rj hock chain wax?

[peter z]

Hi everyone,

Has anyone come across RJ Hock Chain Wax recently? I still have a can I
bought from Nashbar a few years ago but can't locate any current sources. I
find this stuff to be the best lube for road bikes ridden in dry clean
conditions (99% of my riding fits this).

Sure would like to get another can, stuff lasts a long time and is totally
mess free.

http://members.shaw.ca/plz/chain_wax.jpg

Any leads appreciated.

-Peter

 

[dale b]

peter z wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Has anyone come across RJ Hock Chain Wax recently? I still have a can I
> bought from Nashbar a few years ago but can't locate any current sources. I
> find this stuff to be the best lube for road bikes ridden in dry clean
> conditions (99% of my riding fits this).
>
> Sure would like to get another can, stuff lasts a long time and is totally
> mess free.
>
> http://members.shaw.ca/plz/chain_wax.jpg
>
> Any leads appreciated.
>
> -Peter

http://www.bikepro.com/products/chains/chainwax.html

dale b

 

[[email protected]]

peter z wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> Has anyone come across RJ Hock Chain Wax recently? I still have a can I
> bought from Nashbar a few years ago but can't locate any current sources. I
> find this stuff to be the best lube for road bikes ridden in dry clean
> conditions (99% of my riding fits this).
>
> Sure would like to get another can, stuff lasts a long time and is totally
> mess free.
>
> http://members.shaw.ca/plz/chain_wax.jpg
>
> Any leads appreciated.
>

Get some paraffin wax from your grocery store. It is 5 times cheaper.
Heat wax in double boiler until it melts. Presto. The parafin is
usually in the canning section of the store. I been using parafin for
years. I wax two chains. Use one for a few months, and then I switch to
the other. Repeat process.

Andres

 

[[email protected]]

Andres Muro writes:

>> Has anyone come across RJ Hock Chain Wax recently? I still have a
>> can I bought from Nashbar a few years ago but can't locate any
>> current sources. I find this stuff to be the best lube for road
>> bikes ridden in dry clean conditions (99% of my riding fits this).

>> Sure would like to get another can, stuff lasts a long time and is
>> totally mess free.

http://members.shaw.ca/plz/chain_wax.jpg

> Get some paraffin wax from your grocery store. It is 5 times
> cheaper. Heat wax in double boiler until it melts. Presto. The
> paraffin is usually in the canning section of the store. I been
> using paraffin for years. I wax two chains. Use one for a few
> months, and then I switch to the other. Repeat process.

As incentive to not do that, Bike Pro includes statements like:

# The paraffin base is mixed with other high pressure lubrication
# additives including particulate poly-tetro-flouro-ethylene which is
# the compound name for DuPont Teflon.

What is meant by "high pressure lubrication additives" and allusions
to Teflon that is renowned as a slippery substance, remains undefined
while the implication is obvious. Again, bicycling is the only
machine of which I know on which lubrication theory seems to break
down. I see no other chain driven machines that use wax, or for that
matter machines that use wax as a lubricant.

You might be surprised how long a dash of oil on a chain will last in
the environment in which the OP expects to ride (clean and dry). No
wonder he can get along with wax.

Jobst Brandt

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 21:11:33 GMT, [email protected] wrote:

>What is meant by "high pressure lubrication additives" and allusions
>to Teflon that is renowned as a slippery substance, remains undefined
>while the implication is obvious. Again, bicycling is the only
>machine of which I know on which lubrication theory seems to break
>down. I see no other chain driven machines that use wax, or for that
>matter machines that use wax as a lubricant.

Yeah, but most machines put a cover on their chains (if not an entire
factory hall). Bikes, being man-driven, are much more weight sensitive.
Plus the derailer kind of prohibits it.

>You might be surprised how long a dash of oil on a chain will last in
>the environment in which the OP expects to ride (clean and dry). No
>wonder he can get along with wax.

Most bikes also ride so little, yet get so much cash spent on them, that
if it wasn't for water intrusion you might as well run them dry, and
people still wouldn't complain about the frequency of chain renewal.

Jasper

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:
>
> # The paraffin base is mixed with other high pressure lubrication
> # additives including particulate poly-tetro-flouro-ethylene which is
> # the compound name for DuPont Teflon.
>
> What is meant by "high pressure lubrication additives" and allusions
> to Teflon that is renowned as a slippery substance, remains undefined
> while the implication is obvious. Again, bicycling is the only
> machine of which I know on which lubrication theory seems to break
> down. I see no other chain driven machines that use wax, or for that
> matter machines that use wax as a lubricant.
>
> You might be surprised how long a dash of oil on a chain will last in
> the environment in which the OP expects to ride (clean and dry). No
> wonder he can get along with wax.
>
> Jobst Brandt

You may be right. However, I,ve been using paraffin since the 80s. My
original motivation was that I hated to get oil stains in different
things. Waxed chains are clean and work very well for me. Living in El
Paso I rarely get my chain wet, and if I do, I'll rewax it. I've put
plenty of miles on waxed chains and I don't notice any performance
defficiency compared to the times I put oil. Wax keeps the drivetrain
working smooth and quiet so I am happy with it.

If waxing a chain will cut its lifetime, so be it. I rather have a
clean chain that will last less time. After all, once the chain becomes
useless, I can turn it into these bracelets like the ones that are
being sold at the mall for $10 a piece. With one single stretched sram
chain, I can make five or six of those.

Andres

 

[[email protected]]

Jasper Janssen writes:

>> What is meant by "high pressure lubrication additives" and
>> allusions to Teflon that is renowned as a slippery substance,
>> remains undefined while the implication is obvious. Again,
>> bicycling is the only machine of which I know on which lubrication
>> theory seems to break down. I see no other chain driven machines
>> that use wax, or for that matter machines that use wax as a
>> lubricant.

> Yeah, but most machines put a cover on their chains (if not an
> entire factory hall). Bikes, being man-driven, are much more weight
> sensitive. Plus the derailer kind of prohibits it.

I think you are overlooking many chain driven vehicles and outdoor
machinery that has exposed chains.

>> You might be surprised how long a dash of oil on a chain will last
>> in the environment in which the OP expects to ride (clean and dry).
>> No wonder he can get along with wax.

> Most bikes also ride so little, yet get so much cash spent on them, that
> if it wasn't for water intrusion you might as well run them dry, and
> people still wouldn't complain about the frequency of chain renewal.

I agree. Besides, those who ride much also don't ask whether chain
rust will damage their bicycle.

Jobst Brandt

 

[peter z]

"dale b" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> peter z wrote:
> >
> > Has anyone come across RJ Hock Chain Wax recently?
>
> http://www.bikepro.com/products/chains/chainwax.html
>

Thanks Dale. Will follow up next week and see if they still have it. The web
site seems partially down.

-Peter

 

[Sheldon Brown]

>
>>>Has anyone come across RJ Hock Chain Wax recently? I still have a
>>>can I bought from Nashbar a few years ago but can't locate any
>>>current sources. I find this stuff to be the best lube for road
>>>bikes ridden in dry clean conditions (99% of my riding fits this).
>
>>>Sure would like to get another can, stuff lasts a long time and is
>>>totally mess free.
>
We used to sell this, got it from United Bicycle Parts. Last time I
tried to re-order, they told me that it had been discontinued. That was
several years ago.

I've still got some in the bottom of an old electric crock pot at the shop.
>
> http://members.shaw.ca/plz/chain_wax.jpg
>
Andres Muro wrote:
>
>>Get some paraffin wax from your grocery store. It is 5 times
>>cheaper. Heat wax in double boiler until it melts. Presto. The
>>paraffin is usually in the canning section of the store. I been
>>using paraffin for years. I wax two chains. Use one for a few
>>months, and then I switch to the other. Repeat process.
>
Jobst Brandt added:
>
> As incentive to not do that, Bike Pro includes statements like:
>
> # The paraffin base is mixed with other high pressure lubrication
> # additives including particulate poly-tetro-flouro-ethylene which is
> # the compound name for DuPont Teflon.

I've heard that mixing a bit of STP with garden variety paraffin
produces something quite similar to the Hock wax.

I tried riding with Hock wax for a while, but found it unsuitable for my
local conditions. Might be OK for a fair-weather cyclist, but it
doesn't work in the rain.

I'm back to good ol' Phil Wood, never found anything that works better
for me.

Sheldon "Philophile" Brown
+----------------------------------+
| Good health is nothing but the |
| slowest way to die. -Les Barker |
+----------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[[email protected]]

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> >
>
>
> I've heard that mixing a bit of STP with garden variety paraffin
> produces something quite similar to the Hock wax.
>
> I tried riding with Hock wax for a while, but found it unsuitable for my
> local conditions. Might be OK for a fair-weather cyclist, but it
> doesn't work in the rain.

For many years, I've been using paraffin wax with a bit of oil blended
in - perhaps 5% by volume. I did one batch using SAW 10W-30, one batch
using SAE 90. I forget which one I'm using now, since a mixed batch
lasts for about ten years.

I have no problems with rain. A rainy ride may cause a very tiny film
of rust on chain links and steel cogs, but it normally doesn't cause
squeaking, etc. from what I can tell.

And, FWIW, I hot wax the chain right on the bike, heating with a
propane torch, about 8" at a time. It's quick and easy. The _only_
time I use oil on a chain is if I'm on a long tour.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:
> Jasper Janssen writes:
>
> >>
> >> bicycling is the only machine of which I know on which lubrication
> >> theory seems to break down. I see no other chain driven machines
> >> that use wax, or for that matter machines that use wax as a
> >> lubricant.
>
> > Yeah, but most machines put a cover on their chains (if not an
> > entire factory hall). Bikes, being man-driven, are much more weight
> > sensitive. Plus the derailer kind of prohibits it.
>
> I think you are overlooking many chain driven vehicles and outdoor
> machinery that has exposed chains.

Sorry, Jobst, but a bike is pretty close to unique. First, the chain
doesn't run in the normal high speed, low tension conditions of
ordinary roller chains; instead, it's used in tension mode, at very low
pitch line velocity.

Second, it does live in a nastier environment than most roller chains,
by far. Standard industrial practice is to keep dirt, mud and water
away, not to sling that stuff at the chain off a front wheel.

Third, a bike is different from, say, a golf cart in that the operator
frequently comes in contact with the chain, frequently prefers
cleanliness, and frequently doesn't want a chain enclosure.

> >> You might be surprised how long a dash of oil on a chain will last
> >> in the environment in which the OP expects to ride (clean and dry).
> >> No wonder he can get along with wax.

Pure paraffin wax is no good in rain. But blend in about 5% oil, and
rain is no problem. My city is one of the rainiest in the country, by
one measure (specifically, the percentage of time that something wet is
falling out of the sky). I use only wax with a bit of oil, and have no
reason to change to something that turns black & messy in 100 miles.

YMMV, of course. But knocking it before trying it isn't very wise.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[[email protected]]

On 20 Aug 2005 19:52:18 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>[email protected] wrote:
>> Jasper Janssen writes:
>>
>> >>
>> >> bicycling is the only machine of which I know on which lubrication
>> >> theory seems to break down. I see no other chain driven machines
>> >> that use wax, or for that matter machines that use wax as a
>> >> lubricant.
>>
>> > Yeah, but most machines put a cover on their chains (if not an
>> > entire factory hall). Bikes, being man-driven, are much more weight
>> > sensitive. Plus the derailer kind of prohibits it.
>>
>> I think you are overlooking many chain driven vehicles and outdoor
>> machinery that has exposed chains.
>
>Sorry, Jobst, but a bike is pretty close to unique. First, the chain
>doesn't run in the normal high speed, low tension conditions of
>ordinary roller chains; instead, it's used in tension mode, at very low
>pitch line velocity.
>
>Second, it does live in a nastier environment than most roller chains,
>by far. Standard industrial practice is to keep dirt, mud and water
>away, not to sling that stuff at the chain off a front wheel.
>
>Third, a bike is different from, say, a golf cart in that the operator
>frequently comes in contact with the chain, frequently prefers
>cleanliness, and frequently doesn't want a chain enclosure.
>
>> >> You might be surprised how long a dash of oil on a chain will last
>> >> in the environment in which the OP expects to ride (clean and dry).
>> >> No wonder he can get along with wax.
>
>Pure paraffin wax is no good in rain. But blend in about 5% oil, and
>rain is no problem. My city is one of the rainiest in the country, by
>one measure (specifically, the percentage of time that something wet is
>falling out of the sky). I use only wax with a bit of oil, and have no
>reason to change to something that turns black & messy in 100 miles.
>
>YMMV, of course. But knocking it before trying it isn't very wise.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,

What are your thoughts on chainsaws?

Carl Fogel

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:
>
> Dear Frank,
>
> What are your thoughts on chainsaws?

Hmm. Noisy, efficient, and difficult to juggle.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[[email protected]]

On 20 Aug 2005 21:13:56 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>
>[email protected] wrote:
>>
>> Dear Frank,
>>
>> What are your thoughts on chainsaws?
>
>Hmm. Noisy, efficient, and difficult to juggle.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Dear Frank,

The same is true of bowling balls, judging by the jugglers
that I've seen.

But as for the chainsaw's chain, what about its tension,
speed, and squalor, and whether you'd wax or oil it?

We see frequent bicycle-chain comments here that mention
chainsaws, so I'm wondering if the two really are
comparable.

Carl Fogel

 

[John Everett]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 18:00:17 GMT, "peter z" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>Hi everyone,
>
>Has anyone come across RJ Hock Chain Wax recently? I still have a can I
>bought from Nashbar a few years ago but can't locate any current sources. I
>find this stuff to be the best lube for road bikes ridden in dry clean
>conditions (99% of my riding fits this).
>
>Sure would like to get another can, stuff lasts a long time and is totally
>mess free.
>
>http://members.shaw.ca/plz/chain_wax.jpg
>
>Any leads appreciated.

As can be seen from some of the responses already posted, chain
lubrication can be a bit of a religious issue. My guess is that you'd
be just as happy with the results if you cleaned out your Hock can and
replaced the contents with grocery store paraffin.

These discussions used to get a lot more heated, but it seems chain
waxing is becoming something of a lost art. Suffice to say that if a
chain is kept really clean and lubricated with almost anything
slippery it will last a very long time. A google groups search will
turn up articles I posted in the mid '90s about my 18,000 mile plus
Dura Ace chain, one that had only received hot wax lubrication.

My "racing bikes" still get the hot wax treatment, but my MTB and
touring bikes get White Lightning. It's not that I think White
Lightning is in any way superior, it's just that my former race team
got it free. I still have bottles of the stuff laying around.



jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net http://home.earthlink.net/~jeverett3

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 14:16:22 GMT, John Everett
<[email protected]> wrote:

>My "racing bikes" still get the hot wax treatment, but my MTB and
>touring bikes get White Lightning. It's not that I think White
>Lightning is in any way superior, it's just that my former race team
>got it free. I still have bottles of the stuff laying around.

Isn't White Lightning a strong alcohol for the homeless kind of thing?

Jasper

 

[[email protected]]

[email protected] wrote:
>
> But as for the chainsaw's chain, what about its tension,
> speed, and squalor, and whether you'd wax or oil it?
>
> We see frequent bicycle-chain comments here that mention
> chainsaws, so I'm wondering if the two really are
> comparable.

Not really, in my view. The most important difference is this: Nobody
cares in the least if their chainsaw chain gets grungy, since they
scrupulously avoid touching it. And the "grunge" that a saw chain
deals with is normally soft wood, not abrasive road grit.

But also, the chainsaw chain operates at relatively low tension at
relatively high speeds. This combination is much more typical of
industrial power chains than the high tension, low speed of a bike
chain.

In addition, the saw chain has to deal with significant heat of
friction, caused by it sliding through the wood and over the saw blade.
A constant supply of oil helps dissipate this heat. Not a problem for
a bicycle.

- Frank Krygowski

 

[Joe Riel]

[email protected] writes:

> In addition, the saw chain has to deal with significant heat of
> friction, caused by it sliding through the wood and over the saw blade.
> A constant supply of oil helps dissipate this heat. Not a problem for
> a bicycle.

Does the oil actually help dissipate the heat? I assume it reduces
the heat, by reducing the friction. It's not like the saw is working
in an oil bath. Do the saws (for cutting rock) which incorporate an
oil/liquid bath use them primarily for conduction cooling of the
blade? Probably, but I've never really thought about it.

Joe

 

[Bruce Graham]

In article <[email protected]>,
[email protected] says...
> And the "grunge" that a saw chain
> deals with is normally soft wood, not abrasive road grit.
>
around here, hardwoods (the common river red-gum) can have up to 8%
silica content. You need to sharpen the chain saw many times a day (and
planing is only practical by power plane with carbide blades)

 

[Jasper Janssen]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2005 04:50:13 GMT, Joe Riel <[email protected]> wrote:

>Do the saws (for cutting rock) which incorporate an
>oil/liquid bath use them primarily for conduction cooling of the
>blade? Probably, but I've never really thought about it.

Yes. All serious metalworking (lathes, drills, routers, etc and so forth)
takes place in a cooling bath, usually oil. Usually a permanently renewed
cooling oil, even, so it's not just conduction cooling either. Even if you
just put water on your stone drill bit, you can keep the temperature below
100C (and you'll notice if it doesn't), which is not the case with
uncooled workings.

Mining drills (to make holes for sticks of dynamite) gush water liberally
when they're working.


Jasper