Re: Scheme to ban cyclists from even more public roads.



Conor wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Brimstone
> says...
>> Conor wrote:
>>> In article <[email protected]>, Brimstone says...
>>>
>>>> Errr, no. Transport operators would import cheap labour.
>>>>
>>> Where from? Certainly not Eastern Europe as they're having to import
>>> Indian and Chinese drivers because of the shortage there.
>>>
>>> So where are all these non-existent drivers going to come from then?
>>
>> India and China?
>>
> And how long do you think it takes for them to get their licences?

It doesn't matter, as long as they can drive to the required standard in the
UK and Europe, i.e. pass a UK test.
 
Doug wrote:

> Maybe I shouldn't have included congestion because it is a good
> deterrent to frivolous motoring and only a mild problem for me as a
> cyclist. On the other hand, it can cause problems for people dying in
> ambulances and in fires but I wouldn't expect motorists to care about
> that.

Why not?
 
Steve Firth wrote:
> Conor <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>> In article <[email protected]>, says...
>>
>>>> The "buy local" thing from supermarkets is a bad joke. They may
>>>> well source locally, but I suspect it still involves the same
>>>> round trip via a distribution centre, as Conor who works in
>>>> logistics, has stated.
>>>
>>> Precisely. The supermarkets pay lip service to the buy local thing,
>>> but actually increase the food miles as they do it. They're locked
>>> into their own model.
>>>
>> ROFLMAO. Do you honestly think there's enough food producing
>> capability within a 50 mile radius of London to satisfy demand in
>> that area?
>>
>> And you're the one who wants to buy neatly packaged food that looks
>> like it does in the pictures, not have to pluck your own chickens or
>> butcher your own meat.
>>
>> Sourcing locally can only be sustainable if the population was spread
>> more evenly over the UK but whilst a very large minority is crammed
>> into one corner, you're not going to reduce the mileage.
>>
>> It's interesting to see that there's not actually any food processing
>> factories (at least non I've come across in 15 years of transporting
>> food) in London but plenty of cold stores. I wonder why that is.
>
> There was a TV program a couple of years ago in which a chef tried to
> open a restaurant sourcing "local food" in London. It was a terrible
> bad joke that saw things like driving to Maldon (Essex) for fish and
> salt, and heading out into Berkshire for eggs and vegetables.
>
> The best he could get within the M25, not even London was a few veg.
> off someone's allotment.
>
> Even after all the mucking about, when he opened the restaurant, his
> 'local' ingredients included rice, butter, olive oil, mediterranean
> herbs, eastern spices and fruit from Spain, Morocco, France, Italy and
> the USA.
>
> I swear, having seen Duhg in action here, that self-delusion is a
> necessary attribute for anyone wanting to live inside the M25.

Perhaps the sentiment in the line about people who want power should be the
last ones to get it should also apply to people who want to live in large
cities.
 
"Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, says...
>
>> > The "buy local" thing from supermarkets is a bad joke. They may well
>> > source locally, but I suspect it still involves the same round trip via
>> > a distribution centre, as Conor who works in logistics, has stated.
>>
>> Precisely. The supermarkets pay lip service to the buy local thing, but
>> actually increase the food miles as they do it. They're locked into their
>> own model.
>>
> ROFLMAO. Do you honestly think there's enough food producing capability
> within a 50 mile radius of London to satisfy demand in that area?

There's certainly enough food producing capability where _I_ live (East
Anglia) to satisfy demand without shipping it all via the outskirts of
London.


> And you're the one who wants to buy neatly packaged food that looks
> like it does in the pictures, not have to pluck your own chickens or
> butcher your own meat.

My butcher does all that for me. It's really good. I can tell him exactly
what I want and he cuts it that way. And his meat is cheaper and of a higher
quality than the supermarket, who want to charge me extra to 'taste the
difference' of properly hung meat.

> Sourcing locally can only be sustainable if the population was spread
> more evenly over the UK but whilst a very large minority is crammed
> into one corner, you're not going to reduce the mileage.
>
> It's interesting to see that there's not actually any food processing
> factories (at least non I've come across in 15 years of transporting
> food) in London but plenty of cold stores. I wonder why that is.
>
If you make your living transporting food into London then good luck to you.
But a large amount of what you do haul to Enfield or wherever, then has to
come out again.
 
"Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Roger Thorpe
> says...
>> Conor wrote:
>>
>> > In article <[email protected]>, Roger Thorpe
>> > says...
>> >
>> >
>> >>Even a conservative
>> >>aspiration to make public transport in cities as good as that in London
>> >>would make life better for many.
>> >
>> >
>> > So what about the other 40% of the UK who don't live in cities?
>> >
>> Is that a reason why PT improvement in cities shouldn't happen?
>> would you have been happier if I had written "cities and towns"?
>> The rural transport problem is a more difficult issue, and it's hard to
>> see how that can be solved without subsidy or regulation. But then,
>> being a red I don't mind either of those.
>> Roger Thorpe
>>
> I wasn't saying it shouldn't but asking what about 40% of the
> population which tends to be overlook in grand designing?
>
Pardon me for wondering, but elsewhere in this thread you appear to be
championing a city-centric approach for food distribution, but here you're
saying 'don't forget the shires'?
 
On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 11:14:47 -0000, Conor
<[email protected]>
was popularly supposed to have said:

> In article <[email protected]>, Roger Thorpe
> says...
>
>> This is true today, and I think that most people would agree that we
>> should try to move freight a bit less, or at least in a more rational
>> way. How about we treble truck driver's wages and let the market work
>> for us! Or should we increase the duty on fuel.....
>> Roger Thorpe
>>
> How do you move freight a bit less? It travels from where it's made to
> where it's bought.
>
> The only thing increasing wages or fuel will do is increase the shop
> prices. That ups inflation, the BoE up interest rates to counter the
> inflation which then in turn lead to massive house reposessions/
> bankruptcies, people have less money to spend and you're into a full
> blown recession.
>
> Nice to see you have such a strong grasp of finance.

There are a couple of other factors that aren't being discussed here,
which tie into this. Firstly, the amount of freight haulage needed is
dependent on the population; the general UK population is going up
mostly through immigration so perhaps we ought to be reducing the
immigration rate a little?

Secondly, there's the other Thing Which Must Not Be Mentioned.

Tax.

Government taxes contribute to inflation by stealing money off people
which would otherwise go into the economy; generally speaking taxation
over about 1/3 of GDP provides no net benefit for the population. Let's
try making Government live within its means for a change, eh?


--
Dan Holdsworth PhD [email protected]
By caffeine alone I set my mind in motion, By the beans of Java
do thoughts acquire speed, hands acquire shaking, the shaking
becomes a warning, By caffeine alone do I set my mind in motion
 
Budstaff <budstaffdotusegroupatbtinternetdotcom> wrote:

> There's certainly enough food producing capability where _I_ live (East
> Anglia) to satisfy demand without shipping it all via the outskirts of
> London.

OTOH if it wasn't all being shipped to London then where you live would
be even more of an employment black hole than it is at present.

And your freedom of thought would probably go as far as which pretty
cow's **** you got to stare at all day as it dragged your single-furrow
plough through the mire.
 
Doug wrote:
> On 13 Feb, 10:58, Conor <[email protected]> wrote:
>> In article <a214bd39-a1bf-45de-b296-
>> [email protected]>, Doug says...
>>
>>> On 12 Feb, 23:52, "Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> Doug wrote:
>>>>> On 12 Feb, 10:18, NM <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> On 12 Feb, 08:35, Doug <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>>> I take it you are one of those closet motorists who also masquerade
>>>>>>> as a cyclist on NGs and elsewhere.
>>>>>> Can I take it you were a closet motorist when you rescued the dead
>>>>>> bird?
>>>>>> Were you a closet motorist when you dumped your landrover in
>>>>>> Cornwall?
>>>>>> Are you a closet motorist when your children turn up in their cars to
>>>>>> ferry you around?
>>>>>> Do you keep your licence in case you need to drive one of your
>>>>>> childrens cars.
>>>>>> What is a closet motorist anyway? I assume you mean one who tries to
>>>>>> hide his participation in this activity and that you to a tee.
>>>>> As I have pointed out many times, I do not own a car, I do not drive
>>>>> cars nor do I travel in other people's cars therefore I cannot be a
>>>>> closet motorist.
>>>> But your whole lifestyle, and the one that you would inflict on everyone
>>>> else, is inextricably bound up with cars.
>>> Only to the extent that I have to put up with 24/7 nose-to-tail free
>>> street garaging, the toxic pollution from cars, massive congestion
>>> caused by too many cars, the environmental destruction due to
>>> perpetual road building and not least the danger caused by a majority
>>> of motorists deliberately breaking the law by exceeding speed limits.
>> Why does congestion affect you Doug? You don't drive. How can cars be
>> breaking the speed limits if there's massive congestion Doug?
>>
> What a strange question! You must surely know how this works by now.
> Drivers speed between congested bottlenecks and through rat runs.
>
> Maybe I shouldn't have included congestion because it is a good
> deterrent to frivolous motoring and only a mild problem for me as a
> cyclist. On the other hand, it can cause problems for people dying in
> ambulances and in fires but I wouldn't expect motorists to care about
> that.
>
> --
> World Carfree Network
> http://www.worldcarfree.net/
> Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.
>
What, not even the drivers of the ambulances and fire engines? They are
motorists too, you know.

--
Moving things in still pictures!
 
In article <[email protected]>, says...

> There's certainly enough food producing capability where _I_ live (East
> Anglia) to satisfy demand without shipping it all via the outskirts of
> London.
>
There is where I live too but if there was only enough grown in East
Anglia to satisfy the locals, what would people do for work? After all,
food production is the main sector in that area.


> > It's interesting to see that there's not actually any food processing
> > factories (at least non I've come across in 15 years of transporting
> > food) in London but plenty of cold stores. I wonder why that is.
> >
> If you make your living transporting food into London then good luck to you.
> But a large amount of what you do haul to Enfield or wherever, then has to
> come out again.
>
No, really? I wondered how it got to the supermarkets.


--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
In article <[email protected]>, says...

> I take it that the YOU that you're addressing is your concept of the
> stereotypical 'no concerns other than the price' British food consumer.

Yes.


--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Brimstone says...

> > And how long do you think it takes for them to get their licences?
>
> It doesn't matter, as long as they can drive to the required standard in the
> UK and Europe, i.e. pass a UK test.
>
It does because they've first got to pass a test for a car, then Cat C
and then Cat C+E by which time, they'll have spent well in excess of
£5000 on lessons/tests and taken 2-3 months to do with no income. Where
does the £10,000 it'd cost in total come from?



--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
In article <[email protected]>, says...

> > I wasn't saying it shouldn't but asking what about 40% of the
> > population which tends to be overlook in grand designing?
> >
> Pardon me for wondering, but elsewhere in this thread you appear to be
> championing a city-centric approach for food distribution, but here you're
> saying 'don't forget the shires'?
>
Do I? I don't champion it, I accept that it's a status quo that's not
going to change.


--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
In article <slrnfr681f.lpu.dan1701usenet@spc1-burn1-3-0-
cust209.bagu.broadband.ntl.com>, Dan Holdsworth says...

> Government taxes contribute to inflation by stealing money off people
> which would otherwise go into the economy; generally speaking taxation
> over about 1/3 of GDP provides no net benefit for the population. Let's
> try making Government live within its means for a change, eh?
>
Not a problem. We can cuts £10-£20 billions off the tax burden by
ditching the NHS and the welfare state. Let people pay for their own
healthcare and unemployment/retirement income provision.


--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
Conor (Conor <[email protected]>) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

>> > And how long do you think it takes for them to get their licences?

>> It doesn't matter, as long as they can drive to the required standard
>> in the UK and Europe, i.e. pass a UK test.

> It does because they've first got to pass a test for a car, then Cat C
> and then Cat C+E by which time, they'll have spent well in excess of
> £5000 on lessons/tests and taken 2-3 months to do with no income. Where
> does the £10,000 it'd cost in total come from?

The haulier would pay, knowing he could recoup it in no time at all?
 
Conor wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Brimstone
> says...
>
>>> And how long do you think it takes for them to get their licences?
>>
>> It doesn't matter, as long as they can drive to the required
>> standard in the UK and Europe, i.e. pass a UK test.
>>
> It does because they've first got to pass a test for a car, then Cat C
> and then Cat C+E by which time, they'll have spent well in excess of
> £5000 on lessons/tests and taken 2-3 months to do with no income.
> Where does the £10,000 it'd cost in total come from?

It's only comparatively recently that the requirement to pass a car and the
other tests before getting a Class 1/C+E was introduced. I'm quite sure that
if there was a need then TPTB would revert to the previous situation.
 
"Steve Firth" <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1ic9d8t.4bjnkg1ad9r10N%%steve%@malloc.co.uk...
> Budstaff <budstaffdotusegroupatbtinternetdotcom> wrote:
>
>> There's certainly enough food producing capability where _I_ live (East
>> Anglia) to satisfy demand without shipping it all via the outskirts of
>> London.
>
> OTOH if it wasn't all being shipped to London then where you live would
> be even more of an employment black hole than it is at present.
>
> And your freedom of thought would probably go as far as which pretty
> cow's **** you got to stare at all day as it dragged your single-furrow
> plough through the mire.

Give me strength! I thought it was George Dubya and the U S of A that were
the guardians of the free world, not the Road Haulage Association!

Of _course_ the food needs to be shipped to London, otherwise the townies
would starve, but the stuff that's eaten locally doesn't need to joy-ride.
 
"Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, says...
>
>> > I wasn't saying it shouldn't but asking what about 40% of the
>> > population which tends to be overlook in grand designing?
>> >
>> Pardon me for wondering, but elsewhere in this thread you appear to be
>> championing a city-centric approach for food distribution, but here
>> you're
>> saying 'don't forget the shires'?
>>
> Do I? I don't champion it, I accept that it's a status quo that's not
> going to change.
>
As in can't change, shouldn't change or you don't want to change?
 
Budstaff wrote:
> "Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> In article <[email protected]>, says...
>>
>>>> I wasn't saying it shouldn't but asking what about 40% of the
>>>> population which tends to be overlook in grand designing?
>>>>
>>> Pardon me for wondering, but elsewhere in this thread you appear to
>>> be championing a city-centric approach for food distribution, but
>>> here you're
>>> saying 'don't forget the shires'?
>>>
>> Do I? I don't champion it, I accept that it's a status quo that's not
>> going to change.
>>
> As in can't change, shouldn't change or you don't want to change?

He has a vested interest.
 
"Brimstone" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:eek:[email protected]...
> Budstaff wrote:
>> "Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>> In article <[email protected]>, says...
>>>
>>>>> I wasn't saying it shouldn't but asking what about 40% of the
>>>>> population which tends to be overlook in grand designing?
>>>>>
>>>> Pardon me for wondering, but elsewhere in this thread you appear to
>>>> be championing a city-centric approach for food distribution, but
>>>> here you're
>>>> saying 'don't forget the shires'?
>>>>
>>> Do I? I don't champion it, I accept that it's a status quo that's not
>>> going to change.
>>>
>> As in can't change, shouldn't change or you don't want to change?
>
> He has a vested interest.
I know. All food miles are good food miles ;-)
 
Budstaff <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Steve Firth" <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1ic9d8t.4bjnkg1ad9r10N%%steve%@malloc.co.uk...
> > Budstaff <budstaffdotusegroupatbtinternetdotcom> wrote:
> >
> >> There's certainly enough food producing capability where _I_ live (East
> >> Anglia) to satisfy demand without shipping it all via the outskirts of
> >> London.
> >
> > OTOH if it wasn't all being shipped to London then where you live would
> > be even more of an employment black hole than it is at present.
> >
> > And your freedom of thought would probably go as far as which pretty
> > cow's **** you got to stare at all day as it dragged your single-furrow
> > plough through the mire.
>
> Give me strength! I thought it was George Dubya and the U S of A that were
> the guardians of the free world, not the Road Haulage Association!
>
> Of _course_ the food needs to be shipped to London, otherwise the townies
> would starve, but the stuff that's eaten locally doesn't need to joy-ride.

Give me strength! So you're saying that in addition to the existing
distribution network, there needs to another (and another and another)
handling separate trips made by mostly empty small vans plying numerous
unclassified roads in order to take deliveries to hamlets of three
people and Colin the donkey.
 
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