Science Proves Mountain Biking Is More Harmful Than Hiking



"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:54:20 -0500, "di" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> .
> .?
> .>
> .> You didn't read it, did you? There are places you can learn to read,

even
> .after
> .> you are too old for school.
> .
> .
> .You don't have to read it to know what it says, just read the first
> .paragraph or two and the credits at the end to know it's mostly BS

composed
> .by a group of idiots only interested in promoting their views on others.
> .
> .Besides why waste your time, we've heard it all many times on this NG.
>
> It's nice to have a demonstration of how mountain bikers (don't) think!

THANKS!

No, it just proves we're smart enough to know what's going to be said based
on previous data, and therefore don't need to waste our time and energy
engaging in fiction.
 
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:43:29 -0500, "di" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 03:54:20 -0500, "di" <[email protected]> wrote:
..>
..> .
..> .?
..> .>
..> .> You didn't read it, did you? There are places you can learn to read,
..even
..> .after
..> .> you are too old for school.
..> .
..> .
..> .You don't have to read it to know what it says, just read the first
..> .paragraph or two and the credits at the end to know it's mostly BS
..composed
..> .by a group of idiots only interested in promoting their views on others.
..> .
..> .Besides why waste your time, we've heard it all many times on this NG.
..>
..> It's nice to have a demonstration of how mountain bikers (don't) think!
..THANKS!
..
..No, it just proves we're smart enough to know what's going to be said based
..on previous data, and therefore don't need to waste our time and energy
..engaging in fiction.

That's not called "smart". It's called "prejudiced", which we knew already. So I
guess you don't need to read Shakespeare, after the first play. Of course, he
would just be repeating the same thing....
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
<torll fodder snipped>

I would killfile you, but I find your dirge SO entertaining.
 
> That's what were here for: to discuss mountain biking.

Wrong: It's for you to enforce your beliefs on others. You can't change
the world by forcing others to your way of thinking.
 
Mike Vandeman wrote:

As a president of Rand Corporation has observed, "If you punish the data
enough they will tell you anything."

Pete H

--
Either everyone has rights or some have privileges.
It's really that simple.
Walt Kelly
 
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:31:51 -0500, "di" <[email protected]> wrote:

..
..>
..> That's not called "smart". It's called "prejudiced", which we knew
..already. So I
..> guess you don't need to read Shakespeare, after the first play. Of course,
..he
..> would just be repeating the same thing....
..
..
..Shakespeare you are "not". Prejudiced is forming an opinion of someone
..without knowing them, we know you very well from your posts, rants, and name
..calling, our opinions are based on facts as you yourself have presented them
..time and time again.

Prejudice by any other name.... Just for fun, how about telling us what I say in
that paper, without reading it.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 20:57:19 +0100, "Tetsuo Shima" <[email protected]>
wrote:

..> That's what were here for: to discuss mountain biking.
..
..Wrong: It's for you to enforce your beliefs on others. You can't change
..the world by forcing others to your way of thinking.

And how do I "force" you to my way of thinking? I thought that you all had free
will.... Are you now admitting that you are all robots, unable to think for
yourself?
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 18:07:21 -0400, PMH <[email protected]> wrote:

..Mike Vandeman wrote:
..
..As a president of Rand Corporation has observed, "If you punish the data
..enough they will tell you anything."

That's exactly what the mountain bikers did, in order to "prove" mountain biking
no worse than hiking.

..Pete H

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
Mike Vandeman wrote:
> Prejudice by any other name.... Just for fun, how about telling us
> what I say in that paper, without reading it.


Oooh, this could be fun!

Bill "who first?" S.
 
Dear Mr Vandeman,
It is not approipriate to write an atricle, then use that article as proof
of your position. We all know where you stand, but your baseless assertions
are not proof of anything, except that they may be further proof that you
are a complete nut case.

You cite, again, the bikes cause ruts on trails, I submit that ruts are
caused by feet, any feet, as well as by tires. There are no bikes allowed on
the main trails of the Grand Canyon, yet those trails are rutted as badly as
any trails one might find. The Park Service is required to perform trail
maintenance on the most used trails in order to keep them level, or at least
rut-free. Rutted trails occur as a result of traffic, any traffic not just
bike traffic.

The fact is, bikes (most of them) will prefer to travel on surfaces that are
not prone to rutting in the first place. Soft dirt is difficult to ride on,
hard-pack is the preferred surface. Another fact is that most routes that
bikes travel on are routes left over from other activities that have long
sense gone away. For example, bikes travel on old logging roads and mining
roads, sometimes they will travel on routes left over from the Pony Express
days.

As with any activity, there are those that participate in the activity that
are an embarrassment to everybody else. I will not sit here and defend
behavior that destroys things, but I will sit here and insist that all
behavior is not harmful. For you to suggest that only bike riding is harmful
is simply disenginuous, if not an outright lie.

Now to bring some perspective to the issue. I will generously estimate that
a bike route is 2 feet wide - at the lower points of a bike, the pedals, the
width is considerably less than that. A trail of this width, 2 feet, that is
a mile long takes up less than a quarter acre. If this trail is the only
trail in a square mile, it takes than 0.04% of the habitat. This means that
if the trail was an environmental wasteland across 100% of its length, the
impact would be noticed on only 4 tenths of 1 percent of the habitat. The
truth is that most miles of trail are not any sort of environmental
"problem" for more than about 30 feet, that is for every 5,280 feet of
trail, less than 100 feet has enough damage to warrant concern at all, and
most of that concern can be remedied with normal trail maintenance.

Surely there are more significant environmental concerns for a PhD to be
looking into.

Now, I will take this opportunity to disect your false assertions.



"Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
> A Review of the Literature
> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
> July 3, 2004
>
> "Every recreationist -- whether hiker, biker, horsepacker, or posey

sniffer --
> should not begin by asking, 'What's best for ME?' but rather 'What's best

for
> the bears?'" Tom Butler
> "Will we keep some parts of the American landscape natural and wild and

free --
> or must every acre be easily accessible to people and their toys? .

Mountain
> bikes' impacts on the land are large and getting worse. . The aggressive

push of
> mountain bike organizations to build ever-growing webs of trails poses

serious
> problems of habitat fragmentation, increased erosion, and wildlife

conflicts.
> As interest in extreme riding continues to grow, as trail networks
> burgeon, and as new technology makes it possible for ever-more mountain
> bicyclists to participate, even the most remote wild landscapes may become
> trammeled -- and trampled -- by knobby tires. . The destruction of

wilderness
> and the fragmentation of habitats and ecosystems is death by a thousand

cuts.
> Will introduction of mountain bikes -- and their penetration farther into
> wilderness -- promote additional fragmentation and human conflicts with

the
> natural world? Yes." Brian O'Donnell and Michael Carroll
> "Some things are obvious: mountain bikes do more damage to the land than

hikers.
> To think otherwise ignores the story told by the ground. Although I have

never
> ridden a mountain bike, I am very familiar with their impacts. For the

last
> seven years I have regularly run three to six miles several times a week

on a
> network of trails in the Sandia Mountain foothills two blocks from my

home. .
> These trails receive use from walkers, runners, and mountain bikers; they

are
> closed to motorized vehicles.
> Because I'm clumsy, I keep my eyes on the trail in front of me. I run or
> walk in all seasons, in all kinds of weather. I have watched the growing

erosion
> on these trails from mountain bike use. The basic difference between feet

and
> tires is that tire tracks are continuous and foot tracks are

discontinuous.
> Water finds that narrow, continuous tire tracks are a rill in which to

flow.
> Also, because many mountain bikers are after thrills and speed, their

tires cut
> into the ground. Slamming on the brakes after zooming downhill, sliding

around
> sharp corners, and digging in to go uphill: I see the results of this

behavior
> weekly. .
> I regularly see mountain bikers cutting off cross-country, even on steep
> slopes, for more of a challenge. They seem blind and deaf to the damage

they
> cause. Admittedly, backpackers and horsepackers can cause damage to

wilderness
> trails. But this is a poor argument to suggest that we add another source

of
> damage to those trails." Dave Foreman
>
> "Studies show that bike impacts are similar to those of other

non-motorized
> trail users." Jim Hasenauer (professor of rhetoric and member of the board

of
> directors of the International Mountain Bicyclists Association)
>
> Introduction:
>
> I first became interested in the problem of mountain biking in 1994. I
> had been studying the impacts of the presence of humans on wildlife, and

had
> come to the conclusion that there needs to be habitat that is entirely
> off-limits to humans, in order that wildlife that is sensitive to the

presence
> of humans can survive (see Vandeman, 2000). But what is the best way to

minimize
> the presence of people? Restricting human access is repugnant, and

difficult and
> expensive to accomplish. It occurred to me that the best way to reduce the
> presence and impacts of humans is to restrict the technologies that they

are
> allowed to utilize in nature: e.g. prohibit bicycles and other vehicles

(and
> perhaps even domesticated animals, when used as vehicles).
>


Mike claims to have become interested in the impacts of bikes in 1994. His
sigline says (today), "I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction." Mike has not spent
the "previous" 8 years doing anything. He has been using this sigline since
1992 that I know of.

Mike claims to be against all forms of transportation technologies, yet his
attacks have consitistantly been directed solely towards bicycles.





> Having been a transportation activist for eight years (working on
> stopping highway construction), and having a favorable view of my fellow
> bicyclists as environmentalists, I turned to them to help me campaign to

keep
> bicycles out of natural areas. Was I ever surprised! I discovered that

many
> bicyclists (e.g. many mountain bikers) aren't environmentalists at all,

but are
> simply people who like to bicycle -- in the case of mountain bikers, many

of
> them just use nature, as a kind of playground or outdoor gymnasium! (Of

course,
> there are also hikers, equestrians, and other recreationists who fall into

this
> category.) To my suggestion to keep bikes off of trails in order to

protect
> wildlife, they reacted with hostility! (There is a degree of balkanization

among
> activists, where some transportation activists ignore the needs of

wildlife, and
> some wildlife activists eschew bikes and public transit.)
>


This part is apparently true. I can not dispute the claim he makes here, so
I will accept it. It appears that he did work for 8 years fighting auto
dependence, he has only not worked for the previous 8 years. His 8 years is
at some nebulous period in the past. Since he claims to have become
interested in bikes in 1994, I will assume he worked reduce auto dependence
from 1982 to 1994.

Of course they react with hostility! You are trying to take away an
important recreational activity that has no benefit should it be taken away.
All you will do is take away bikes, you will not protect or preserve
anything. Of course they are hostile towards you.




> In 1994 I attended a public hearing held by the East Bay Municipal
> Utility (water) District to decide whether to allow bikes on their

watershed
> lands. Mountain bikers were there asking for bike access, and the Sierra

Club
> was there to retain the right to hike, while keeping out the bicycles. I

said
> that I had no interest in using the watershed, but that I wanted to ensure

that
> the wildlife are protected -- hence, I asked that bikes not be allowed.
> Afterward, the EBMUD Board of Directors took a field trip to Marin County,

the
> birthplace of mountain biking, to see the effects of mountain biking

there.
> While they were hiking along a narrow trail, a mountain biker came racing

by,
> swearing at them for not getting out of his way fast enough. That helped

them
> decide to ban bikes. Today bikes are still restricted to paved roads, and

EBMUD
> is still one of the public agencies most protective of wildlife.
>


It is astounding to everybody that you use the experience of one instance to
extrapolate that all experiences must be the same. I guess it isn't that
astounding, you caught one bike rider in a lie once, and now all bike riders
are liars. At least you are consistant. (That was not a compliment.)




> It is obvious that mountain biking is harmful to some wildlife and
> people. No one, even mountain bikers, tries to deny that. Bikes create

V-shaped
> ruts in trails, throw dirt to the outside on turns, crush small plants and
> animals on and under the trail, facilitate increased levels of human

access into
> wildlife habitat, and drive other trail users (many of whom are seeking

the
> tranquility and primitiveness of natural surroundings) out of the parks.

Because
> land managers were starting to ban bikes from trails, the mountain bikers
> decided to try to shift the battlefield to science, and try to convince

people
> that mountain biking is no more harmful than hiking. But there are two

problems
> with this approach: (1) it's not true, and (2) it's irrelevant.
>


Nobody disputes that visiting the back country is harmful on some level to
habitat and species. What we dispute is the degree to which you claim the
harm is done, and the solutions you propose to combat the harm. Of course,
there is much disagreement with your tendency to blame all harm on a single
activity.

Have you ever stopped to consider that people clogging the trails drives out
mountain bikers that are simply out to enjoy a peaceful afternoon? Of course
you haven't! Why would you try and make us believe that just because one is
on a bike that the government should look upon that person as somehow being
a second class citizen that can be denied access to public lands? Your
entire thesis is that we can limit access to public lands to one class of
citizen based soely on that citizen's selection of technology. If that
position is true, then we can also limit access to public highways to people
that refuse to adopt your version of correct technology. Of course, we have
limitations to the highways, but those limitations are based on being able
to keep up or not, that is we do not want bikes on the freeway because they
go too slow. Maybe we don't want hikers on the trail because they go too
slow.




> I will examine (1) in a moment. But first, let's look at relevance:
> whether or not hiking (or All Terrain Vehicles or urban sprawl or anything

else)
> is harmful really has no bearing on whether mountain biking is harmful:

they are
> independent questions. Such a comparison would only be relevant if one

were
> committed to allowing only one activity or the other, and wanted to know

which
> is more harmful. In reality, hiking is always allowed, and the question is
> whether to add mountain biking as a permitted activity. In that case, the

only
> relevant question is: Is mountain biking harmful? Of course, it is.

However,
> since many people seem interested in the outcome of the comparison, I will
> examine the research and try to answer it.
 
Jeff Strickland wrote:

{Post is over *50 KBs*, so I'll trim all but the useful parts}

TYVM.

Bill "needs a longer mouse pad" S.
 
"S o r n i" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>
> {Post is over *50 KBs*, so I'll trim all but the useful parts}
>
> TYVM.
>
> Bill "needs a longer mouse pad" S.
>
>

I believe that it is not proper ettiquite to trim from the very first post.
Sorry if I should have trimmed, but I replied to most of what Mike had to
say, so trimming those portions would not have been proper anyway. True, I
should have trimmed the portion to which I did not respond, perhaps this
would have saved a few K on the file size.

Vice President Cheney invoked a phrase last week that seems appropriate here
....
 
Jeff Strickland wrote:
> "S o r n i" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> Jeff Strickland wrote:
>>
>> {Post is over *50 KBs*, so I'll trim all but the useful parts}
>>
>> TYVM.
>>
>> Bill "needs a longer mouse pad" S.
>>

> I believe that it is not proper ettiquite to trim from the very first
> post. Sorry if I should have trimmed, but I replied to most of what
> Mike had to say, so trimming those portions would not have been
> proper anyway. True, I should have trimmed the portion to which I did
> not respond, perhaps this would have saved a few K on the file size.


I wasn't saying YOU should have trimmed, Jeff; I was saying your entire
REPLY was a waste of time and bandwidth.
(When are you going to get it?!? Other than an occasional poke or snicker,
there is absolutely no good reason -- apart from being new -- to engage the
envirowhackoff in dialogue, BECAUSE HE'S INCAPABLE OF IT.)

> Vice President Cheney invoked a phrase last week that seems
> appropriate here ...


Indeed -- but I doubt that you can pronounce the words with MV's hook so
deep in your gullet.

Bill "roll around with the pig if you must, but why make us watch?" S.
 
Mike Vandeman wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 12:31:51 -0500, "di" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> .
> .>
> .> That's not called "smart". It's called "prejudiced", which we knew
> .already. So I
> .> guess you don't need to read Shakespeare, after the first play. Of course,
> .he
> .> would just be repeating the same thing....
> .
> .
> .Shakespeare you are "not". Prejudiced is forming an opinion of someone
> .without knowing them, we know you very well from your posts, rants, and name
> .calling, our opinions are based on facts as you yourself have presented them
> .time and time again.
>
> Prejudice by any other name.... Just for fun, how about telling us what I say in
> that paper, without reading it.


You say, "bah bah goo goo I miss my Mommy! I want my Mommy!"

In a condensed form, anyway.

> ===
> I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
> humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
> years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)
>
> http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
ATV'S, jet skis, dirt bikes---even snowmobiles in the wrong hands. I long
to see kids riding mountain bikes instead of the machines they drive around
the Maine woods and lakes. Motorheads rule where I do most of my recreation.
I could compromise, but most of what is done involves spinning, digging,
do-nuting, and humping. Not very creative, nor appreciative of what we have
here. Very, very destructive.

All you ever go on about is mountain bikes. These are misused too,
sometimes, I know. But where I live they are nothing compared to the
muffler-free motor phenomenon. Sheesh.

Scott
 
Hi Mike,

I'm new to this group and I just have to ask you a few questions. I
apologize to you and the group if these have been answered before:

1. What sort of dwelling do you live in? I'm sure it couldn't have been
built using the type of heavy equipment pictured on your website that
destroys wildlife habitat. Do you live in the woods? Gosh, I hope not; then
you'd be invading wildlife habitat like us evil MTBers.

2. What is your primary means of transportation? Surely a hardcore
environmentalist like you doesn't drive one of those evil automobiles or
ride a bus. A bicycle? I'd never expect you to admit that. Do you walk?
What do you walk on? Surely not paved roads that prevent bears in love from
mating. And of course you don't walk off-road; then you'd be eroding the
soil just like hikers and us evil MTBers.

You're human too pal, and just as guilty as the rest of us.

--
____________________________
TOMMY HOMICIDE
http://www.tommyhomicide.com
 
Tommy H says:

>I'm new to this group and I just have to ask you a few questions. I
>apologize to you and the group if these have been answered before:


<snip rest>

Tommy, it was a brave attempt, but you're not going to want to hold your breath
waiting for an answer longer than "Did you say something?" or "Duh!".

Mike rants aginst us because that's what he does for entertainment. He knows
he can never win, but it's like that really killer video game where you just
can't wait to be able to get past the first locked door, but you know it's
gonna take time figuring it out. ;-)

Steve
 
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 09:52:54 -0700, "Jeff Strickland" <[email protected]> wrote:

..Dear Mr Vandeman,
..It is not approipriate to write an atricle, then use that article as proof
..of your position. We all know where you stand, but your baseless assertions
..are not proof of anything, except that they may be further proof that you
..are a complete nut case.
..
..You cite, again, the bikes cause ruts on trails, I submit that ruts are
..caused by feet, any feet, as well as by tires. There are no bikes allowed on
..the main trails of the Grand Canyon, yet those trails are rutted as badly as
..any trails one might find. The Park Service is required to perform trail
..maintenance on the most used trails in order to keep them level, or at least
..rut-free. Rutted trails occur as a result of traffic, any traffic not just
..bike traffic.
..
..The fact is, bikes (most of them) will prefer to travel on surfaces that are
..not prone to rutting in the first place. Soft dirt is difficult to ride on,
..hard-pack is the preferred surface. Another fact is that most routes that
..bikes travel on are routes left over from other activities that have long
..sense gone away. For example, bikes travel on old logging roads and mining
..roads, sometimes they will travel on routes left over from the Pony Express
..days.
..
..As with any activity, there are those that participate in the activity that
..are an embarrassment to everybody else. I will not sit here and defend
..behavior that destroys things, but I will sit here and insist that all
..behavior is not harmful. For you to suggest that only bike riding is harmful
..is simply disenginuous, if not an outright lie.
..
..Now to bring some perspective to the issue. I will generously estimate that
..a bike route is 2 feet wide - at the lower points of a bike, the pedals, the
..width is considerably less than that. A trail of this width, 2 feet, that is
..a mile long takes up less than a quarter acre. If this trail is the only
..trail in a square mile, it takes than 0.04% of the habitat. This means that
..if the trail was an environmental wasteland across 100% of its length, the
..impact would be noticed on only 4 tenths of 1 percent of the habitat. The
..truth is that most miles of trail are not any sort of environmental
.."problem" for more than about 30 feet, that is for every 5,280 feet of
..trail, less than 100 feet has enough damage to warrant concern at all, and
..most of that concern can be remedied with normal trail maintenance.
..
..Surely there are more significant environmental concerns for a PhD to be
..looking into.
..
..Now, I will take this opportunity to disect your false assertions.
..
..
..
.."Mike Vandeman" <[email protected]> wrote in message
..news:[email protected]...
..> The Impacts of Mountain Biking on Wildlife and People --
..> A Review of the Literature
..> Michael J. Vandeman, Ph.D.
..> July 3, 2004
..>
..> "Every recreationist -- whether hiker, biker, horsepacker, or posey
..sniffer --
..> should not begin by asking, 'What's best for ME?' but rather 'What's best
..for
..> the bears?'" Tom Butler
..> "Will we keep some parts of the American landscape natural and wild and
..free --
..> or must every acre be easily accessible to people and their toys? .
..Mountain
..> bikes' impacts on the land are large and getting worse. . The aggressive
..push of
..> mountain bike organizations to build ever-growing webs of trails poses
..serious
..> problems of habitat fragmentation, increased erosion, and wildlife
..conflicts.
..> As interest in extreme riding continues to grow, as trail networks
..> burgeon, and as new technology makes it possible for ever-more mountain
..> bicyclists to participate, even the most remote wild landscapes may become
..> trammeled -- and trampled -- by knobby tires. . The destruction of
..wilderness
..> and the fragmentation of habitats and ecosystems is death by a thousand
..cuts.
..> Will introduction of mountain bikes -- and their penetration farther into
..> wilderness -- promote additional fragmentation and human conflicts with
..the
..> natural world? Yes." Brian O'Donnell and Michael Carroll
..> "Some things are obvious: mountain bikes do more damage to the land than
..hikers.
..> To think otherwise ignores the story told by the ground. Although I have
..never
..> ridden a mountain bike, I am very familiar with their impacts. For the
..last
..> seven years I have regularly run three to six miles several times a week
..on a
..> network of trails in the Sandia Mountain foothills two blocks from my
..home. .
..> These trails receive use from walkers, runners, and mountain bikers; they
..are
..> closed to motorized vehicles.
..> Because I'm clumsy, I keep my eyes on the trail in front of me. I run or
..> walk in all seasons, in all kinds of weather. I have watched the growing
..erosion
..> on these trails from mountain bike use. The basic difference between feet
..and
..> tires is that tire tracks are continuous and foot tracks are
..discontinuous.
..> Water finds that narrow, continuous tire tracks are a rill in which to
..flow.
..> Also, because many mountain bikers are after thrills and speed, their
..tires cut
..> into the ground. Slamming on the brakes after zooming downhill, sliding
..around
..> sharp corners, and digging in to go uphill: I see the results of this
..behavior
..> weekly. .
..> I regularly see mountain bikers cutting off cross-country, even on steep
..> slopes, for more of a challenge. They seem blind and deaf to the damage
..they
..> cause. Admittedly, backpackers and horsepackers can cause damage to
..wilderness
..> trails. But this is a poor argument to suggest that we add another source
..of
..> damage to those trails." Dave Foreman
..>
..> "Studies show that bike impacts are similar to those of other
..non-motorized
..> trail users." Jim Hasenauer (professor of rhetoric and member of the board
..of
..> directors of the International Mountain Bicyclists Association)
..>
..> Introduction:
..>
..> I first became interested in the problem of mountain biking in 1994. I
..> had been studying the impacts of the presence of humans on wildlife, and
..had
..> come to the conclusion that there needs to be habitat that is entirely
..> off-limits to humans, in order that wildlife that is sensitive to the
..presence
..> of humans can survive (see Vandeman, 2000). But what is the best way to
..minimize
..> the presence of people? Restricting human access is repugnant, and
..difficult and
..> expensive to accomplish. It occurred to me that the best way to reduce the
..> presence and impacts of humans is to restrict the technologies that they
..are
..> allowed to utilize in nature: e.g. prohibit bicycles and other vehicles
..(and
..> perhaps even domesticated animals, when used as vehicles).
..>
..
..Mike claims to have become interested in the impacts of bikes in 1994. His
..sigline says (today), "I spent the previous 8
.. years fighting auto dependence and road construction." Mike has not spent
..the "previous" 8 years doing anything. He has been using this sigline since
..1992 that I know of.
..
..Mike claims to be against all forms of transportation technologies, yet his
..attacks have consitistantly been directed solely towards bicycles.
..
..
..
..
..
..> Having been a transportation activist for eight years (working on
..> stopping highway construction), and having a favorable view of my fellow
..> bicyclists as environmentalists, I turned to them to help me campaign to
..keep
..> bicycles out of natural areas. Was I ever surprised! I discovered that
..many
..> bicyclists (e.g. many mountain bikers) aren't environmentalists at all,
..but are
..> simply people who like to bicycle -- in the case of mountain bikers, many
..of
..> them just use nature, as a kind of playground or outdoor gymnasium! (Of
..course,
..> there are also hikers, equestrians, and other recreationists who fall into
..this
..> category.) To my suggestion to keep bikes off of trails in order to
..protect
..> wildlife, they reacted with hostility! (There is a degree of balkanization
..among
..> activists, where some transportation activists ignore the needs of
..wildlife, and
..> some wildlife activists eschew bikes and public transit.)
..>
..
..This part is apparently true. I can not dispute the claim he makes here, so
..I will accept it. It appears that he did work for 8 years fighting auto
..dependence, he has only not worked for the previous 8 years. His 8 years is
..at some nebulous period in the past. Since he claims to have become
..interested in bikes in 1994, I will assume he worked reduce auto dependence
..from 1982 to 1994.
..
..Of course they react with hostility! You are trying to take away an
..important recreational activity that has no benefit should it be taken away.
..All you will do is take away bikes, you will not protect or preserve
..anything. Of course they are hostile towards you.
..
..
..
..
..> In 1994 I attended a public hearing held by the East Bay Municipal
..> Utility (water) District to decide whether to allow bikes on their
..watershed
..> lands. Mountain bikers were there asking for bike access, and the Sierra
..Club
..> was there to retain the right to hike, while keeping out the bicycles. I
..said
..> that I had no interest in using the watershed, but that I wanted to ensure
..that
..> the wildlife are protected -- hence, I asked that bikes not be allowed.
..> Afterward, the EBMUD Board of Directors took a field trip to Marin County,
..the
..> birthplace of mountain biking, to see the effects of mountain biking
..there.
..> While they were hiking along a narrow trail, a mountain biker came racing
..by,
..> swearing at them for not getting out of his way fast enough. That helped
..them
..> decide to ban bikes. Today bikes are still restricted to paved roads, and
..EBMUD
..> is still one of the public agencies most protective of wildlife.
..>
..
..It is astounding to everybody that you use the experience of one instance to
..extrapolate that all experiences must be the same. I guess it isn't that
..astounding, you caught one bike rider in a lie once, and now all bike riders
..are liars. At least you are consistant. (That was not a compliment.)
..
..
..
..
..> It is obvious that mountain biking is harmful to some wildlife and
..> people. No one, even mountain bikers, tries to deny that. Bikes create
..V-shaped
..> ruts in trails, throw dirt to the outside on turns, crush small plants and
..> animals on and under the trail, facilitate increased levels of human
..access into
..> wildlife habitat, and drive other trail users (many of whom are seeking
..the
..> tranquility and primitiveness of natural surroundings) out of the parks.
..Because
..> land managers were starting to ban bikes from trails, the mountain bikers
..> decided to try to shift the battlefield to science, and try to convince
..people
..> that mountain biking is no more harmful than hiking. But there are two
..problems
..> with this approach: (1) it's not true, and (2) it's irrelevant.
..>
..
..Nobody disputes that visiting the back country is harmful on some level to
..habitat and species. What we dispute is the degree to which you claim the
..harm is done, and the solutions you propose to combat the harm. Of course,
..there is much disagreement with your tendency to blame all harm on a single
..activity.
..
..Have you ever stopped to consider that people clogging the trails drives out
..mountain bikers that are simply out to enjoy a peaceful afternoon? Of course
..you haven't! Why would you try and make us believe that just because one is
..on a bike that the government should look upon that person as somehow being
..a second class citizen that can be denied access to public lands? Your
..entire thesis is that we can limit access to public lands to one class of
..citizen based soely on that citizen's selection of technology. If that
..position is true, then we can also limit access to public highways to people
..that refuse to adopt your version of correct technology. Of course, we have
..limitations to the highways, but those limitations are based on being able
..to keep up or not, that is we do not want bikes on the freeway because they
..go too slow. Maybe we don't want hikers on the trail because they go too
..slow.
..
..
..
..
..> I will examine (1) in a moment. But first, let's look at relevance:
..> whether or not hiking (or All Terrain Vehicles or urban sprawl or anything
..else)
..> is harmful really has no bearing on whether mountain biking is harmful:
..they are
..> independent questions. Such a comparison would only be relevant if one
..were
..> committed to allowing only one activity or the other, and wanted to know
..which
..> is more harmful. In reality, hiking is always allowed, and the question is
 
On Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:27:47 -0400, "Scott L. Hadley" <[email protected]>
wrote:

..ATV'S, jet skis, dirt bikes---even snowmobiles in the wrong hands. I long
..to see kids riding mountain bikes instead of the machines they drive around
..the Maine woods and lakes. Motorheads rule where I do most of my recreation.
..I could compromise, but most of what is done involves spinning, digging,
..do-nuting, and humping. Not very creative, nor appreciative of what we have
..here. Very, very destructive.
..
..All you ever go on about is mountain bikes. These are misused too,
..sometimes, I know. But where I live they are nothing compared to the
..muffler-free motor phenomenon. Sheesh.

So what? They are still the most destructive activity actually allowed in our
parks.

..Scott
..

===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande
 
On Tue, 13 Jul 2004 03:58:04 GMT, Tommy Homicide <[email protected]>
wrote:

..Hi Mike,
..
..I'm new to this group and I just have to ask you a few questions. I
..apologize to you and the group if these have been answered before:
..
..1. What sort of dwelling do you live in? I'm sure it couldn't have been
..built using the type of heavy equipment pictured on your website that
..destroys wildlife habitat. Do you live in the woods? Gosh, I hope not; then
..you'd be invading wildlife habitat like us evil MTBers.
..
..2. What is your primary means of transportation?

Walking.

Surely a hardcore
..environmentalist like you doesn't drive one of those evil automobiles or
..ride a bus. A bicycle? I'd never expect you to admit that.

Yes.

Do you walk?
..What do you walk on?

The ground. What do YOU walk on?

Surely not paved roads that prevent bears in love from
..mating. And of course you don't walk off-road; then you'd be eroding the
..soil just like hikers and us evil MTBers.
..
..You're human too pal, and just as guilty as the rest of us.

Wrong. Be honest! Mountain biking is FASR more destructive than walking.

You didn't say what YOU do, so I have to assume you are being a HYPOCRITE, just
like your MTBer pals.
===
I am working on creating wildlife habitat that is off-limits to
humans ("pure habitat"). Want to help? (I spent the previous 8
years fighting auto dependence and road construction.)

http://home.pacbell.net/mjvande