actually felt a bit different when I first mounted them, maybe something like radials.

The wear band on the tire is very thin, almost like a piece of rubber tape glued on the casing. Doubt the rear will go more than 1500 miles for me. Also, the rubber seems to be easily cut by gravel. Picked up a cut very quickly on the front tire that goes in a radial direction from the center to the edge of the wear band. It hasn't opened up or caused a problem, but never have gotten a slice in the tread like this with 4000's.

The box states that these are race tires, designed for maximum grip and speed, and warns to avoid gravel, glass and road debris. Based on my experience so far, this appears to be very good advice

 

[alienator]

Tire tech has been accelerating rapidly, but perceptions don't change as quickly as the tech. When I was racing motocycles, the hot tire, a Dunlop intermediate GP rain tire, for racing would shred like crazy, leaving "snot"--balled up rubber--at the edges of the tire and all over the inside of the fenders. Years down the road, tires for the same races don't really ball up and have more grip. Same stuff goes on with bike tires.

Note the historical attachment to the wonders of tubular tires, all the while Michelin has put out tires--PR2 and PR3--that challenge those long held ideas that tubulars are the mac daddy. People'll say that tubies corner better, but that better is never quantified or described in depth. I know all my recent tires--tubie and clincher--have stuck in corners, and I also know I damn well don't want to slide them like motorcycle front tires were slid going into corners at racetracks.

While TPI is usually different between tubies and clinchers, the real significant difference is that tubie tech hasn't kept apace of clincher technology. I think that Vittoria and Veloflex--and Dugast, FMB, and Challenge--will get left behind, or at least left on the fringe, as Conti, Michelin, Maxxis, and others apply the fruits of their comparatively huge R&D budgets to their bike tires. If Bridgestone enters the market as they've suggested, it'll get doubly tough on the little guys.

There are some textiles, too, that will hit the market in the nearish future that will likely redefine what puncture resistance means. Some are classified and restricted, now, and some need for economies of scale to catch up, but they're out there, judging by what's been published in research journals.

 

[sideshow_bob]

You're not going to see a difference in acceleration between different tires. What works for you will be what you're most comfortable on. If you're comfortable on or with a tire, you'll feel more comfortable pushing speed through a corner or when blasting down hill. A lot of that comfort will come from having the right inflation pressure, which to some degree, is personal preference.

Thats pretty accurate. Once a race starts about the last thing you are thinking is "I hope these tires roll fast", generally in terms of speed you can't tell any difference either at high constant rolling speed or stop/start accelerations. However when you are crit racing and taking 90 deg + corners at 60kph+ the thought does in fact cross your mind "I hope these tires stick".

Having said that most crit racing is done on pretty nice hot mix surfaces. In the dry theres negligible difference in performance, same goes when the conditions are truly horrible. The biggest difference I've seen is when the conditions are mixed or marginal. Then nice soft sticky rubber does allow you to push harder (or of course this might all be in my head).

 

[DJA]

Two questions.

I don't race, but I'm wondering about the comment on criteriums, where the worse tire can limit the ability to win. For Zaffiro-class tires ($20) and Open Corsa-class tires ($55), have you felt noticable differences in areas like acceleration, pedaling effort, descent speed, etc? At my level, I feel just as slow and fatigued with one as with the other, but I'm wondering if higher level cyclists or elite cyclists can tell the difference or have seen it affect their "performances".

Also, this idea of serious injury or death from side wall failure has me thinking that I need to understand this better. What exactly is this type of failure? What triggers it? What are the signs of a tire being close to failing on the side wall? My remaining Open Corsa tire has little rips or gouges in the rubber, so I thought it was time to change it. The LBS guy took a look and thought it was still OK, though. Any advice on visual criteria for when it's time to change? The tire was slick, so tread visibility is not a useful metric in this case.

I like to race on Conti 4000s ( black chilli) they have a good feel in all weather and seam to by less prone to damage from glass and debri. Micheli pro race2 are good but I dont feel as comfortable on them but a friend swears by them.

Recently on a training ride we had a long gradual downhill slope the kind you can do about 60Kph all the way and no need to brake. My friend and I stayed together all the way to the bottom. He would only get in front until I slip streamed him to catch up( he is 10 to 15 KG heavier so should be slightly quicker without slip stream). But the third guy that was with us at the top was left for dead. Even thou he peddled to try and keep up, was unable to stay with as, the differance bottom to middle range tyres that he had on. By the way we didn't try to burn him.

I have only had 1 side wall go on a tyre while riding. A Conti gator let go of it steel beading mid corner. Didn't cause a crash but certainly gave me a frieght. My tyres and worn out form use well before the side walls fails. Which is useally a result of age of the tyre as the rubber is exposed to uv rays or an unlucky hit of road debri.

 

[sogood]

After going through a few different tyre models, I'd say that the value on high end tyres comes in,

1) Grip. Obviously a performance as well as a safety issue.
2) Puncture resistance. Simply saves me time.

 

[parawolf]

Recently on a training ride we had a long gradual downhill slope the kind you can do about 60Kph all the way and no need to brake. My friend and I stayed together all the way to the bottom. He would only get in front until I slip streamed him to catch up( he is 10 to 15 KG heavier so should be slightly quicker without slip stream). But the third guy that was with us at the top was left for dead. Even thou he peddled to try and keep up, was unable to stay with as, the differance bottom to middle range tyres that he had on. By the way we didn't try to burn him.

On such a descent, aerodynamics makes a huge difference. As a result i'd be saying that bike setup would be making a larger difference here than tyre rolling resistance.

 

[garage sale GT]

Wouldn't you more experienced riders agree that one way to get more grip and a better ride would be to not run the tire at the absolute highest pressure? If you have a fine sidewall, it doesn't slow you down too much.

 

[alienator]

Wouldn't you more experienced riders agree that one way to get more grip and a better ride would be to not run the tire at the absolute highest pressure? If you have a fine sidewall, it doesn't slow you down too much.

The only place it comes close to making sense to run the highest pressure possible would be a velodrome. Otherwise, pressures that are too high slow you down by:

1. Not allowing the tire to conform to road irregularities, forcing the tire to bounce off of bumps and other such things. This causes energy to be bled off in directions other than where you want to go. The tire doesn't even have to lose contact with the ground for this to happen.
2. Decreasing the size of the contact patch, thus reducing corner speed.
3. Decreasing the temp of the tire carcass, decreasing the tire's grip.
4. Fatiguing the rider over the course of a long ride.

As a bonus, pressures that are too high make a tire more vulnerable to punctures and cut sidewalls. Also, if you're doing big descents, tire pressure that's too high coupled with rim heating from braking can cause the tire bead to elongate enough--or even melt--potentially causing bead failure and rapid tire deflation, followed by rapid grinding of flesh and bone on pavement.

 

[nbfman]

Well, the Open Corsa was retired. Thanks to this discussion, it was on my mind to check the tire before embarking on a long climb in order to ensure a safe descent. What I saw is as attached (hope attachment works) i.e. detached patch of rubber about 1x0.5 cm in size, exposing threads underneath. As someone mentioned, the rubber layer does indeed look very thin - like noticably <0.5 mm. My spare happened to be a blue Bontrager Racelite, so I'll just to ride a while longer with a mix of tires between front/rear. Front black, rear blue looks somewhat odd, but I'll live.

One question is under what conditions would you keep riding on a tire like this? Would you change it at first sight? Would you risk another 40-50 km to get home? Would you reinforce the area with something like tape before riding any further?

Also, can you let me know what tire pressures work best for you. I always pump my tires to 120 PSI and do not like it when I can see the tire noticably bulging to both sides of the rim when riding the bike. My only reason for this is that I feel like the wheel will be more prone to rim out when I hit a bump and the feeling that it is a sign of the pressure being too low. But the other day, I was on the tail of a rider whose back tire was considerably more deformed than mine. He was a very strong rider, so I thought I may need to do more experimenting on tire pressure. Can you share how you decided on the tire pressure that works best for you?

Thanks.