Reputation of cycling
- Thread starter L_I_R
- Start date
L_I_R said:
When i was racing at the amateur level n the 80's, there was some pretty prevalent use of amphetamines. I quit racing because I was trying to do it the old fashioned way, clean. I gave up racing and since have ridden for the enjoyment of it. When I was researching my newest novel about a doping scandal in the Tour de France, I interviewed over 50 active racers from all levels, from the junior level to collegiate to semi pro to professional. I began to see a pattern. Where winning was extremely important for the fame and the money, there was doping. Where racing was a chance to get some serious exercise with good friends, there was limited or no doping. Few outright admitted to doping, but when asked the others shrugged and gave the standard BS line; "Everyone does it". I agreed to never identify the names of my interviewees, and I will also not identify the locations where these guys live and race. These interviews changed the nature of the novel and I took a lot longer writing it because my whole impression of bike racing changed. I left behind all of my research on doping techniques and got inside the head of the main character in the book and the book is now more a reflection on what I saw in the eyes of those who were cheating; I saw bitterness, anger and hostility in spite of some fairly successful racing careers. When I watch professional cycling now, I assume many if not most of the peleton are doing something other than nutrition and training to enhance their performance. In many ways it has become like "professional" wrestling. I was warned early on before the interviews by a collegiate cyclist who I believe remains clean that what I was going to see was not pretty and he was right.
shawnrohrbach said:
Very good post and it seems that you have some insight on the true nature, which has more to do with the darker nature of a human than just scraping the surface as saying one is a cheat, which is bad in itself. I see a lot of arguments on forums and though I tend not to jump into the discussions amongst 98% who have never used drugs in this manner, do not know anyone who lives in that world, but yet speculate. All people have a darker nature. It is just that some go much deeper into that darker nature than others. Unfortunately I went pretty far into and if I can do anything at all to help counsel a person to the direction they are headed I will do my best even to the point of exposing myself in humiliation and have done so in a magazine article as well.
I have a place in my house where all my trophies are displayed. I call it the "wall of shame." Someone might ask, "if you are ashamed of them then why would you display them?" The wall is not is not in the most visible place in the house. It is the deepest darkest corner of the house, but not a closet. The dark corner reminds me of the darkest time in my life where I was so caught up in winning that I foresook rational thinking. In my testimony it reads just as you describe. Though I was winning I was not happy. I was a bitter, volitile person and had very few true friends. I lost a marriage. I risked going to jail. I had a contact that I purchased from that threatened my life and I had threatened the lives of some individuals. I lost old friends. I answered the door always with a handgun ready. I was always paranoid. Those who were around me were just like me. Some a little better and some a whole lot worse. I saw girls and one guy prostitute themselves for income so that they could train without having to hold a full time job. I saw friends go to federal prison for selling in order to win and to be in the lime light. I have some former associates that are dead either from prolonged drug use or suicide. I once struggled myself with suicide as a new user because I did not know how to cope with the depression once you come off the drugs.
It is not just about competing and drug use. It is about the dark nature of humans, which includes self promotion, which is a pride issue. You will typically find that these people that go further with the obsession to win probably had a self esteem issue in the beginning. As they win self esteem rises and they fall in love with the new attention. The more the attention is drawn to them the more they want it. The more they want it the further they are willing to go to get it. Imagine if a person is willing to prostitute themselves so that they can feed this desire how dark they become. I have been trying to counsel one such person for a number of years. I will not mention her name, but she is a current pro athlete. She does not have to do it as much as she used to because she now makes more money per opportunity because she is in higher demand. I have seen her cry for hours. She knows she is in a deep dark place, but I also know that she struggles to give up what she sees is "fame and fortune" and just blend into society and give up the popularity that she has gained.
Then there are those who do not actually take the drugs, but are like a parasite feeding on the popularity of the one the successful athlete. Most coaches, trainers and representatives are not like this, but some are willing to push an athlete deeper into this dark place because it benefits them personally. On the surface they may care, but deep down the darker nature is satisfied. The more popular and successful an athlete is the more demand for the coach or trainer. If one has multitude of world class wins they are able to advertise their services in magazines and do TV interviews and such. They can become commentators during events and so on so that they are also put into the lime light and finances are increased.
Then there are the organizers of the event and the audience. Many are not but some of them are the greatest of hypocrites. On one side they proclaim their innocence that they are doing all that they can to make the sport clean, but like the dark athlete and trainer they make a living off a sport and off of contraversial, cocky and highly successful athletes. The more hype of an ahtlete the greater attraction to the event. The audience is highly attacted to athletes who will break world record, who will stand out in competition, who have a personal story that can impact the hearts of the audience as if they overcome great obstacles in life. Whatever it takes to hype the event and attract the audience. So the hypocrisy is the organizer on one hand stating they do all they can do. They have found some scape goats for the season. "See look we have found some guilty ones." On the other hand they know that if a pro cyclist has nothing any more special to offer than the typical local crit competitor the audience will be not as great. The attraction cannot be hyped, which in turn means LESS MONEY for the organizer.
This goes along with the audience as well. They too want to see records broken otherwise they just soon stay at home and rake the yard or watch reruns of CSI Miami. So on one hand they want the hype, the stories of overcoming obstacles and the RISE to greatness. But they want world records broken in the cleanest of forms. That would be great if that can happen, but how do we know the purity of the ahtlete, the trainer, the organizer and all those surrounding the event.
The bottome line is that the darker nature (sinful nature) of humans is what drives all of this. Until that part is solved I highly doubt testing will work or penalties will work because I can promise you they will just look for another way around. I am not saying give up those two because it at least throws up an obstacle for the athlete to consider and many will not cross that line. I did a lot of things that were very bad, but even I had a line that I would not cross. However, someone once asked me if I trained for my health and I said that I only trained to win. That I cared nothing about my health and that I would die if it were necessary. That was not just a flipant comment. That was a comment that was true. So I guess my line was pretty far out there. Thank the Lord literally for intervening in my life and that now I see things completely different.
There I exposed things that I do not like to go back and expose, but if it were to help anyone I hope that it will. Now days when I get an opportunity to speak or counsel an athlete on an individual basis I get to at least plant seed of thought and sometimes I would like to think that my story will help someone else not go down the same road.
Felt : what can I say?
Your post is very inciteful because, as you say, you have been there in terms of using PED’s albeit in a different sport.
I’ve an anecdote.
I was trained by one of the really great riders that this country has produced. My coach was a man who had national titles by the spade load and was literally unbeatable on the amateur circuit. International opposition and domestic opposition could not beat this man in competition. He was so good that he was offered a professional contract and he “went to France” as we say here. He joined a particular team and immediately he was asked what type of gear (drugs) he used. He told his team mates that he never took anything, ever, to race. His team mates laughed and asked how he managed to win what he had won. He explained that he trained hard, ate well, did not indulge in excess etc. Again his team mates laughed saying “you won’t last 6 months in this game unless you use the gear (dope)”.
My coach ignored their views and continued on with his routine of resting/training/eating……………….The first few races he participated in he did well. He managed to get placed in several elite professional races which was unheard of for a neopro.
His team manager, knowing my coaches viewpoint about doping called him in to his office for a chat.
The manager explained that my coach could do so much better if he did dope and that he would, in all likelihood, be good enough to ride the Tour de France. Again, my coach had to justify why he would not go down the doping route. The manager of the team became irate. He explained that as far as he was concerned the team and it’s riders were a means to an end – the end being invited to ride a Tour de France, so that they could earn better money etc.
My coach stood his ground. He tried to convince the team manager that he was good enough to win a place on the team to ride the TDF. He also said that he would ride a TDF without having to dope. The team manager thanked him for the chat that they had. A week later, my coach received a letter from his team explaining that they were terminating his contract as they felt that he was not good enough to cycle as a professional.
The reason I tell this anecdote is because the pressure to perform in the sport not only comes from your team mates but also from your manager and your sponsor. The fact that other teams/riders are doping, in all probability, makes the pressure to dope even greater. That’s before you even get on the bike and race for 5+ hours per day.
My coach returned home to a very warm welcome from those members in the sport. For years he was asked about his brief professional career and he said that he came home because he was homesick. He was not prepared to tell the real story of what actually happened to him because he felt that this would betray the sport.
Your post is very inciteful because, as you say, you have been there in terms of using PED’s albeit in a different sport.
I’ve an anecdote.
I was trained by one of the really great riders that this country has produced. My coach was a man who had national titles by the spade load and was literally unbeatable on the amateur circuit. International opposition and domestic opposition could not beat this man in competition. He was so good that he was offered a professional contract and he “went to France” as we say here. He joined a particular team and immediately he was asked what type of gear (drugs) he used. He told his team mates that he never took anything, ever, to race. His team mates laughed and asked how he managed to win what he had won. He explained that he trained hard, ate well, did not indulge in excess etc. Again his team mates laughed saying “you won’t last 6 months in this game unless you use the gear (dope)”.
My coach ignored their views and continued on with his routine of resting/training/eating……………….The first few races he participated in he did well. He managed to get placed in several elite professional races which was unheard of for a neopro.
His team manager, knowing my coaches viewpoint about doping called him in to his office for a chat.
The manager explained that my coach could do so much better if he did dope and that he would, in all likelihood, be good enough to ride the Tour de France. Again, my coach had to justify why he would not go down the doping route. The manager of the team became irate. He explained that as far as he was concerned the team and it’s riders were a means to an end – the end being invited to ride a Tour de France, so that they could earn better money etc.
My coach stood his ground. He tried to convince the team manager that he was good enough to win a place on the team to ride the TDF. He also said that he would ride a TDF without having to dope. The team manager thanked him for the chat that they had. A week later, my coach received a letter from his team explaining that they were terminating his contract as they felt that he was not good enough to cycle as a professional.
The reason I tell this anecdote is because the pressure to perform in the sport not only comes from your team mates but also from your manager and your sponsor. The fact that other teams/riders are doping, in all probability, makes the pressure to dope even greater. That’s before you even get on the bike and race for 5+ hours per day.
My coach returned home to a very warm welcome from those members in the sport. For years he was asked about his brief professional career and he said that he came home because he was homesick. He was not prepared to tell the real story of what actually happened to him because he felt that this would betray the sport.
Lim, thanks for sharing and it is a good story to share because there are many unwilling to cross the line. It comes in varying degrees as well. In the same spirit, but not quite as deep as someone who actually does use PED's, are seen on multitudes of forums asking, "are there any supplements that will make me better?"
Perhaps those people will draw the line at just being curious and go no further, but as you say the pressure to use and to win goes really deep into the bad side of human nature. Those who would not be willing to use themselves, like in your example, are very willing to push or are in the position to put extreme pressure on someone else to take the risk. If one is not willing than there are plenty of other genetically gifted individuals who have a darker nature and are very willing to take the step. Some are more reluctant but the fame and fortune beckons their name and they cross the line. Later down the road shame and humiliation can be the possible payoff to that once reluctant person, but they went despite the reluctance. It is later when they are caught they think what happened to me, why am I here. The person that pressured them rarely faces the same shame.
It is talk like this that helps an athlete decide if that 12 dollar trophy is worth the price. Perhaps that 6 figure contract and not sitting in front of a computer like the rest of us was worth it for a while. Many do it and do not face the public shame, but many still face hardships by their own works even if they do not get caught.
Perhaps those people will draw the line at just being curious and go no further, but as you say the pressure to use and to win goes really deep into the bad side of human nature. Those who would not be willing to use themselves, like in your example, are very willing to push or are in the position to put extreme pressure on someone else to take the risk. If one is not willing than there are plenty of other genetically gifted individuals who have a darker nature and are very willing to take the step. Some are more reluctant but the fame and fortune beckons their name and they cross the line. Later down the road shame and humiliation can be the possible payoff to that once reluctant person, but they went despite the reluctance. It is later when they are caught they think what happened to me, why am I here. The person that pressured them rarely faces the same shame.
It is talk like this that helps an athlete decide if that 12 dollar trophy is worth the price. Perhaps that 6 figure contract and not sitting in front of a computer like the rest of us was worth it for a while. Many do it and do not face the public shame, but many still face hardships by their own works even if they do not get caught.
Felt_Rider said:
In the case that I cited, I was trained by that man for eight years and he insisted throughout that doping and anyone who did dope was ethically and morally wrong.
For him it was a matter of ethical principle and it was a matter of trying to safeguard a persons health.
Both great reasons, in themselves, not to go down the doping route.
However not everyone has the ethical/moral fibre to be able to withstand pressure and expectation – and they succumb to the duress of others. Even if people cannot be persuaded on the ethical/moral question of doping/cheating, the health reasons alone make the doping route highly dangerous in my view.
As you said, what happens when the “high” cannot be replaced?
Who will be there to pick up the pieces when the depression sets in? Certainly not the people who tried to persuade you to go down the doping route.
I can understand the attraction of wanting to be the best in a field.
I can understand the lure of wanting to get "the edge".
But the cost is indefinable in my view - and that risk is far too great.
As you said the fleeting feeling of success cannot last forever.
great post felt.
Felt and Limerick; thanks for the insightful if painful personal accounts. The truthfulness of your accounts is apparant and they both ring true to the interviews I had with more than 50 cyclists as part of my research. My hope is young cyclists will read your posts and perhaps even contact your through the forum and ask real questions before they decide to participate in any kind of performance enhancing program.
shawnrohrbach said:
Thanks shawn :
Got to put my cards on the table here.
Even if I had a bucket of EPO consumed, I still don't think I would ever be in contention with a professional!
Here is my testimony in an e-magazine earlier this year. The only problem was there were some editing liberties performed (to be expected). While 98% of the posted article is true some of it was tweaked a little from what I orginally wrote. My article begins on page 18 through page 20.
This is brilliant stuff guys thank you 
If I'm trying to some it up then,
From the early times say 1950-1998, doping was rife amongst cyclists of all levels, wether it was from amateurs trying to get themselves a cycling contract with a professional team or the greats trying to push themselves just that little bit further.
Then came operation puerto which seemed to spell the end for cycling as i saw it, how could the sport recover when so many big names were implicated.
However I feel that the sport is steadily reclaiming back some respect, yes there are athletes who continue to dope. But to me it seems this is soon becoming a minority, or am I being too hopeful considering I'm an outsider to the sport?
L_I_R
If I'm trying to some it up then,
From the early times say 1950-1998, doping was rife amongst cyclists of all levels, wether it was from amateurs trying to get themselves a cycling contract with a professional team or the greats trying to push themselves just that little bit further.
Then came operation puerto which seemed to spell the end for cycling as i saw it, how could the sport recover when so many big names were implicated.
However I feel that the sport is steadily reclaiming back some respect, yes there are athletes who continue to dope. But to me it seems this is soon becoming a minority, or am I being too hopeful considering I'm an outsider to the sport?
L_I_R
I think you have got to take in to account the very nature of the sport and what it entails.
The sport is probably the toughest endurance sport there is – and in many cases bodies are pushed to the absolute physical limit in pursuit of success at the very highest levels.
For example, one could ride Tour de France distance 3,000 miles in the 3 weeks, going at 15mph.
It may take you 200 hours to do so – but it can be done in three weeks without overtaxing the body too much.
Ramp up the speed to 25mph, for every single mile, the body then comes under enormous physical stress.
I have read quite a lot of books about the sport and the riders who have ridden in the game.
Robert Millar the great Scottish rider of the 1980/90’s said that some Tours de France were so tough that, in one year, it wasn’t until November that he had recovered from that years Tour de France (held in July).
If a guy like Millar – who was a superb cyclist – is saying this, you can take it that the sport at that stage was at the limit of endurance, drugs or not.
Funny, I recall Millar writing in Cycle Sport magazine in the mid-1990’s saying that he found it inexplicable how certain riders were able to climb without any discernible sign of stress. He put it this way,
“there is definitely something going on. I had three guys climbing beside me (Jalabert/Zulle/Rincon) on the Tourmalet. They didn’t even look like they were breathing. Can someone tell me how, climbing at 28kph up one of Europes steepest climbs, one can do so without opening their mouth to breath?”
Stephen Roche, himself 1987 TDF, commentating on Europsort in 1997, was gobsmacked at how easy the climbing appeared to be on the highest steeps.
If you've ever been to Alp D'Huez, you would see that the left hand side of each corner had a more gradual incline, compared to the right hand side of each corner.
Virenque/Pantani/Ullrich, were all using the right hand corner approach to each turn without any discernible effort.
Roche stated "Dave (Duffield), I don't know how these guys are doing that. We always cornered the Alppine climbs on the easier incline (on the left). Look at what these boys are doing, they're cornering on the steep side of each turn. Far harder, Dave. Far, far harder. And using massive amounts of energy in the process. I wouldn't be able to do - not with 2 weeks of riding in my legs".
The sport is probably the toughest endurance sport there is – and in many cases bodies are pushed to the absolute physical limit in pursuit of success at the very highest levels.
For example, one could ride Tour de France distance 3,000 miles in the 3 weeks, going at 15mph.
It may take you 200 hours to do so – but it can be done in three weeks without overtaxing the body too much.
Ramp up the speed to 25mph, for every single mile, the body then comes under enormous physical stress.
I have read quite a lot of books about the sport and the riders who have ridden in the game.
Robert Millar the great Scottish rider of the 1980/90’s said that some Tours de France were so tough that, in one year, it wasn’t until November that he had recovered from that years Tour de France (held in July).
If a guy like Millar – who was a superb cyclist – is saying this, you can take it that the sport at that stage was at the limit of endurance, drugs or not.
Funny, I recall Millar writing in Cycle Sport magazine in the mid-1990’s saying that he found it inexplicable how certain riders were able to climb without any discernible sign of stress. He put it this way,
“there is definitely something going on. I had three guys climbing beside me (Jalabert/Zulle/Rincon) on the Tourmalet. They didn’t even look like they were breathing. Can someone tell me how, climbing at 28kph up one of Europes steepest climbs, one can do so without opening their mouth to breath?”
Stephen Roche, himself 1987 TDF, commentating on Europsort in 1997, was gobsmacked at how easy the climbing appeared to be on the highest steeps.
If you've ever been to Alp D'Huez, you would see that the left hand side of each corner had a more gradual incline, compared to the right hand side of each corner.
Virenque/Pantani/Ullrich, were all using the right hand corner approach to each turn without any discernible effort.
Roche stated "Dave (Duffield), I don't know how these guys are doing that. We always cornered the Alppine climbs on the easier incline (on the left). Look at what these boys are doing, they're cornering on the steep side of each turn. Far harder, Dave. Far, far harder. And using massive amounts of energy in the process. I wouldn't be able to do - not with 2 weeks of riding in my legs".
limerickman said:
I recall Herrera retiring because he got fed up of being dropped by big heavy guys on the climbs...
L_I_R said:This is brilliant stuff guys thank you
If I'm trying to some it up then,
From the early times say 1950-1998, doping was rife amongst cyclists of all levels, wether it was from amateurs trying to get themselves a cycling contract with a professional team or the greats trying to push themselves just that little bit further.
Then came operation puerto which seemed to spell the end for cycling as i saw it, how could the sport recover when so many big names were implicated.
L_I_R
Bigger names had been caught doping in the 50's, 60's and 70's than had been implicated in Operation Puerto. The likes of Ulrich and Basso pale into insignificance when compared to Merckx, Anqutil, Moser and Maertens. OP further brought drugs in cycling to the attention of the masses but to those involved with the sport it really wasn't anything new, unless their head was buried well and truely in the sand...
limerickman said:
Herrera worked Hinault over on the Alpe that year for a stage win. The following monster stage, Millar put in several huge attacks causing Hinault to self implode and lose quite a few more minutes.
I think Hinault finished second that year, over 10 minutes down on Fignon. Kelly through a tissyfit at the judges in the final time trial saying that the times had been altered and he should have won...
Herrera was the second man to win the Mountains jersey in all three Tours.
The reputation of cycling today and for the future shows promise, but it has a longlimerickman said:
way to go before it becomes credible.
The agencies that control cycling and doping in the individual countries have to cooperate across country boundaries and with WADA. The testing process has
to be transparent and the evidence has to be irrefutable and consistent.
I think biological passports for all licensed cyclists is a step forward and I hope it
works. The cyclists have to cooperate, the team management has to make clean
riding a higher priority than winning or the same priority as winning, the countries have to honor the discpline given out to riders. You can't ride it Italy, but its OK
to ride everywhere else defeats doping controls.
As long as the win at all costs mentally exists in cycling, on the team level, on the
cyclists level, doping will continue.
I enjoy watching the cycling one day events and the tours. I am disappointed when riders are caught doping, but it doesn't dim my enthusiam and hope for cycling events. Usually it just means a cyclist who was doing well, doesn't get to finish the
tour.
as a sport is has suffered a bunch in the last 11-12 years.. really even longer then that (not just the only pro sport that has suffered).
I do my best to keep things in perspective, and will always consider cycling first and formost a needed form of transportation(in all countries).
I do my best to keep things in perspective, and will always consider cycling first and formost a needed form of transportation(in all countries).
shawnrohrbach said:
Since submitting this post (above) the agreement I had to publish this book did not go through for a variety of reasons and it was picked up quickly by another publisher and we are on target for a June release. However, this delay allowed me to revisit some of the interviews to see if i needed to change anything in the fictional account and one of the cyclists I interviewed who willingly admitted to a doping program committed suicide at the age of 29. He had been found out and stopped doping and also stopped winning and his wife said he could not tolerate that. RIP
L_I_R said:
In 98 I was run over by a semi-trailer ("bloody big truck" in other countries) and got busted up pretty badly as a result. Many broken bones, puncture pleura, and (the worst of my injuries) nerve damage. I left the bike on the wall for the sake of my young family for six long years.
After that long period off the bike the wife and kids went on holidays and I started riding again while they were away. Not a lot was said after they got back and discovered the bike no longer hanging on the wall.
I started training under a coach, lost 40kg and was eventually able to match it with A grade riders when age related setbacks didn't get in the way.
It was during these times that questions and jibes relating to drug use began to emerge from fellow competitors (at club level, mind you). From a muscular and skeletal standpoint I had enormous hereditary advantage over almost everyone. I only needed 10% increase in muscle mass to be fast and strong, and that came down to some very simple training specific to cycling. So, when fronted with opportunistic accusations of drug use, I was floored.
How would you feel if you were accused of cheating through using drugs to gain advantage? I can tell you now that after having been through it that there's absolutely no way to win the argument. It doesn't matter wthether the accuser is right or wrong. And it stays with you forever, no matter how it was raised in the first place.
And then drug use came to visit for real. Not with me, but with someone I had trained with, raced against, and watched in awe as they won World Championship medals. A positive drug test by that one guy meant for a completely different reality.
Other experienced riders had previously mentioned that people were willing to use drugs to cheat, even at Masters level. Until that huge positive drug result I remained skeptical and a little bit jaded. When the hens came home to roost I was so angry that I let my world collapse around me, and it is not likely that I will venture compete again. Even at club level.
Winning cycle races is based on being able to suffer more than your opponent(s). And that is exactly where the incentive to cheat comes from.
IMHO cycling is forever buggered whilst ever greed driven monkeys continue to ride the machines.
So there is my view on cycling and how I see it as a sport after all the latest doping
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