Re: Scheme to ban cyclists from even more public roads.



"Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Clive George says...
>> "Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>>
>> > The huge increase is due to a pallet of books now having each book
>> > shipped individually to each customers house instead of that pallet
>> > being shipped to a shop.
>> >
>> > So, for example, instead of a pallet consisting of 500 books travelling
>> > 200 miles to the store, giving a total mileage per book of 0.4 miles,
>> > you've 500 books each potentially travelling 200+ miles per book,
>> > giving you a mileage equivalent for that same pallet of 100,000 miles.
>>
>> That's quite amusing maths.
>>
> It's actually correct.

Ok, you didn't take the hint. It's _complete_ bollocks.

You're not comparing like with like.

>> Does each book get its own lorry to deliver it to the customer, with
>> nothing
>> else on it?
>>
> Irrelevent. I was quoting the mileage it's done and that's relevent to
> the increase in the amount of road transport increasing due to online
> retailers.

No, it's precisely the point.

Your mileage equivalent would only be accurate if it were one lorry per
book. But it isn't - the individual books share a lorry with other items, in
the same way as they do if they're going to the shop.

Say we have those 500 books going from the publisher to a town 200 miles
away. So, in the one instance we've got the big box with them all in, put
into a lorry and driven to the shop. In the other instance, the books get
wrapped up, then they all go into one lorry and driven to the sorting office
at the town - coz the post office aren't completely thick, and they try and
not waste their resources. Oh look, same number of lorry miles.

The only difference is the final leg is done by the customer in one
instance, or the postman in the other. And the postman will be doing that
leg anyway. Oh look, it seems that the delivery option ends up with fewer
vehicle miles.

Now real life is a bit more complicated than that - there's packing, and the
individual parcels will end up being transported less efficiently (and
faster...). But the effect is nothing like the factor of 500 that you're
pretending it is.

clive
 
Conor wrote:
> And the tofu-shop brigade are the majority of the shopping public are
> they?

You said, and I quote, "A large part of the reasons foods are processed
overseas is because they can't recruit people to work for the abysmal
wages that the low prices YOU demand would require."

In the face of evidence that this is not in general true - I demand no
such thing, and clearly nor do the customers of the local 24 hour
grocer, the patrons of restaurants, or anyone who buys their lunch from
Pret a Manger instead of taking sandwiches to work - instead of
admitting you were wrong, you now want to shift the goalposts and talk
about "majorities".

In principle I could care less, but honestly, not very much less.


-dan
 
"Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Clive George says...
>
>> Does each book get its own lorry to deliver it to the customer, with
>> nothing
>> else on it?
>>
> If there's only one delivery to that area, yes.
>
> I've taken an artic to a wholesaler that supplies PC World from
> Wakefield Europort and picked up no more than a handful of boxes to
> take to Smethwick.

So the shop delivery chain is inefficient - no great surprise there. Do you
think the people Amazon use for deliveries are that bad? IME they use the
post office, who aren't - that book won't be the only delivery to the area
by any means.

(OTOH other couriers are not terribly efficient, I'll grant you that).

clive
 
"Doug" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:f4f2afdf-d266-426b-968e-ec423762c038@z17g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
On 11 Feb, 11:13, "Brian Robertson" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "Doug" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
> Instead of making existing roads better for cyclists this scheme will
> increase the presumption that cyclists have no right to hold up faster
> traffic by using formerly PUBLIC roads.
>
> " City's two-wheel transformation
>
> · Livingstone maps out 12 bicycle 'motorways'
> · £400m plan includes suburban networks..."
>
> "...Edmund King, president of the AA, said:
>
> "I think separating out cyclists can only be good for everyone..."
>
> Good for motorists he means.
>
> More:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/feb/09/transport.world1
>
> --
> World Carfree Networkhttp://www.worldcarfree.net/
> Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.
>
> Doug, PLEASE stop writing about cycling. Stick to things like animal right
> and the like. We cyclists have an uphill struggle against all sorts of
> things at the best of times. Having you 'on our side' could tip the
> balance
> so much that the whole activity might be outlawed and every cycle lane
> turned into a car park. You are to reasonable causes what MRSA is to good
> hospital treatment.
>
Sorry and all that but as a long-suffering cyclist, who has been
physically injured twice by drivers while never injuring a motorist
myself, though often tempted to do so, my input is unavoidable and I
am dedicated anyway to countering the widespread pro-car propaganda on
newsgroups in which motorists try to rubbish cyclists at every
conceivable opportunity.

I take it you are one of those closet motorists who also masquerade as
a cyclist on NGs and elsewhere.

--
World Carfree Network
http://www.worldcarfree.net/
Help for your car-addicted friends in the U.K.

I drive a bus, Doug, not a car. Hate the things.

Brian.
 
In article <[email protected]>, says...
> Conor wrote:
> > And the tofu-shop brigade are the majority of the shopping public are
> > they?
>
> You said, and I quote, "A large part of the reasons foods are processed
> overseas is because they can't recruit people to work for the abysmal
> wages that the low prices YOU demand would require."
>
> In the face of evidence that this is not in general true - I demand no
> such thing, and clearly nor do the customers of the local 24 hour
> grocer, the patrons of restaurants, or anyone who buys their lunch from
> Pret a Manger instead of taking sandwiches to work - instead of
> admitting you were wrong, you now want to shift the goalposts and talk
> about "majorities".
>
You as in the general population. Tell that to a family who can barely
make ends meet.


--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Clive George says...
> "Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>, Clive George says...
> >
> >> Does each book get its own lorry to deliver it to the customer, with
> >> nothing
> >> else on it?
> >>
> > If there's only one delivery to that area, yes.
> >
> > I've taken an artic to a wholesaler that supplies PC World from
> > Wakefield Europort and picked up no more than a handful of boxes to
> > take to Smethwick.
>
> So the shop delivery chain is inefficient - no great surprise there. Do you
> think the people Amazon use for deliveries are that bad? IME they use the
> post office, who aren't - that book won't be the only delivery to the area
> by any means.
>
> (OTOH other couriers are not terribly efficient, I'll grant you that).

I WORKED FOR A COMPANY THAT HAD THE AMAZON CONTRACT YOU DUMB ****. They
don't just use the Post Office.

--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
"Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, Clive George says...
>> "Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > In article <[email protected]>, Clive George says...
>> >
>> >> Does each book get its own lorry to deliver it to the customer, with
>> >> nothing
>> >> else on it?
>> >>
>> > If there's only one delivery to that area, yes.
>> >
>> > I've taken an artic to a wholesaler that supplies PC World from
>> > Wakefield Europort and picked up no more than a handful of boxes to
>> > take to Smethwick.
>>
>> So the shop delivery chain is inefficient - no great surprise there. Do
>> you
>> think the people Amazon use for deliveries are that bad? IME they use the
>> post office, who aren't - that book won't be the only delivery to the
>> area
>> by any means.
>>
>> (OTOH other couriers are not terribly efficient, I'll grant you that).
>
> I WORKED FOR A COMPANY THAT HAD THE AMAZON CONTRACT YOU DUMB ****. They
> don't just use the Post Office.

Now now, no need to get all shouty.

Just because you're in the logistics business, doesn't mean you can do sums.
And your original ones were bollocks.

You do know what IME means, don't you? www.acronymfinder.conm may help. "In
my experience". When I get a parcel from amazon, it comes with the rest of
the post.

Now, I'm happy to accept that there's an increase in miles for the
deliveries, due to the different points at which it all gets aggregated. But
it's nothing like your original claim of a 500-fold increase.

FWIW I had relatives in the book trade. They didn't get arctics delivering
books - the volumes are nothing like big enough for that. The books came in
parcels, same way as you'd get a parcel at home.

clive
 
Conor wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, John Rowland
> says...
>> Conor wrote:
>>>
>>> It's interesting to see that there's not actually any food
>>> processing factories (at least non I've come across in 15 years of
>>> transporting food) in London but plenty of cold stores. I wonder
>>> why that is.
>>
>> There are numerous food processing places in Park Royal, such as the
>> McVities factory in Waxlow Rd.
>> There are several breweries in London.
>> The (recently closed) Pura factory in Orchard Place E14.
>
>> Katie's Kitchen in Forward Drive, Wealdstone (the staff all wear
>> hairnets, which I doubt they would do if it was just a cold store).
>
> They do.
>
>> Coca Cola in South Ruislip is a huge place - is that not a factory?
>>
> As I said, not that I'd come across. Are you sure that all of these
> are actually processors and not just packers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McVitie's says the Park Royal plant is a
factory.

Katsouris is another Park Royal one...
http://www.bakkavor.com/about/our-locations/uk/nr/116 lists three sites
employing 2500 in Park Royal and nothing else in the country.

Hazlewood foods in Park Royal...
http://www.worksopguardian.co.uk/news/Seven-years-for-sandwich-blackmail.903369.jp

http://www.applegate.co.uk/company/10/07/761.htm describes Katies Kitchen as
"manufacturing"

The Coca Cola one is probably a bottling plant.
 
PeterT wrote:

> On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 10:01:11 +0000, Roger Thorpe
> <[email protected]> wrote:

>>(Sorry if the emphasis looks like shouting)... but now maybe Peter T can
>>give us the benefit of that witty reply the he's been saving up for us.
>>
>>Roger Thorpe
>
>
> What makes you think I've been saving a witty reply for anyone, let
> alone you?
>

Optimism.

Roger Thorpe
 
On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 00:49:02 -0000, Conor <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Clive George says...
>> "Conor" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>> news:[email protected]...
>> > In article <[email protected]>, Clive George says...
>> >
>> >> Does each book get its own lorry to deliver it to the customer, with
>> >> nothing
>> >> else on it?
>> >>
>> > If there's only one delivery to that area, yes.
>> >
>> > I've taken an artic to a wholesaler that supplies PC World from
>> > Wakefield Europort and picked up no more than a handful of boxes to
>> > take to Smethwick.
>>
>> So the shop delivery chain is inefficient - no great surprise there. Do you
>> think the people Amazon use for deliveries are that bad? IME they use the
>> post office, who aren't - that book won't be the only delivery to the area
>> by any means.
>>
>> (OTOH other couriers are not terribly efficient, I'll grant you that).
>
> I WORKED FOR A COMPANY THAT HAD THE AMAZON CONTRACT YOU DUMB ****. They
> don't just use the Post Office.

Not true - if you mean the Royal Mail. Amazon use a variety of delivery
services - one of those is Royal Mail, I got a book just this week
that was sent via Royal Mail. Others include DHL Express (although
rarely - at least the parcel had some DHL Express tape on it) with the
last leg fulfilled by the postman, and Home Delivery Network. I have
even known them to use Parcelforce. The main carrier is Home Delivery
Network - but it isn't an exclusive contract by any means.

--
Andy Leighton => [email protected]
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials"
- Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_
 
Brian Robertson ("Brian Robertson" <[email protected]>)
gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying:

> Sorry and all that but as a long-suffering cyclist, who has been
> physically injured twice by drivers while never injuring a motorist
> myself

More by luck than fortune, since you have at least one drink-drive
conviction.

Were you also ****** when injured whilst cycling?
 
Conor wrote:
> You as in the general population. Tell that to a family who can barely
> make ends meet.

A family who can barely make ends meet, by definition, do not have very
much money.
Which would make it kind of stupid for an economy to target them
exclusively as a market: you're not going to make them spend more if
they don't have more to spend.

Returning to the original point, I think there is plenty of market for
businesses who wish to produce food in the UK at UK wages for UK
consumption - simply don't try to sell it through Somerfield.
Fairtrade, ethical coffee, free range eggs and green energy are all
examples where people have been induced to pay "extra" for what would
usually considered basic provisions: whatever is stopping "local food"
from proceeding down this well-worn route is more likely to be a tragic
lack of business sense among its producers than "oh my god, we need to
be able to produce a white plastic loaf for 29p or we can't /compete/"

Find a niche, exploit the niche, grow the niche. It's not rocket
science, it's Marketing 101.


-dan
 
In article <[email protected]>, Clive George says...

> Here's a suggestion - stop being so angry : you might find people listen to
> you if you write calmly rather than just ranting on.

I'm only angry becausde I have countless cossers like you telling me
how my job is done when they've never done it.

>
> You just gave an answer : 4 times the miles, on a pretty suboptimal route.
> Now is that anything like the factor of 500 you made up? No. Your original
> post wasn't very accurate, was it?

<walks off shaking head>


--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
In article <[email protected]>, John Rowland
says...
> Conor wrote:
> > In article <[email protected]>, John Rowland
> > says...
> >> Conor wrote:
> >>>
> >>> It's interesting to see that there's not actually any food
> >>> processing factories (at least non I've come across in 15 years of
> >>> transporting food) in London but plenty of cold stores. I wonder
> >>> why that is.
> >>
> >> There are numerous food processing places in Park Royal, such as the
> >> McVities factory in Waxlow Rd.
> >> There are several breweries in London.
> >> The (recently closed) Pura factory in Orchard Place E14.
> >
> >> Katie's Kitchen in Forward Drive, Wealdstone (the staff all wear
> >> hairnets, which I doubt they would do if it was just a cold store).
> >
> > They do.
> >
> >> Coca Cola in South Ruislip is a huge place - is that not a factory?
> >>
> > As I said, not that I'd come across. Are you sure that all of these
> > are actually processors and not just packers?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McVitie's says the Park Royal plant is a
> factory.
>
> Katsouris is another Park Royal one...
> http://www.bakkavor.com/about/our-locations/uk/nr/116 lists three sites
> employing 2500 in Park Royal and nothing else in the country.
>
> Hazlewood foods in Park Royal...
> http://www.worksopguardian.co.uk/news/Seven-years-for-sandwich-blackmail.903369.jp
>
You might find that may no longer exist as they were taken over by
Greencore Foods who took over quitre a few then promptly closed them.


--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Andy Leighton says...

> > I WORKED FOR A COMPANY THAT HAD THE AMAZON CONTRACT YOU DUMB ****. They
> > don't just use the Post Office.
>
> Not true - if you mean the Royal Mail. Amazon use a variety of delivery
> services - one of those is Royal Mail, I got a book just this week
> that was sent via Royal Mail. Others include DHL Express (although
> rarely - at least the parcel had some DHL Express tape on it) with the
> last leg fulfilled by the postman, and Home Delivery Network. I have
> even known them to use Parcelforce. The main carrier is Home Delivery
> Network - but it isn't an exclusive contract by any means.
>
Which bit of the past tense being used did you not understand?

Regardless of who is doing what, it works the same. ALL parcel
companies in the UK follow the same model.


--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
In article <[email protected]>, says...
> Conor wrote:
> > You as in the general population. Tell that to a family who can barely
> > make ends meet.
>
> A family who can barely make ends meet, by definition, do not have very
> much money.

Which is a majority of the UK.

> Which would make it kind of stupid for an economy to target them
> exclusively as a market: you're not going to make them spend more if
> they don't have more to spend.
>
Tell that to Tesco.

> Returning to the original point, I think there is plenty of market for
> businesses who wish to produce food in the UK at UK wages for UK
> consumption - simply don't try to sell it through Somerfield.

> Fairtrade, ethical coffee, free range eggs and green energy are all
> examples where people have been induced to pay "extra" for what would
> usually considered basic provisions:

And you'll find the number buying those to be very low.


--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
Conor (Conor <[email protected]>) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

> Which bit of the past tense being used did you not understand?

The bit which explains how come 'erself has had several Amazon deliveries
via the Postie over the last few days alone.
 
Conor (Conor <[email protected]>) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying:

>> > You as in the general population. Tell that to a family who can
>> > barely make ends meet.

>> A family who can barely make ends meet, by definition, do not have very
>> much money.

> Which is a majority of the UK.

No, it isn't. Don't judge the whole country by Hull et sa environs.

The vast majority of people in the UK have money available above and
beyond the necessities.
 
In article <[email protected]>, Andy Leighton wrote:
>On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 00:49:02 -0000, Conor <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> They don't just use the Post Office.
>
>Not true - if you mean the Royal Mail. Amazon use a variety of delivery
>services - one of those is Royal Mail

Isn't that what he just claimed?
 
In article <[email protected]>, Adrian says...
> Conor (Conor <[email protected]>) gurgled happily, sounding much
> like they were saying:
>
> >> > You as in the general population. Tell that to a family who can
> >> > barely make ends meet.
>
> >> A family who can barely make ends meet, by definition, do not have very
> >> much money.
>
> > Which is a majority of the UK.
>
> No, it isn't. Don't judge the whole country by Hull et sa environs.
>
> The vast majority of people in the UK have money available above and
> beyond the necessities.
>
REally? So the vast majority of people in the UK can pay off their
loans, overdrafts and credit/store cards today from the money they have
in the bank?

I don't think so.

From the Credit Action website for January.

Britain's personal debt is increasing by ~ £1 million every 5 minutes.
Total consumer credit lending to individuals in November 2007 was
£223bn. This has increased 5.7% in the last 12 months.

Total lending in November 2007 grew by £8.9bn. Secured lending grew by
£7.8bn in the month. Consumer credit lending grew by £1.1bn.

Average household debt in the UK is ~ £8,956 (excluding mortgages).
This figure increases to £20,830 if the average is based on the number
of households who actually have some form of unsecured loan.

Today in the UK:

* Consumers will borrow an additional £330m today
* The average household debt will increase by over £13.25 today
* 77 properties will be repossessed today
* 305 people today will be declared insolvent or bankrupt
* 2,750 County Court Judgements (CCJs) issued
* Bank and building societies will hand out £1bn in mortgages today
* Citizen Advice Bureaus will deal with 6,600 debt problems today
* The average car will cost £15.42 to run today
* More than 7,716 loan repayments are going unpaid every day

--
Conor

As a Brit I'd like to thank the Americans for their help in the war
against terror because if they'd not funded the IRA for 30 years, we
wouldn't know how to deal with terrorists.
 
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