Raison d'etre for STI

[Matt O'Toole]

"kapers" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> I wonder if anyone here remembers Suntour Command Shifters??? I had a set
on
> my old Roberts for 4 seasons.... I recall an ad from back then stating
that
> some team manager for a US team loved them because he could outfit an
entire
> team for the price of one set of DA Sti's...... Ah, the good old days.

Yup, those were great. I think that design could have been developed further, perhaps into something
better than STI/Ergo.

> There seems to be a myth circulating around that Barcon's are unsafe
because
> you can accidently trigger them with your knees..... That may have contributed (a little) to their
> falling out of favour. (except, why are
they
> still spec'd on quite a few Touring bikes???? seems like a miss-shift
would
> be more of a concern to someone with 100lbs of gear split 60/40 on front
and
> rear racks going down a lengthy grade.....than a racer with lightning fast reflexes.... hmmm).

Bicycling journalists were always scraping the bottom of the barrel for something to write about,
then as now.

Matt O.

 

[Paul Kopit]

For reasons in addition cycling I have exceptionally strong legs. Those that ride with me will
attest to that and the fact that I rarely lose the drag race at the traffic light. I'm a masher. The
only knee injury I ever had was starting from a stop on the bicycle. I guess I really wasn't pushing
straight down. I'm cautious on starts. Also, on the tandem starting in big gear inches is more
difficult.

What I gear down to may be what others cruise in.

On Fri, 10 Jan 2003 20:47:56 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>Oops! I think I detect a trucker who runs from lowest low through 18 gears to get going. Because
>the human body is an inverse of torque and speed of a bicycle, starting in the cruising gear poses
>no extra effort and is faster than shifting through gears. You'll notice that standing start track
>events are all done in one gear, even though gearing has been tried and is permitted be that 1000m
>or farther.
>
>On the other hand, I realize that there are people who dislike pressing hard on the pedals and
>always try to keep their cadence over
>100. For them there is probably no other way.

 

[Matt O'Toole]

<[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...

> It is amazing how the bicycle weight aficionados ignore the weight of these levers and
> extra cable.

I don't think the weight difference is as much as people assume. Last I looked, brifters were only a
couple of ounces heavier than plain brake levers from the same group. I don't know what 2-3 extra
feet of cable/housing weighs, but I doubt it's all that much either.

Matt O.

 

[The Pomeranian]

[email protected] wrote:
>

> I have no doubts about the advantages of STI but am not convinced it is necessary at the cost.

If the dearth of sales of DTs and bar-ends, but yet strong sales of the _higher cost_, _less
durable_, and _heavier_ brifters hasn't convinced you by now, then it is fair to say you cannot be
convinced. "Necessary" is a poorly valued term. It is "necessary" to have only one gear to head on
down the road, so what is "necessary" regarding extra gears is wholly a judgement call. People
participate in leisure activities because they want to, not because they are "necessary." Is it
"necessary" to go on a nice bike ride this weekend?

Incidentally, I don't use brifters, and never have. My own individual opinion that they aren't
"worth it" doesn't really matter in the larger market, and the decision for me to forgo them was
complicated by other issues too. I believe people when they say they really like brifters and the
extra cost is worth it to them. There are only weak reasons for assuming they don't really know
"what is good for themselves." Casting off the marketplace's favor of brifters due to "hype
marketing" is one of the weak reasons.

> It is amazing how the bicycle weight aficionados ignore the weight of these levers and
> extra cable.

The weight differential is easily known, and most riders with a bit of experience know there is a
penalty, if not the precise amount. I don't see how you can claim they "ignore" the weight. I see
them clearly making a value judgement that differs from your's and mine.

If you think your value judgement is simply not sold well by the marketeers, then maybe run an
experiment and line up bikes with brifters along side bikes that have DTs, all other things equal
except the natural cost differential and no selling "advice" offered. See which bikes sell better.
What do you think will happen? If the brifter bikes sell better, then there is your "necessary"
answer to the cost versus advantage question.

You can give your reasons why you don't think brifters are "necessary," and they might be decent
reasons. But in the end, most folks have apparently decided the reasons aren't strong enough to
forgo brifters. I presume people are able to formulate adaquate arguments for/against particular
shifting methodologies all by themselves, because once the multi-speed concept is accepted, shifting
is a given and not conceptually difficult in the most basic sense. It isn't as complicated as, say,
an analysis of how a wheel actually does what it does, and how the constraints of wheel design might
be intelligently balanced. For that, most laypeople would need help from a specialist.

 

[Jay Beattie]

"Benjamin Lewis" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Matt O'Toole wrote:
>
> >
> > <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> >
> >> It is amazing how the bicycle weight aficionados ignore the weight of these levers and extra
> >> cable.
> >
> > I don't think the weight difference is as much as people assume. Last I looked, brifters were
> > only a couple of ounces heavier than plain brake levers from the same group. I don't know what
> > 2-3 extra feet of cable/housing weighs, but I doubt it's all that much either.
>
> A couple of ounces is a lot to the sort of people who start drilling holes in things to make them
> lighter.

I will suffer the additional weight for the benefit of being able to shift while climbing out of the
saddle. I rode and raced with down tube friction shifters for twenty years and do not miss them one
bit and do not feel that I am less of man because I use STI, wobbly pulley wheels or any of that
other STI stuff that Jobst laughs at. STI kicks ass on any POS Campy set-up I owned in the bad old
days. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[Timothy J. Lee]

In article <[email protected]>, Matt O'Toole <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>"Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
>news:[email protected]...
>> I've used down tube levers (friction & indexed) for over twenty years and have had quite enough
>> of them!
>
>Me too.

Why are bar end shifters so uncommon?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is
provided with this message.

 

[Benjamin Lewis]

Timothy J. Lee wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Matt O'Toole
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> I've used down tube levers (friction & indexed) for over twenty years and have had quite enough
>>> of them!
>>
>> Me too.
>
> Why are bar end shifters so uncommon?

I wonder that myself. Perhaps people are polarized towards either retrogrouchiness (friction DTs) or
techno-gee-whizzery (brifteurs). I think they're a great balance between simplicity and convenience.
I wish they were more popular, since then the price would probably go way down. I may not need
Dura-Ace shifters, but I didn't have a choice.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent. -- Walt Kelly

 

[John Rees]

On 16 Jan 2003, Michael Doleman wrote:

>"Steven L. Sheffield" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>news:<BA4B36F0.20122%[email protected]>...
>> in article [email protected], Michael Doleman at
>> [email protected] wrote on 01/15/2003 03:49 PM:
>>
>>
>> > Plus, the levers are NOT very durable and certainly not serviceable.
>>
>>
>> Campagnolo Ergo levers are very durable, and are very definitely serviceable (and upgradable from
>> 8 to 9 to 10).
>
>I tend to agree about Ergo, they are fairly durable. That part of the comment was directed more
>squarely at STI, which I've seen premature failures in on several occasions. Shimano's design is
>simply inferior; the entire 'guts' of the shifting unit is exposed to the elements every time you
>brake, which is quite silly. Campy simply put more thought into their design and got it right.
>
>I maintain that both types of lever are serviceable only in the same sense that your VCR is
>serviceable. Yes, they can be fixed given enough time and the right spare parts, but the parts may
>cost you half as much as a new unit, and unless you plan to do the work yourself, your local bike
>shop will charge you the other half in labor. I know a few bike shops, in fact, that won't even
>touch them, they just recommend a new lever.
>
>Case in point: two friends of mine returned recently from a 4000K tour through Europe, on which
>they used STI-equipped bikes, Ultegra and D'ace. Both RH levers began behaving badly about
>mid-tour. They could not find a single shop anywhere in Europe that would offer to effect repairs;
>plenty of offers to outfit them with new units, though! They had me retro-fit their bikes with
>bar-end shifting, and are now happily making their way through New Zealand without any trouble.

I have been through a lot of brifter/shifters combos on my bikes. And I have to say that I have
never been happy with STI, Shimano especially. The best of all worlds solution for me is now Kelly
take offs and indexed DT shifters right next to the levers. My Cannondale has these now, with Campy
Non ergo brake levers and Dura Ace DT indexed 9 speed shifters. They shift flawlessly, are as simple
as it gets mechanically, and I can shift em standing up. This 'low' tech setup replaced a full
Mektronic group. My front is friction as I cannot imagine an index that's workable on a front narrow
cage derailleur.

I just recently pulled the Mektronic off my DeBernardi to, and have put DT shifters back where they
used to be. I forgot how easy it was to work on bikes until I've simplified my life this way. It
took a trip to Italy and 4 steamy hours in a hot garage fighting with the Mektronic for me to see
the light.

From: John B. Rees [email protected] http://www.jrees.net/

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
Benjamin Lewis <[email protected]> wrote:

> Timothy J. Lee wrote:
>
> > In article <[email protected]>, Matt O'Toole <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >>
> >> "Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
> >> news:[email protected]...
> >>> I've used down tube levers (friction & indexed) for over twenty years and have had quite
> >>> enough of them!
> >>
> >> Me too.
> >
> > Why are bar end shifters so uncommon?
>
> I wonder that myself. Perhaps people are polarized towards either retrogrouchiness (friction DTs)
> or techno-gee-whizzery (brifteurs). I think they're a great balance between simplicity and
> convenience. I wish they were more popular, since then the price would probably go way down. I may
> not need Dura-Ace shifters, but I didn't have a choice.

Hm. Barcons came out in the 70s, brifteurs in the early 90s. Did any great number of racers use
Barcons in the intervening 15-20 years?

One problem is that while brifteur units are pricey, that's a price for a combined brake and
shifter. When you look at the total cost of brake levers and separate shifters (DT or Barcon), the
cost difference isn't that much. This leaves you with a small cost for a noteworthy difference in
feel: even with barcons, you have to move your hands.

This leaves the reliability issue. It _may_ be important for you and other randonizers, but for
everyone else, the slight difference in reliability between barcons and brifteurs (especially
considering that in most cases, failure of either leaves you with a rideable but unshiftable
bicycle) is probably about the same as the safety difference between barcons and brifteurs.

I ride all-friction DTs, and as you know well, lust after brifteurs. The DTs work, but I do find
shifting a distraction in the heavy traffic I do most of my riding in, and both indexing and
brifting would probably help (though a Hyperglide freewheel made a shocking difference in the
precision and ease of shifting; I replaced another bicycle's worn freewheel with a twist-tooth
(Uniglide) unit, and the difference between shifting the two drivetrains, both with fresh chains and
cogs, was dramatic.

Also, as head of an organization devoted to style and training, I must speak in favour of brifteurs.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[Tom Keats]

In article <[email protected]>,
Tim McNamara <[email protected]> writes:

>> One hand, IME, is squirrelier than no hands, or both hands.
>
> That's normal. It's better to hit bumps no-handed than one-handed. One hand on the bars makes the
> bike harder to control- but generally not *much* harder. It's only unusual situations (or
> incredible ineptitude) that cause problems.

Anyhow, I've gained a refreshed appreciation for my MTB top mounts.

Except, now I see their ease-of-use as an unchallenging facileness, detracting from mastering the
Art of shifting.

They're _too_ easy.

Not that I want to go so far as gripping inner cables between my teeth, and shifting with
head-jerks

cheers, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD

remove NO_SPAM. from address to reply

 

[Timothy J. Lee]

In article <[email protected]>, Andy M-S
<[email protected]> wrote:
>If I could only have ONE set of shifters in the world, they would be DT friction paired with
>contemporary Shimano cog technology.

Don't Shimano down tube (and bar end) shifters have a friction setting on the rear shifter?

--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome. No warranty of any kind is
provided with this message.

 

[Jim H.]

"dmgatti" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> **** Durbin wrote:
> >
> > In another thread, Jobst Brandt postulated: "Fear of riding with only one hand on the bars got
> > us away from downtube shifters...."
> >
> > Is that why most folks went to STI or Ergo shifters? Safety was not a consideration in my
> > switch. I was just looking to be able to shift more quickly.
> >
> > I am wondering if other riders share Jobst's opinion on the reason that most riders switched to
> > STI or Ergo shifters.
> >
> > **** Durbin Tallahassee
>
> I had someone go into a long speech about how important STI ss for safety. They said that it's
> dangerous to ever have one hand off of the bars. And they argued that "you have to look down to
> shift" with downtube shifters. Hence, they thought that no bike should have downtube shifters for
> safety reasons. But when I mentioned that most bikes have a water bottle just below the downtube
> shifters and that involves looking down, taking one hand off of the bars, reaching down and
> tilting your head back to drink, they just looked at me with disgust and walked away.
>
> So I stuck with my downtube shifters!

Ok, but how about the timming? For example I haven't seen anybody drinking while launching an atack
or responding to someone else's.

 

[Peter Cole]

"Timothy J. Lee" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Matt O'Toole
> <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> >"Pete Biggs" <pLime{remove_fruit}@biggs.tc> wrote in message
> >news:[email protected]...
> >> I've used down tube levers (friction & indexed) for over twenty years and have had quite enough
> >> of them!
> >
> >Me too.
>
> Why are bar end shifters so uncommon?

Good question. I ride with bar-end shifters much of the time. Much of that riding is pace line in
groups where most ride with STI/Ergo brifters. I don't feel at any disadvantage, regardless of how
frequent the shifts are. With bar-end, indexed, shifting, it's an automatic reflex to slide the
right hand back and flick the lever with the pinkie. The right hand never leaves the bar, and the
left hand is still on the dominant (front) brake lever. They work well enough that I don't think
it's a performance issue.

The points others raised about the cost & weight considerations of combined
vs. separate functions (brake & shift) sound reasonable, but I like the flexibility of de-coupled
systems, myself. It's probably a "VHS/Beta" thing, a matter of timing and market perception. Too
bad really if bar-end goes extinct.

 

[Michael James A]

> I wonder if anyone here remembers Suntour Command Shifters???

MJA: I use Suntour on an old KHS, but I don't remember what model, and I have never had a problem
with them.

> There seems to be a myth circulating around that Barcon's are unsafe because you can accidently
> trigger them with your knees.....

MJA: "Trigger them with your knees!?!" If one can hit the downtube with his knees, he ain't going to
be having kids anytime soon.

 

[Tim McNamara]

In article <[email protected]>, The Pomeranian
<[email protected]> wrote:

> One racer of the '70s even told me back then that some racers didn't want BarCons because a
> competitor could easily reach over and shift your gears. I've never had this happen to me, even
> though I have used bar-ends in races.

I've seen it happen once, but on a cyclo-cross training group ride with a local pro. One prankster
snuck up behind a buddy at the bottom of a rise, reached over and shifted the poor sucker's gears
and then sprinted away laughing.

I have a hard time imagining someone doing this in a race, though.

 

[David L. Johnso]

On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 15:38:40 -0500, Michael James Anderson wrote:

>> I wonder if anyone here remembers Suntour Command Shifters???

I still have a set. I used them for about a year. Pretty good, but not the same as STI/Ergo unless
you could use their indexed rear, which was good only for 7-speed (and their own derailleurs,
probably).

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "It doesn't get any easier, you just go faster." --Greg LeMond _`\(,_ | (_)/ (_) |

 

[Matt O'Toole]

"David L. Johnson >" <David L. Johnson <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> Most people won't bother with this, since it is more expensive to change from what comes on the
> bike, which is STI, to this. You need new brake
levers as
> well as the shifters.

I suspect that most customers wouldn't buy a bike with DT shifters if STI were available, regardless
of cost. I remember just a few years ago there were a bunch of Klein Stage and Schwinn Le Tour bikes
with DT shifters being remaindered at Supergo for under $400. These were notable because it was the
first time I'd seen a new "road bike" so cheap in many years. They sat there for months, prices
gradually dropping. Meanwhile, otherwise similar Bianchis costing $250 more, but with STI, were gone
in days. . Matt O.

 

[Jobst Brandt]

David L. Johnson writes:

>> One racer of the '70s even told me back then that some racers didn't want BarCons because a
>> competitor could easily reach over and shift your gears.

> Yeah, right. This is a scene out of "Breaking Away", where the mean old Italian racer does this to
> our hero in the middle of a climb. But that was with downtube shifters. I'd say that trick would
> be much harder with bar-end shifters, since the guy would more likely be pushed over if you mess
> with his bars like that. Unless you want to crash the guy, which might actually get you in
> trouble, you wouldn't try it.

That's spurious jive. Dropping a rider into top gear was one of the first tricks we learned in the
early days of Campagnolo Gran Sport derailleurs and downtube friction levers. If anything, it was
some gnerd's hypothesis that what was easy on DT levers is even easier on BE's. So it's easy, but
it's not something one would do in competition. As You say, it's like sticking your pump on
someone's wheel. Stupid!

Jobst Brandt [email protected] Palo Alto CA

 

[B A R R Y B U R]

Tim McNamara wrote:
>
> I've seen it happen once, but on a cyclo-cross training group ride with a local pro. One prankster
> snuck up behind a buddy at the bottom of a rise, reached over and shifted the poor sucker's gears
> and then sprinted away laughing.

We do this all the time mountain biking. Sometimes, we point out something in the distance and grab
a brake lever. <G>

Payback's a *****, though.

I also cannot picture a racer doing this to another racer.

Barry

 

[Bfd]

[email protected] wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> I have no doubts about the advantages of STI but am not convinced it is necessary at the cost. It
> is amazing how the bicycle weight aficionados ignore the weight of these levers and extra cable.
>
In contrast, its been stated that Campagnolo Record Ergo levers, which has a list weight of 342g
supposedly weighs LESS than a set of standard dt shifter (which Campy no longer makes) AND brake
levers combined. Campy does offer a Record brake levers (carbon and without ergo mechanism) that has
a list weight of 210g and offers bar-end shifters listed at 163g, combined that's 373g...of course
bar-ends are not dt but then that's all Campy now offers....