Say it aint so Shimano ... PART 2

[Basjan]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Tom-<< For many products, MSRPs are set somewhat above a typical selling
price.
> It's a game, it's a way of making the usual selling price appear to be a discount, and thus seem
> like a better deal. >><BR><BR>
>
> Perhaps a game for some bike shops, but not ours. We don't inflate the
price
> then say'I'll give you 10% off, 'jus cuz I like the cut of your jib' type
of
> nonsense.
>
> We price everything at MSRP if there is one, and use a standard margin if
there
> is not. We do not price match or anything like that.
>
> << The hell they aren't. >><BR><BR>
>
> If ya can get a CK hs for $88, go right ahead...Just like a $30 Conti GP
or a
> $140 pair of SP pedals but don't slam a manufacturer for trying to protect their retailers or
> their product.
>
> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

A big issue here is locality as well - Peter's shop is in yuppie heaven (Boulder, CO). I simply
cannot afford Campy prices, MO or LBS (how do you justify spending $200 on a Record rear derailleur
vs. $75 DA?). As a student I have spent about $1700 on a full Dura Ace Pinarello using Ebay, MO, and
LBS - a bike that would otherwise have cost me around $2500-$3000. I do most of the work myself
(using proper tools I bought MO), except an odd wheel build or headset installation, when I don't
feel too adventurous. So if I walk into the LBS and ask for a derailleur clamp and the guy quotes me
$35, not willing to budge on the price, and I can get it for $15 through MO, I feel I have given the
LBS a chance. If he was just willing to deal a little bit... I simply cannot afford it!

Now if you ride a fully loaded "MSRP-paid" C-40 of $5000 (as a well-off cyclist in yuppie-town or
anywhere else, for that matter) and need a $35 clamp, you probably just fork it out and have it
installed by someone else anyway...

You'll have my business if I can afford it as well, a sort of "let's meet each other halfway"-type
situation. I love the smell, excitement, and soul of a great LBS, but I cannot survive supporting
one all the time. I think many LBS'es have to adapt to the times - the market has changed from a
mainly seller's to a mainly buyer's scenario.

 

[Basjan]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> A high end Ford isn't the same as a high end Mercedes either. Chorus,
altho
> more expensive as well, is more like DA. Carbon and titanium isn't cheap.

Bad example (I'd rather say a fully loaded Camry vs. top-end Merc), but exactly my point. It is
senseless to pay more than double for the Merc if you can have a Camry that will last as long, also
has leather seats, also drives at the posted 65mph, has all the other amenities, but may be less
prestigious. Even if it does fail, I can still buy two for less than the price of one. So in the end
it also has a lot to do with marketing of the "superior" brand, along with perceived value increase
vs. a top performing, long-lasting, alternative. If that is important to a client, so be it, but
don't tell me that the alternative is lacking! It is merely a case of if I want a Merc, I want a
Merc, but I very likely don't need one.

> MSRP for a C-40 frameset/fork/seatpost/stem is $4200, with a group it is a
lot
> more, MSRP..why we don't sell them anymore, you can get a C-40 on-line for $5000, complete.

Agian true, but if I buy a $5000 bike, I probably wouldn't mind paying MSRP on small items. For me,
every dollar counts...

> basjan<< I think many LBS'es have to adapt to the times - the market has changed from a mainly
> seller's to a mainly buyer's scenario.
>
> Knowledge, info, service hasn't changed.

Yes, and I am willing to pay for that knowledge/info/service, sometimes $40/hour, but I have to
offset with cheaper parts elsewhere. Remember, knowledge also comes from learning and experience, so
the gap decreases all the time for small-time DIY "wrenches" like me...if only I could afford all
those gorgeous tools!!

>
> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Basjan]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> basjan-<< It is senseless to pay more than double for the Merc if you can have a Camry that will
> last as long, also has leather seats, also drives at the posted 65mph, has all the other
> amenities, but may be less prestigious. >><BR><BR>
>
> Mercedes sells all they make. As does Campagnolo and Record.

Again perceived value, while Camry sells more, because it is tremensous bang for the buck. Not as
flashy though...

> basjan-<< It is merely a case of if I want a Merc, I want a Merc, but I very likely don't need
> one. >><BR><BR>
>
>
> You don't 'need' any bicycle either. These are leisure time pieces of equipment, 'fun', afterall.
> having a bicycle isn't 'practical' in most
senses
> of the word.

And one doesn't need a car, air-conditioning, microwaves, and so on...but in our case: You have a
bike, you need a dearilleur. DA is excellent value (great performance and durability at a good
price), while Campy Rec. has all of the above plus the flash and status of Record with it's bits and
pieces of carbon/titanium grandeur! So if you want that flash, knock yourself out...

> Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St. Boulder, CO, 80302
> (303)440-3535 http://www.vecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

 

[Bfd]

"basjan" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > basjan-<< It is senseless to pay more than double for the Merc if you can have a Camry that will
> > last as long, also has leather seats, also drives at the posted 65mph, has all the other
> > amenities, but may be less prestigious. >><BR><BR>
> >
> > Mercedes sells all they make. As does Campagnolo and Record.
>
> Again perceived value, while Camry sells more, because it is tremensous bang for the buck. Not as
> flashy though...
>
>
> > basjan-<< It is merely a case of if I want a Merc, I want a Merc, but I very likely don't need
> > one. >><BR><BR>
> >
> >
> > You don't 'need' any bicycle either. These are leisure time pieces of equipment, 'fun',
> > afterall. having a bicycle isn't 'practical' in most
> senses
> > of the word.
>
> And one doesn't need a car, air-conditioning, microwaves, and so on...but in our case: You have a
> bike, you need a dearilleur. DA is excellent value (great performance and durability at a good
> price), while Campy Rec. has all of the above plus the flash and status of Record with it's bits
> and pieces of carbon/titanium grandeur! So if you want that flash, knock yourself out...
>
I think the issue here is more ergonomics than "what's better". The first factor you need to look at
is which shifter YOU are more comfortable with. IF you're more comfortable with shimano STI
shifters, than DA or even ultegra is the choice. IF you are more comfortable with Campy Ergo
shifters, than you should choose a Campy rear der. Yes, if you're mechanically-inclined, it is
possible to run Campy Ergo Shifters with Shimano rear der, see here:

http://www.hubbub.com/ergoleverswshim9.htm

But, the *easiest* thing to do is to run a Campy rear der with Campy Ergo shifters.

As to value, Peter is right, you should compare material to material, not each company's perceived
top line. Campy CHORUS rear der is the one that is "equivalent" to Shimano DA rear der in that both
are made out of the same material - aluminum. Granted, Chorus stuff is still more expensive, but the
difference is not much as you state.

 

[Basjan]

Good points, true that the top-of-the-line of two companies are not created equally. I just think
that you don't get a lot extra for the $195-$65 = $130 difference in the rear derailleur of Record
vs. DA (or Chorus for that matter). But again, only my opinion, if you want o pay more, you have all
the right to!

"bfd" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> "basjan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > basjan-<< It is senseless to pay more than double for the Merc if you can have a Camry that
> > > will last as long, also has leather seats,
also
> > > drives at the posted 65mph, has all the other amenities, but may be
less
> > > prestigious. >><BR><BR>
> > >
> > > Mercedes sells all they make. As does Campagnolo and Record.
> >
> > Again perceived value, while Camry sells more, because it is tremensous
bang
> > for the buck. Not as flashy though...
> >
> >
> > > basjan-<< It is merely a case of if I want a Merc, I want a Merc, but I very likely don't need
> > > one.
>><BR><BR>
> > >
> > >
> > > You don't 'need' any bicycle either. These are leisure time pieces of equipment, 'fun',
> > > afterall. having a bicycle isn't 'practical' in most
> > senses
> > > of the word.
> >
> > And one doesn't need a car, air-conditioning, microwaves, and so
on...but in
> > our case: You have a bike, you need a dearilleur. DA is excellent
value
> > (great performance and durability at a good price), while Campy Rec. has
all
> > of the above plus the flash and status of Record with it's bits and
pieces
> > of carbon/titanium grandeur! So if you want that flash, knock yourself out...
> >
> I think the issue here is more ergonomics than "what's better". The first factor you need to look
> at is which shifter YOU are more comfortable with. IF you're more comfortable with shimano STI
> shifters, than DA or even ultegra is the choice. IF you are more comfortable with Campy Ergo
> shifters, than you should choose a Campy rear der. Yes, if you're mechanically-inclined, it is
> possible to run Campy Ergo Shifters with Shimano rear der, see here:
>
> http://www.hubbub.com/ergoleverswshim9.htm
>
> But, the *easiest* thing to do is to run a Campy rear der with Campy Ergo shifters.
>
> As to value, Peter is right, you should compare material to material, not each company's perceived
> top line. Campy CHORUS rear der is the one that is "equivalent" to Shimano DA rear der in that
> both are made out of the same material - aluminum. Granted, Chorus stuff is still more expensive,
> but the difference is not much as you state.

 

[Marten Hoffmann]

[email protected] schreef ...
>
> "Marten Hoffmann" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > After going through three so-called "high quality" headsets in five years' time (on an off-road
> > tandem) the CK is a big relief because it's working flawlessly for 7 years now.
> >
> > --
> > Regards, Marten
>
> What do you have to do to a headset to go through 3 in 5 years? Improperly installed?

Ride a lot off-road and refuse to pay the money for a real headset, assuming that they would wear
out often anyway. Actually i was being a bit of a cheapskate; but I learned my lesson!

--
Regards, Marten

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Qui si parla
Campagnolo) wrote:

> basjan-<< And one doesn't need a car, >><BR><BR>
>
> This is a bit of heresy, but with the way towns, cities, etc are designed, I think some form of 4
> wheel transportation is essential for most people. It just isn't possible to do everything you
> need to do each day via a bike or bus or train. Not saying this is a good thing but the conspiracy
> of the auto makers/oil companys and how they have applied their power to town design is there and
> something we have to live with.
>
> << You have a bike, you need a dearilleur. DA is excellent value (great performance and durability
> at a good price), while Campy Rec. has all of the above plus the flash and status of Record with
> it's bits and pieces of carbon/titanium grandeur! >><BR><BR>
>
> My point is that similar things at the top of a product list are not necessarily equal. Materials,
> design and price make them different, not comparible altho both at the 'top'.

Well, derailleurs are pretty easy to compare. They're not like Swarovski Crystal, where taste is the
key arbiter to desirability and perceived value. Someone here suggested that comparing groups of
similar materials was most accurate, but I reject this as looking at features rather than
functionality. Being made of Ti doesn't make a component better; being lighter does.

I posit that these are the five major factors in the purchase of a component group, in rough order
of importance:

-Price -Performance -Reliability -Weight -Aesthetics

Price is tricky. It probably varies in rank more than any other factor. There are certainly people
(DA/Record buyers) for whom price is simply not a factor (they can afford any available gruppo) or
even an inverse factor (they have a preference for the "best"). I, on the other hand, buy Sora.

I'd suggest that performance is a wash: Any Brand S or Campy road group shifts, brakes, and cranks
great, with enough detail differences to sway some people either way (because you like shifting from
the drops or prefer brake levers that don't go sideways, for example).

Reliability should be quantifiable, but if warranty repair rate stats have ever escaped from the
Shimano or Campagnolo world headquarters, I haven't seen them. I'll let Peter and Sheldon duke it
out with regard to the relative durability.

I'm going to controversially assert that there's no objective preference for Shimano or Campy's top
stuff (DA vs. Record) in performance or reliability. Both are really functional and don't break
often. Most importantly, reports from this group indicate that neither DA or Record is notably more
durable or better-shifting than the respective lesser gruppos of each company. So getting the best
stuff doesn't make your bike shift much better, if at all.

So the question is, how do these companies differentiate their cheap and expensive groups? Casting
aside features designed to make them incrementally more durable or high-performance than lesser
groups (Shimano's new two-piece crank/BB and 10v rear, for example), they mainly differ from lesser
groups by weight.

Weight is easy to compare, as figures are widely available. You can even do a part-to-part
comparison and build a super-gruppo of the lightest compatible bits of each group (DA BB and Campy
derailleurs, for a made-up example).

The easiest things to quantify are thus weight and price. The cost of each group and the weight of
each group are available, so just set up a matrix of group weights and prices (and a ratio of the
two) to find out the relative rankings of all component groups.

I won't consider Aesthetics here. De gustibus non disputandum est.

Let the games begin,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

 

[B A R R Y B U R]

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 00:05:15 +0200, Marten Hoffmann <[email protected]> wrote:

>
>> What do you have to do to a headset to go through 3 in 5 years? Improperly installed?
>
>Ride a lot off-road and refuse to pay the money for a real headset, assuming that they would wear
>out often anyway. Actually i was being a bit of a cheapskate; but I learned my lesson!

I ride a lot off road, and my headsets don't wear out. My most expensive headset is a $45 Cane
Creek. The LBS I work at rarely sees worn headsets that are properly installed.

Were you leaving the bike out in the rain or something when not riding? <G>

Barry

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Qui si parla
Campagnolo) wrote:

> ryan-<< Being made of Ti doesn't make a component better; being lighter does. >><BR><BR>
>
> Nope, if it is lighter, it is just lighter, not better .But a Record rear der isn't better than a
> Chorus one, just more expensive cuz it uses ti and carbon.
>
> My Rolex isn't better than a Seiko, but I like my Rolex.

Hey, weren't you the same guy complaining that there aren't any bike shop owners driving Benzes?

Have a Seiko as my good watch,
--
Ryan Cousineau, [email protected] http://www.sfu.ca/~rcousine President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club