Senate Oil inquiry, everyone please write

[cfsmtb]

From the Bicycle Federation of Australia list (BFA-oz). If you're concerned about Australia's continuing oil dependence, read below and please make a submission to the current Senate inquiry.

Inquiry into Australia's future oil supply and alternative transport fuels
http://www.aph.gov.au/senate/committee/rrat_ctte/oil_supply/



******

Dear BFA folk,

Senator Christine Milne, initiator of the Senate inquiry, suggested yesterday a 2-page submission at most, as the Senators have to read them, in between other tasks.

My recommendation would be 1-2 page submission, with as many additional references, appendices etc as you feel relevant.

I also ask that everyone in BFA-Oz try to put in a short personal submission, and get other people to do so too.

The main points for individuals are:

(1) put a personal view, you don't need to be an expert on Peak Oil . You can speak as a cyclist, or express concern about your kids' future, your superannuation, or your own future.

(2) many authoritative forecasts suggest "Peak Oil" will happen within 5-10 years, or so. There is a significant probability that this will be correct, and even that global oil production will start its final decline sooner. This need not be debated, it is a statement of fact that there is a range of estimates, and a substantial probability (say 30%) that Peak Oil will have happened by 2010

WA's Planning and Infrastructure Minister, Alannah MacTiernan has said about Peak Oil (in 2004)

" It is also certain that the cost of preparing too early is nowhere near the cost of not being ready on time.". This is particularly obvious, but not discussed.

It will take decades to prepare our cities for Peak Oil and to implement adaptation and mitigation strategies (see Hirsch report, for instance)

Lots of references on website of the Association for the Study of Peak Oil & Gas (Australia)
http://www.ASPO-Australia.org.au Our paper, "Impact of Oil Depletion on Australia" has a number of suggestions for things that can be done.

Robinson, B.W, Fleay, B, Mayo, S.C., (2005) Impact of Oil Depletion on Australia Abstract and powerpoint slides from the ASPO Fourth International Workshop on Oil Depletion, Lisbon 2005.

http://www.aspo-australia.org.au/References/Abstract_Lisbon_Robinson.pdf

http://www.aspo-australia.org.au/PPT/ASPO2005_Robinson.ppt

There is also a paper by Alan Parker on the ASPO-Australia website.
http://www.aspo-australia.org.au//References/Parker/OZoilpaperFinal05.pdf

The "Perverse Policies" which favour car use (including the tarrif concessions to 4WDs are outlined in the paper by Richard Denniss)

Denniss, R (2003) Implementing policies to increase the sustainability of transport in Australia. Proc.‘W.A.: Beyond Oil?’ conference, Perth, February 2003 see www.STCwa.org for more information about this conference.

http://stcwa.org.au/beyondoil/implementing_policies.pdf


Coles and Woolies inflate the grocery bills of battlers and cyclists to pay for the 4c/l fuel discounts for the gas-guzzlers. $100m pa each from Coles and Woolies to those who use the most fuel. We should all ask for 4c in the dollar optional discount instead of the petrol voucher.

Regards,

Bruce

Bruce Robinson
Convenor, ASPO-Australia
Australian Association for the Study of Peak Oil & Gas
http://www.ASPO-Australia.org.au
[email protected]

Sustainable Transport Coalition
2 Barsden St,
Cottesloe WA 6011
Western Australia
61-8-9384-7409 mobile 0427 398 708
http://www.STCwa.org.au

 

[Michael Warner]

On Mon, 13 Feb 2006 16:18:36 +1100, cfsmtb wrote:

> Coles and Woolies inflate the grocery bills of battlers and cyclists to
> pay for the 4c/l fuel discounts for the gas-guzzlers.

I'd like to think that cyclists are unlikely to shop at supermarkets
very much. Unless you're after processed junk, specialist grocers and
markets are much cheaper and of higher quality.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

 

[cfsmtb]

I'd like to think that cyclists are unlikely to shop at supermarkets
very much. Unless you're after processed junk, specialist grocers and
markets are much cheaper and of higher quality.

Attribution aside (Bruce Robinsons words, not mine), you'd like to believe motivated cyclists *would* prefer to support local business & not stupidmarkets. We all get caught short now and again, huh?

In regards to government policy et al, ever felt as if we were collectively banging our heads against a brickwall?

Tonights Four Corners "The Greenhouse Mafia" offered up a few reasons why this maybe occuring.
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/

Online Forum - discussion happening *right* now:
http://www2b.abc.net.au/tmb/Client/MessageList.aspx?b=21&t=2&te=True

Full transcript of Janine Cohen's report "The Greenhouse Mafia":
http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2006/s1568867.htm

 

[TimC]

On 2006-02-13, cfsmtb (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> Full transcript of Janine Cohen's report "The Greenhouse Mafia":
> http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2006/s1568867.htm

Part way through the transcript, and I get reminded just how much
electricity is required in aluminium smelters. Hmmmm. I wonder just
how much more damaging our aluminium bikes are than our steel is real
bikes?


Something to chew on...?

--
TimC
Your fault (core dumped)

 

[dave]

TimC wrote:
> On 2006-02-13, cfsmtb (aka Bruce)
> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>
>>Full transcript of Janine Cohen's report "The Greenhouse Mafia":
>>http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2006/s1568867.htm
>
>
> Part way through the transcript, and I get reminded just how much
> electricity is required in aluminium smelters. Hmmmm. I wonder just
> how much more damaging our aluminium bikes are than our steel is real
> bikes?
>
>
> Something to chew on...?
>
Mines 20 coke cans worth. Kathys is 10. Doesnt seem like a big part of
the problem to me. Most engine blocks would be a few thousand coke cans

Dave

 

[TimC]

On 2006-02-13, dave (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> TimC wrote:
>> On 2006-02-13, cfsmtb (aka Bruce)
>> was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>>
>>>Full transcript of Janine Cohen's report "The Greenhouse Mafia":
>>>http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/content/2006/s1568867.htm
>>
>>
>> Part way through the transcript, and I get reminded just how much
>> electricity is required in aluminium smelters. Hmmmm. I wonder just
>> how much more damaging our aluminium bikes are than our steel is real
>> bikes?

Fully read the transcript now, though. Very disgusting episode, if
true.

A lot of those claims would be very easy to substantiate -- anyone
with access to the journals these guys would have published in (which
would of course be the guys making the allegations), and I'd hope that
they saved all correspondence. Some of the claims sound quite
unbelievable though (the mafia conversation sounds made-up). And in
general, if you are a scientist, don't comment on policy, although the
comments on "meet these targets by then, else bad things will happen"
is clearly not policy and politics -- it is science.

Kevin Hennessy was quite skillful in his wording, without getting
himself in trouble.

It was good watching Sen. Ian Campbell being a politician, and Janine
Cohen handling him well.

>> Something to chew on...?
>>
> Mines 20 coke cans worth. Kathys is 10. Doesnt seem like a big part of
> the problem to me. Most engine blocks would be a few thousand coke cans

That makes me feel happier. You're bike isn't full carbon though, is it?

Did you just go by the weight ratio of the Al in your bike vs the
empty coke can?

--
TimC
Error: Furry Pointer Exception

 

[flyingdutch]

Mines 20 coke cans worth. Kathys is 10. Doesnt seem like a big part of
the problem to me. Most engine blocks would be a few thousand coke cans

Dave

good point, and that doesnt include the chassis/bodywork

isnt the Portland Smelter one of Vic/Oz's biggest power users?

 

[TimC]

On 2006-02-13, flyingdutch (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
>
> dave Wrote:
>>
>> Mines 20 coke cans worth. Kathys is 10. Doesnt seem like a big part
>> of
>> the problem to me. Most engine blocks would be a few thousand coke
>> cans
>>
>> Dave
>
> good point, and that doesnt include the chassis/bodywork
>
> isnt the Portland Smelter one of Vic/Oz's biggest power users?

~ 200 MW.

This summer, Victoria managed to obtain ~500MW reserves in case of hot
weather (remember the California style shenanigans in previous
summers?). They did this by getting ~250MW through the trans-tasman
link (theoretically -- it has been tested, but is not yet fully
operational), and obtaining an agreement from the smelter that they
would shut down operations when requested. Obviously, they'd still
have to use enough electricity to keep the molten Al molten -- you
wouldn't want that to solidify -- it'd take forever to melt again.

--
TimC
Unsubscribing from a mailing list you subscribed to is a basic IQ
test for Internet users. -- Author unknown, seen on the PCR-1000 list

 

[dave]

flyingdutch wrote:
> dave Wrote:
>
>>Mines 20 coke cans worth. Kathys is 10. Doesnt seem like a big part
>>of
>>the problem to me. Most engine blocks would be a few thousand coke
>>cans
>>
>>Dave
>
>
> good point, and that doesnt include the chassis/bodywork
>
> isnt the Portland Smelter one of Vic/Oz's biggest power users?
>
>

Yeah. And they have some sort of sweattheart deal (heh its valentines
day where they basicaly get it for free. Way to go with energy
conservation

Dave

 

[MikeyOz]

flyingdutch wrote:
> dave Wrote:
>
>>Mines 20 coke cans worth. Kathys is 10. Doesnt seem like a big part
>>of
>>the problem to me. Most engine blocks would be a few thousand coke
>>cans
>>
>>Dave
>
>
> good point, and that doesnt include the chassis/bodywork
>
> isnt the Portland Smelter one of Vic/Oz's biggest power users?
>
>

Yeah. And they have some sort of sweattheart deal (heh its valentines
day where they basicaly get it for free. Way to go with energy
conservation

Dave

you have to love how countries like Sweden and another one recently ? have come out and said they will break their oil dependency in the next 15 years.... I hope that makes the oil companies start thinking... apparently they are even building those Wind farms out in the oceans now ?? or at least open water ... so they get all the benefits of the wind farms, plus no body can see them.

make a pretty cool slalom course those big ships as well.

 

[cfsmtb]

Part way through the transcript, and I get reminded just how much
electricity is required in aluminium smelters. Hmmmm. I wonder just
how much more damaging our aluminium bikes are than our steel is real
bikes?

Something to chew on...?

Australia is the worlds biggest exporter of coal - to China. We also export aluminium - to China - who, incidentally is the world's largest consumer of aluminium.

As for the entire sustainable energy debate, we need a carbon-neutral system, but I very much doubt gov and business interests have either the time or motivation to implement such a change in energy production. Regarding sequestion, to my non-scientific analysis it's akin to farting into a pillow. Hey there's lots of tax breaks in it though.

 

[Stuart Lamble]

On 2006-02-13, TimC <[email protected]> wrote:
> Part way through the transcript, and I get reminded just how much
> electricity is required in aluminium smelters.

Oooooh yeah. Bauxite takes a *hell* of a lot of energy to reduce down to
aluminium. It's why the Al companies are willing to pay out so much
money for Al to recycle; it's an order of magnitude or more less energy
to recycle already-processed aluminium than to refine the same amount
from bauxite or other aluminium-rich mineral deposits.

> Hmmmm. I wonder just
> how much more damaging our aluminium bikes are than our steel is real
> bikes?

As has been said, probably not that much. If you ride said Al bike daily
instead of driving, you'll make back the carbon loss very quickly.

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

 

[Theo Bekkers]

Stuart Lamble wrote:

> Oooooh yeah. Bauxite takes a *hell* of a lot of energy to reduce down
> to aluminium. It's why the Al companies are willing to pay out so much
> money for Al to recycle; it's an order of magnitude or more less
> energy
> to recycle already-processed aluminium than to refine the same amount
> from bauxite or other aluminium-rich mineral deposits.

I always thought it was because aluminium cans are made from aluminium and
nothing else, whereas a steel container has to internally coated with
something else (cadmium?) and the top and the bottom are soldered on using
lead and silver. The separation costs are huge.

Theo

 

[Stuart Lamble]

On 2006-02-15, Theo Bekkers <[email protected]> wrote:
> Stuart Lamble wrote:
>> Oooooh yeah. Bauxite takes a *hell* of a lot of energy to reduce down
>> to aluminium. It's why the Al companies are willing to pay out so much
>> money for Al to recycle; it's an order of magnitude or more less
>> energy
>> to recycle already-processed aluminium than to refine the same amount
>> from bauxite or other aluminium-rich mineral deposits.
>
> I always thought it was because aluminium cans are made from aluminium and
> nothing else, whereas a steel container has to internally coated with
> something else (cadmium?) and the top and the bottom are soldered on using
> lead and silver. The separation costs are huge.

That may be so for steel cans, but I don't think that's the driving
factor for the aluminium industry:

Recovery of this metal from scrap (via recycling) has become an
important component of the aluminium industry. Recycling involves
simply melting the metal, which is far less expensive than creating it
from ore.
- Wikipedia

Refining aluminium from ore costs about 15 kWh per kilogram. A
relatively modern smelter might use 13 kWh/kg. To melt aluminium that
has been heated to its melting point (660 degrees celcius) takes around
400 kJ, or about one tenth of a kilowatt hour. To heat aluminium from 10
degrees celcius to 660 degrees celcius requires an additional 650 kJ, or
about a quarter of a kilowatt hour.

ie: recycle a kilo of aluminium: about .35 kWh. Manufacture the same
amount from ore: about 13-15 kWh. That's a hell of a difference.

All the above figures are based upon figures obtained from wikipedia.
Take with a large grain of salt. In particular, my calculation on the
heating from 10 degrees to 660 degrees may well be incorrect, as I do
not understand how heat capacity works; it's probably acceptable as a
first approximation, though.

Or, in short, aluminium is one prime case where the industry has a
vested interest in recycling: it costs them less to produce the metal,
and they can still sell it at the same price, regardless of whether it
was recycled or smelted. I don't know that the same can be said about
steel (for example); probably not, since steel is an alloy, not an
element.

--
My Usenet From: address now expires after two weeks. If you email me, and
the mail bounces, try changing the bit before the "@" to "usenet".

 

[Terry Collins]

Stuart Lamble wrote:

> Or, in short, aluminium is one prime case where the industry has a
> vested interest in recycling: it costs them less to produce the metal,
> and they can still sell it at the same price, regardless of whether it
> was recycled or smelted. I don't know that the same can be said about
> steel (for example); probably not, since steel is an alloy, not an
> element.

Nope, aluminium is as much an alloy as steel is. There are just as many
alloys of aluminium for the welder to worry about as steel and the
results are far worse with aluminium if you get it wrong.

Basically, both tend to trend downwards in quality with recycling anyway.

Last time I recycled some metal, it was $1.13/kg for "domestic"
aluminium (cans, scrap, etc) and $50/ton of scrap steel in ton lots.
So $1,130 vs $50.