re; How i spent

"Dot" <dot.h@#duh?att.net> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Tony S. said:

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
...

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BTW, an acquaintance of mine, someone I'd climbed
with, was recently tragically killed pursuing his
passion on Kilimanjaro and whether one is rich or
not makes zero difference (he wasn't, and neither
is any other world class climbers I know.) The
point being average people of average means aspire
to and do extraordinary things. And it has nothing
to do with your idiot opinion.

Interjecting into this debate -- with due respect, since I don't know

your

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friend or his motives, I have to agree with Donovan in part in that many

of

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the extreme adventure want-to-be explorers are indeed rich folks or at

least

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people with enough connections to finance their quests, meaning they

have

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rich supporters.

There was a show this week on public television about Denali in Alaska.

It

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was about why so many climbers die trying to climb the mountain. Well,
somewhat obviously, it's the altitude combined with being so far north,

but

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they were studying the environment's effects on a person's core

temperature.

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1000 people attempt Denali every year and there are always deaths. As I
watched it I thought that probably 900 of the 1000 people who attempt

Denali

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every year have no business being there and are rich dumbasses out for
bragging rights or wanting to be adventurers, some of whom die and many

of

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whom come away with severe frostbite.

But I wouldn't include them as true climbers. I'd call them
ecoadventurers or something along those lines. I would agree with Phil
about the average climber, backpacker, etc. (not ecoadventurer).
Climbers that I knew from school usually lived in tents in base camp
(say, Tetons) and just lived hand to mouth. If you don't have many
expenses, you don't need much income. Heck, one of the guys I knew

I accept what you say, they're not all rich folks. It's hard to evaluate
things from afar, indeed. For those real outdoors people who love it, and
who take the time to learn how to climb and survive, it's all good. I'll use
a well known example, Amundsen and Scott, the race to the pole. Amundsen
first learned everything he could about what worked best for the various
aspects of the expedition. He did it in a very smart, well-tesed way. Scott,
and I'm not doubting his amount courage here, did it in a completely dumbass
way, and that makes his courage border on stupidity. The people trying to
climb Denali without proper experience don't belong there and are risking
the lives of rescuers, not just their own. So whether it's 900 of 1000 or
600 of 1000 that truely don't belong there, I don't know. My own cousin
attempted Denali and almost died, and I'm the first to say he was a dumbass
for trying it without the proper experience.

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bicycled around the world (maybe 30 yr ago, obviously using boats when
needed), giving guest talks and working as he went to raise money, then
wrote a book (The Long Ride). One of my former techs (not rich) became
the first documented woman to solo Denali the year after she worked for
me (there was a case many years before but there were many, many
questions as to whether the earlier one happeneed). Her general
employment at the time was guiding - Denali (usually working for a
guiding service) and elsewhere on her own or with husband. No doubt she
took up some of the 900 that maybe didn't belong there. Some of my local
friends who have climbed Denali were probably well off (both husband and
wife worked) while others were below average income. But they definitely
had jobs with limited vacation time. Of course, some of those I know
now, just work part time or for non-profits or whatever - just enough to
pay the bills while they live life to the fullest.

I obviously can't judge your friends who climbed Denali. I guess the point I
was making is that to me what motivates people is the most important, and
jumping into something way beyond your experience is an egotistical dumbass,
or deliberately suicidal, thing to do. Your guide friend obviously had the
experience.

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Some adventurers (not ecoadventurers) may be well off and have good
connections. But there's some who just have interesting backgrounds /
aspirations that either do it hand-to-mouth or can get funding.

I agree, I don't really have a bone to pick with any of these people who
really love it. I've always enjoyed reading about adventurers, climbers and
such. For example, I didn't stop at reading "into thin air", I also read 2
other accounts of the same events.

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And in modern society, there's no doubt many well-off middle-age crisis
folks that are doing these various adventures and maybe retired early.
And some may be knowledgeable climbers or whatever but got trapped
behind a desk.

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There's a full spectrum of motives for people to do extreme things. For
those who truly love it, they would do it and not brag about it, and

would

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know how to do it without undue risk.

agreed.

I judge things somewhat randomly. For

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example, I think it's very cool that they have the iditarod race as I

think

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it's a real epic and it keeps a history of the place alive.

Were you aware that the Iditarod sleddog race goes essentially a
completely different route from the Serum run route, that it supposedly
commemorates?

Actually, I suspected that, but didn't know exactly. I still think it's
cool.

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However, I

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dislike what I consider the publicity minded stunts that Dean K. enjoys
doing. It could be argued in his case that he's doing it for charity,

but

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something tells me it's really more part of his career publicity grand

plan

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than charity.

I'm not gonna get into this nonsense on pretending to know what goes
through runners' minds or bashing other runners, but if you take the
time to read about some of the other runners, like some you have praised
in posts to this group, you will find they are not as perfect as you
seem to imply (some that you have praised do things that I detest).

Right, nobody really knows what motivates runners or anyone, but to me
that's exactly what matters. You just have to go with your impressions.
Someone who writes books and gives interviews is fair game to be evaluated
on their public expressions. I don't think anybody is perfect, but I'm
curious, who did I praise that did things you detest and why?

-Tony

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But I respect them all as runners. And they all do things that can be
misinterpreted.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

"Black Metal Martha" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tony S. said:

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
...

Quoted message said:

BTW, an acquaintance of mine, someone I'd climbed
with, was recently tragically killed pursuing his
passion on Kilimanjaro and whether one is rich or
not makes zero difference (he wasn't, and neither
is any other world class climbers I know.) The
point being average people of average means aspire
to and do extraordinary things. And it has nothing
to do with your idiot opinion.

Interjecting into this debate -- with due respect, since I don't know

your

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

friend or his motives, I have to agree with Donovan in part in that many

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the extreme adventure want-to-be explorers are indeed rich folks or at

least

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

people with enough connections to finance their quests, meaning they

have

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rich supporters.

There was a show this week on public television about Denali in Alaska.

It

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

was about why so many climbers die trying to climb the mountain. Well,
somewhat obviously, it's the altitude combined with being so far north,

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

they were studying the environment's effects on a person's core

temperature.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

1000 people attempt Denali every year and there are always deaths. As I
watched it I thought that probably 900 of the 1000 people who attempt

Denali

Quoted message said:

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every year have no business being there and are rich dumbasses out for
bragging rights or wanting to be adventurers, some of whom die and many

of

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whom come away with severe frostbite.

Intersting subject on Denali. My father was a mountaineer long before,
and I mean loonnggg before it was trendy. He climbed Mt. Shasta and Mt.
Raineer, but decided not to climb Denali because he had two small girls
(me being one of them) at home. He wasn't going risk his life and the
chance that he'd leave us fatherless.

Sounds like an intelligent decison. It's hard to separate mountaineers from
adventurers from ego-aventurers (ahem, eco-) from the stunt pullers from the
epic racers from the simple ultra runners. I guess my point about Denali was
about the inexperiened people who go up there to bag it and brag, but as Dot
pointed out, many experiened climbers also climb it, who aren't all rich. I
was rash, and don't know how the spectrum of motives breaks down. It sounds
like your dad loved climbing, pure and simple.

-Tony

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He used to say Denali is tougher much of the time to climb than Everest
because of the weather, from what he'd read and talked to with other
climbers.

Since then, He's been to Alaska traveling many times and has been to
Everest Base Camp.

He's now 84 years old and is in perfect health for someone of his
advanced years.

I've done some wall and rock climbing a few years ago, though I'd
really like to climb Shasta maybe next year because Dad did it. : )

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Martha

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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No, it doesn't imply that at all. At worst, it implies that ultra
runners are
(1) white, (2) rich, and (3) have too much time on their hands. I
admit that
this is a stereotype and really only applies to a certain fringe
element of
ultra runners.

For the sake of discussion and to tone down the heat let's just address
the above statement and specifically ultra runners in the US. I agree
with (1). (2) is partially true but not the way most think. When people
submit their Bio's to the Big ultra list they do provide educational
background. I would say that about 90-95% are professionals with at
least a bachelors degree, many masters, and a pile of PhDs. One could
assume in general that being better educated, one would likely have
better jobs and a few dollars in their pockets - most likely middle to
upper middle class. Rich is an exaggeration unless compared to the
homeless person sleeping on a park bench. (3) Too much time - I have no
idea what too much time means. Maybe it's back to a education, a better
jobs and more vacation to do these things.

Back to (1). Why are all the ultra crazies white? Maybe Dan,
Trailrunner and Phil can help but in the ultra races that I do in the
NE there are at best 5 blacks total in a race of 300. In the 50k I did
the other day of the 71 there were zero. My point, there are so few
blacks and why all the whacko's are white. An interesting question
might be, why are there so few? If we were talking about golf, it's a
good old boy network of white racists. OTOH, I know of no overt or
covert effort to keep blacks from running any race at any distance.

I have no idea why there are so few in the ultra world but I'd bet if we
did have proportionally more we would also black whacko's which would be
dubbed rich and have too much time on their hands.

-DF

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You keep blabbering that you could easily win these trail

races -- so many of us are wondering if you will ever back up those
words.
__

some i could win, some i could medal..within my AG...I've told you the
ones I sense I could win...and some I could place?...this Skunk Cabbage
Classic Half-Marathon in Itacha in April....yeah...I think so. I even
look at events like the Lake Placid Half-Marathon...doubt I could place
in my AG...but I would be a top 20 finisher over all.....for sure.
Look...I am just being honest with how the landscape looks away from
NYC...and that's thin on competition relative to our norm. You gotta
remember...I am used to taking 160th place overall......25th in my age
group, etc...[censored] like that. Hell last September I ran a 1 mile race
@ 5:23 and did not make the top 20 in my age group. when i did
6:09/mile over 5 in a 5 mile race I did not crack the top 20 in my age
group. i could find 100 races in upstate NY where my 5 mile time would
win my age group. i'll be 43 next month and i will have a stronger
'06 than '05, once i get healthy and back on my wheels. the only
thing upstate that looks compelling is the boilermaker....but i am
afraid to enter it because i would hate to have pendejo kick my ass.

scan results at
http://www.runningintheusa.com

Tony S. said:

There's a full spectrum of motives for people to do extreme things. For
those who truly love it, they would do it and not brag about it, and would
know how to do it without undue risk. I judge things somewhat randomly. For
example, I think it's very cool that they have the iditarod race as I think
it's a real epic and it keeps a history of the place alive. However, I
dislike what I consider the publicity minded stunts that Dean K. enjoys
doing. It could be argued in his case that he's doing it for charity, but
something tells me it's really more part of his career publicity grand plan
than charity.

This all started with Donovan responding that ultra trailblazers were
ALL rich, white men. Nothing could be farther from the truth and just
goes to show his ignorance on this subject. And to use DK as the typical
representation of this group is no better than me using Tyrell Owens or
Ron Artest as the typical representation of the black athlete. I
personally know a few folks who are into speed records on trails and
they are your typical cross section of America. Included are a doctor
who has been doing this type of thing since he could walk as he started
by backpacking with his dad and his dad still provides logistical
support for him now. A girl who works at a health food store and spends
every dime she makes (which ain't much) on her running adventures and a
50+ YO carpenter who also just happens to be black.

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
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Donovan Rebbechi said:

No, it doesn't imply that at all. At worst, it implies that ultra runners are
(1) white, (2) rich, and (3) have too much time on their hands. I admit that
this is a stereotype and really only applies to a certain fringe element of
ultra runners.

And what fringe element would that be?

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

Tony S. said:

"Black Metal Martha" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Intersting subject on Denali. My father was a mountaineer long before,
and I mean loonnggg before it was trendy. He climbed Mt. Shasta and Mt.
Raineer, but decided not to climb Denali because he had two small girls
(me being one of them) at home. He wasn't going risk his life and the
chance that he'd leave us fatherless.

Sounds like an intelligent decison. It's hard to separate mountaineers from
adventurers from ego-aventurers (ahem, eco-) from the stunt pullers from the
epic racers from the simple ultra runners. I guess my point about Denali was
about the inexperiened people who go up there to bag it and brag, but as Dot
pointed out, many experiened climbers also climb it, who aren't all rich. I
was rash, and don't know how the spectrum of motives breaks down. It sounds
like your dad loved climbing, pure and simple.

-Tony

He's proof positive of healthy living, he's always been in great shape,
eaten right, hardly drank alcohol and never smoked. : )

Martha

Doug Freese said:

Back to (1). Why are all the ultra crazies white?

You've got to get out of your neck of the woods more Doug. While I agree
in general about the number of blacks, there are other colors besides
white and black. Here in NorCal, Hispanics, Asians of all nationalities
(Chinese, Vietnamese, Philippine, Korean, etc), Indians/Pakistanis not
to mention a smattering middle easterners, are all well represented at
our ultras. As matter of fact, in my running group, as a white guy, I'm
usually in the minority on our group runs as white guys are outnumbered
both by gender and ethnicity!

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

"The Trailrunner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doug Freese said:

Back to (1). Why are all the ultra crazies white?

You've got to get out of your neck of the woods more Doug.

I agree, send tickets. 🙂

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While I agree in general about the number of blacks, there are other
colors besides white and black. Here in NorCal, Hispanics, Asians of
all nationalities (Chinese, Vietnamese, Philippine, Korean, etc),
Indians/Pakistanis not to mention a smattering middle easterners, are
all well represented at our ultras. As matter of fact, in my running
group, as a white guy, I'm usually in the minority on our group runs
as white guys are outnumbered both by gender and ethnicity!

I'm glad to see the better representation on the west coast. I would
guess we have at best 3% at a race if we include all the minority
groups.

_DF

Tony S. said:

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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...

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BTW, an acquaintance of mine, someone I'd climbed
with, was recently tragically killed pursuing his
passion on Kilimanjaro and whether one is rich or
not makes zero difference (he wasn't, and neither
is any other world class climbers I know.) The
point being average people of average means aspire
to and do extraordinary things. And it has nothing
to do with your idiot opinion.

Interjecting into this debate -- with due respect, since I don't know your
friend or his motives, I have to agree with Donovan in part in that many of
the extreme adventure want-to-be explorers are indeed rich folks or at least
people with enough connections to finance their quests, meaning they have
rich supporters.

Well, you're wrong there. It doesn't in fact cost
a lot of money these days to take a trip to
Kilimanjaro or Chile's Aconcagua. Lots of peeple
I know climb these summits and all are working
stiffs...So, finanaces aside, the real issue is
whether some (because it is so cheap) _should_
be attempting these. My acquaintance died in a
freak unforseeable accident, but was a qualified
climber. Many people though are tourists (unskilled
and out of shape) who sign up on commercial "treks"
and get into trouble. Another friend of mine often
gets hired to lead such treks in the Himalaya and
always has people who aren't prepared for the
physical requirements.

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There was a show this week on public television about Denali in Alaska. It
was about why so many climbers die trying to climb the mountain. Well,
somewhat obviously, it's the altitude combined with being so far north, but
they were studying the environment's effects on a person's core temperature.
1000 people attempt Denali every year and there are always deaths. As I
watched it I thought that probably 900 of the 1000 people who attempt Denali
every year have no business being there and are rich dumbasses out for
bragging rights or wanting to be adventurers, some of whom die and many of
whom come away with severe frostbite.

Doesn't take a lot of money there either (i.e., average
working stiff could afford it.) Maybe you're right a lot
of climbers may not be fully prepared. Still it ain't
quite that simple. 1) Everyone reacts to altitude and
cold differently. High altitude physiology varies
person to person. 2) Denali's weather is the main
factor. It has some of the worst mountain weather on
earth and is why so few actually summit and also why
people can die there. Storms can roll in unexpectedly
and trap climbers in their tents for days creating
survival situations. Like with an exhausted marathoner
who pushes too hard to get to the finish line for a PB,
some climbers will try for the summit instead of turning
back.

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There's a full spectrum of motives for people to do extreme things. For
those who truly love it, they would do it and not brag about it, and would
know how to do it without undue risk.

Isn't that what we're talking about here? That's
most people -- trailrunners, climbers, even explorers
like Amundsen. Putting all trailrunners, climbers, or
whoever in a "subset" of "rich white men with too much
time on their hands imitating other rich white men with
too much time on their hands in pursuit of glory" is
silly. My whole point is people do these things because
they enjoy it and most are just average working stiffs.
Dean K is the exception, not the rule. That's why I
earlier mentioned that most extreme trailrunners I've
met aren't Dean K's and don't get their names in the
newspapers...

I judge things somewhat randomly. For

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example, I think it's very cool that they have the iditarod race as I think
it's a real epic and it keeps a history of the place alive. However, I
dislike what I consider the publicity minded stunts that Dean K. enjoys
doing. It could be argued in his case that he's doing it for charity, but
something tells me it's really more part of his career publicity grand plan
than charity.

-Tony

Dot said:

Tony S. said:

"Tom Phillips" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

BTW, an acquaintance of mine, someone I'd climbed
with, was recently tragically killed pursuing his
passion on Kilimanjaro and whether one is rich or
not makes zero difference (he wasn't, and neither
is any other world class climbers I know.) The
point being average people of average means aspire
to and do extraordinary things. And it has nothing
to do with your idiot opinion.

Interjecting into this debate -- with due respect, since I don't know your
friend or his motives, I have to agree with Donovan in part in that many of
the extreme adventure want-to-be explorers are indeed rich folks or at least
people with enough connections to finance their quests, meaning they have
rich supporters.

There was a show this week on public television about Denali in Alaska. It
was about why so many climbers die trying to climb the mountain. Well,
somewhat obviously, it's the altitude combined with being so far north, but
they were studying the environment's effects on a person's core temperature.
1000 people attempt Denali every year and there are always deaths. As I
watched it I thought that probably 900 of the 1000 people who attempt Denali
every year have no business being there and are rich dumbasses out for
bragging rights or wanting to be adventurers, some of whom die and many of
whom come away with severe frostbite.

But I wouldn't include them as true climbers. I'd call them
ecoadventurers or something along those lines. I would agree with Phil
about the average climber, backpacker, etc. (not ecoadventurer).
Climbers that I knew from school usually lived in tents in base camp
(say, Tetons) and just lived hand to mouth. If you don't have many
expenses, you don't need much income. Heck, one of the guys I knew
bicycled around the world (maybe 30 yr ago, obviously using boats when
needed), giving guest talks and working as he went to raise money, then
wrote a book (The Long Ride). One of my former techs (not rich) became
the first documented woman to solo Denali the year after she worked for
me (there was a case many years before but there were many, many
questions as to whether the earlier one happeneed). Her general
employment at the time was guiding - Denali (usually working for a
guiding service) and elsewhere on her own or with husband. No doubt she
took up some of the 900 that maybe didn't belong there. Some of my local
friends who have climbed Denali were probably well off (both husband and
wife worked) while others were below average income. But they definitely
had jobs with limited vacation time. Of course, some of those I know
now, just work part time or for non-profits or whatever - just enough to
pay the bills while they live life to the fullest.

Some adventurers (not ecoadventurers) may be well off and have good
connections. But there's some who just have interesting backgrounds /
aspirations that either do it hand-to-mouth or can get funding.

And in modern society, there's no doubt many well-off middle-age crisis
folks that are doing these various adventures and maybe retired early.
And some may be knowledgeable climbers or whatever but got trapped
behind a desk.

I'd say there are many more middle age crisis folks
going out and running marathons. I guide novice
students into the backcountry every summer, taking
some up their first mountain ever. It's far safer I
think than some 55 year old who took up running at
53 and then does a marathon because it's the thing
to do 🙂

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You've got to get out of your neck of the woods more Doug.

__

....ahh..that would be the red neck...neck of the woods......which is
ironic since he has a very negroidian name, "doug".

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You've got to get out of your neck of the woods more Doug.

__

...ahh..that would be the red neck...neck of the woods......which is
ironic since he has a very negroidian name, "doug".

Lance, you are behind the times.
It ain't fall no more. So, it's not red neck of the woods.
It's winter. Snow. White neck of the woods.

Tom Phillips said:

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I'd say there are many more middle age crisis folks
going out and running marathons. I guide novice
students into the backcountry every summer, taking
some up their first mountain ever. It's far safer I
think than some 55 year old who took up running at
53 and then does a marathon because it's the thing
to do 🙂

Or, just maybe they didn't get into being fit until an older age. I was
a recreational distance runner in the 80s, but then my maladies caught
up with me. I'm in my mid 40s, not a spring chicken, but am now taking
better care of myself than ever before in my life. Am I running and
want to run my first marathon in 20 years because it's trendy? No.

Don't take anything away from someone who is making attempts to better
themselves. : )

Martha

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Tom Phillips said:

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I'd say you're the one making insults, calling people
like Hillary and Amundsen "Rich white men with too much
time on their hands imitating other rich white men with
too much time on their hands in pursuit of glory..."

No, not unless you're saying that Dean Karnazes is like
Amundsen and Hillary. If *that's* what you're saying, I'd
say you're just delusional.

It sounds like a shot at Hillary and Amundsen and
and all like them for what they accomplished. I
think it's pretty clear I am saying they are _not_
like DK, but the opposite...

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Hillary and Amundsen are both examples we could all
learn lessons from, and deserve respect, which in fact
requires humility...

First, this is illogical, because it follows that one who
does respect them has humility, but the converse doesn't
follow.

Second, getting down to *my* opinion, there are a lot of
reasons that Hillary deserves respect, but climbing big
mountains is not one of primary ones in my opinion.

So, I guess the crew of Apollo 11 doesn't deserve
respect either? All they did was be the first to
land on the moon. Big deal. Never mind they easily
could have ended up eternally orbiting the rock,
a permanently frozen testament to our innate human
need to explore and discover the unknown.

The fact is, when Hillary and Norgay summited
Everest they might as well have gone to the moon.
It was that remote then. If something happened
(and they knew they could easily die) there was
no help. Unlike today no rescue would have been
possible.

So yeah, I think honest explorers like Hillary,
Amundsen, Shackleton etc, as opposed to self serving
record setters seeking media play, deserve respect
for what they accomplished. My point is most
trailrunners seem to be in the opposite category
than a DK...

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Tom Phillips said:

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Quoted message said:

How is it insulting someone to call them white and to suggest that they have
a relatively priveliged background ? I'm white and my background is somewhat
priveliged. I don't find this observation insulting.

A rationalization...

Note: no rebuttal ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> arrogance, not the men who risked life and limb.
>
> You likely couldn't get above Base Camp let alone
> to Everest's summit.

No idea, no interest in finding out.

Proves my point...you have zero business mouthing
off about what you have zero knowledge of...

No, it doesn't prove anything. The "you couldn't get above base camp" is
not relevant to the debate, it's a cheap-shot on your part.

Like I said, you know not about climbing Everest
and thus can't credibly judge those who do...

snip...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BTW, an acquaintance of mine, someone I'd climbed
with, was recently tragically killed pursuing his
passion on Kilimanjaro and whether one is rich or
not makes zero difference (he wasn't, and neither
is any other world class climbers I know.) The
point being average people of average means aspire
to and do extraordinary things.

Well, whatever toots your flute. I'm personally not impressed by it
and thus don't seek to emulate it. There are other things that impress
me and that I'd like to emulate instead. Different strokes for
different folks. Perhaps *you're* the one who lacks humility in your
insistence that I adopt *your* values.

And just what extraordinary things have you
done or accomplished? running wise or otherwise?
I don't mean for self inflation, but internal
satisfaction and enjoyment?

I can tell you one thing, my acquaintance was a
man of humility. You're the one who brought up this
denigrating business of labeling and judging
other people who pursue their passions...

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Doug Freese said:

Out-group? In-group?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outgroup_%28sociology%29

Quoted message said:

The original crack implies that all whites are rich and have time on
their hands

No, it doesn't imply that at all. At worst, it implies that ultra runners are
(1) white, (2) rich, and (3) have too much time on their hands. I admit that
this is a stereotype and really only applies to a certain fringe element of
ultra runners. But it is certainly not comparable to invoking negative
stereotypes of a vulnerable out-group.

And of course your original commnets didn't qualify
this so in retrospect you can now claim it implies
whatever you want it to imply..

The fact is the way you said it was inclusive not only
of ultras but of any white men (runners, climbers,
explorers...) who set out to accomplish something
regardless of their true motivation.

The Trailrunner said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

No, it doesn't imply that at all. At worst, it implies that ultra runners are
(1) white, (2) rich, and (3) have too much time on their hands. I admit that
this is a stereotype and really only applies to a certain fringe element of
ultra runners.

And what fringe element would that be?

The majority white fringe who aren't black, poor,
don't work, and have nothing else to do but run,
climb useless mountains, and do stupid self serving
stuunts like ski across Antarctica and walk on the moon...

Black Metal Martha said:

Tom Phillips said:

Quoted message said:

>

I'd say there are many more middle age crisis folks
going out and running marathons. I guide novice
students into the backcountry every summer, taking
some up their first mountain ever. It's far safer I
think than some 55 year old who took up running at
53 and then does a marathon because it's the thing
to do 🙂

Or, just maybe they didn't get into being fit until an older age. I was
a recreational distance runner in the 80s, but then my maladies caught
up with me. I'm in my mid 40s, not a spring chicken, but am now taking
better care of myself than ever before in my life. Am I running and
want to run my first marathon in 20 years because it's trendy? No.

Don't take anything away from someone who is making attempts to better
themselves. : )

Sure but what I mean is you need to get the
proper training and expericen before luanching
headlong into something. Clearly you have a
running background and so understand this,
what it takes, and when to pull back.

Tom Phillips said:

Black Metal Martha said:

Tom Phillips said:

> >

Or, just maybe they didn't get into being fit until an older age. I was
a recreational distance runner in the 80s, but then my maladies caught
up with me. I'm in my mid 40s, not a spring chicken, but am now taking
better care of myself than ever before in my life. Am I running and
want to run my first marathon in 20 years because it's trendy? No.

Don't take anything away from someone who is making attempts to better
themselves. : )

Sure but what I mean is you need to get the
proper training and expericen before luanching
headlong into something. Clearly you have a
running background and so understand this,
what it takes, and when to pull back.

Let's put it this way, I understand more now than I did 20 years ago. :
)

Martha