Shimano

Simonb said:

Why do people knock Shimano? What's the deal?

The stuff doesn't last that well in hard use (apparently - I've never worn anything of theirs out)
and some of their innovations have been technically dubious - large pedal threads, Biopace, very low
stack height headsets etc. I suppose they're the cycling equivalent of Microsoft in that they are so
big they can create their own standards that aren't compatible with everyone else's - like disc
brake mounts.

Roger

Zog The Undeniable said:

I suppose they're the cycling equivalent of Microsoft in that they are so big they can create
their own standards that aren't compatible with everyone else's - like disc brake mounts.

Does this mean that Campagnolo parts a compatible with pretty much anything?

Simonb

"Zog The Undeniable" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Re Shimano:

Quoted message said:

I suppose they're the cycling equivalent of Microsoft in that they are so big they can create
their own standards that aren't compatible with everyone else's - like disc brake mounts.

In all fairness many small mtb component manufacturers make odd-ball kit, surely that's what
technological advancement is about. Shimano are staid developmentwise by comparison but when they do
do something innovative it does create a standard purely because of the market weight they carry.

Pete

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why do people knock Shimano? What's the deal?

The stuff doesn't last that well in hard use (apparently - I've never worn anything of theirs out)
and some of their innovations have been technically dubious - large pedal threads, Biopace, very
low stack height headsets etc. I suppose they're the cycling equivalent of Microsoft in that they
are so big they can create their own standards that aren't compatible with everyone else's - like
disc brake mounts.

Roger

They probably are like Microsoft in that respect but I don't think it's all a bad thing. When your
typical rider goes into a shop to buy a new bike he can 'value' a bike based on what components it
has. So for example one bike may cost the same as another but have XT instead of LX components. It
makes the issue less confusing, possibly.

Maybe they're a bit boring too. Perhaps nothing of theirs is brilliant but nothing is that bad
either. Quality control also seems to be pretty consistent.

Anyway, I'd like to try a Rohloff next but I'm not slating Shimano. I just want something different
for a change.

Simonb said:

Zog The Undeniable said:

I suppose they're the cycling equivalent of Microsoft in that they are so big they can create
their own standards that aren't compatible with everyone else's - like disc brake mounts.

Does this mean that Campagnolo parts a compatible with pretty much anything?

They set a lot of their own standards that were later adopted by others
- such as the 1" headset, the gear lever boss and the rear mech thread. But they haven't done some
of the weird stuff Shimano have.

Simonb said:

Why do people knock Shimano? What's the deal?

Confusedly, Simonb

I don't really know, I have used Shimano since they released the first indexed gear system and have
pretty much stuck with them so I can switch components around my bikes. Some folk say Campag wears
in, Shimano wears out,

"Simonb" <sbennettatwiderworlddotcodotuk> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why do people knock Shimano? What's the deal?

Confusedly, Simonb

I guess it's the old religious argument; Shimano vs Campagnolo, PC vs Macintosh, Amiga vs Atari ST,
etc; nobody would want to admit that their equipment is not the best, so they take all opportunities
to prove that their decision was correct.

My bike has Shimano on, simply because it has. Couldn't tell you the names of the bits, but I
do know that the bike wouldn't go any faster with Campag on, simply because it would still be
me on top!

Regards,

Pete.

[email hidden] schreef ...

Quoted message said:

They set a lot of their own standards that were later adopted by others
- such as the 1" headset, the gear lever boss and the rear mech thread. But they haven't done some
of the weird stuff Shimano have.

You've never seen their Off-road group, have you?

--
Regards, Marten

Andy Koppe said:

They've got a (near) monopoly, which at least in the long run is never a good thing for consumers.

Its only a near monopoly through customer choice. There is SRAM and Campag as "mass market"
alternative suppliers and plenty of niche suppliers for most all products Shimano make. Its just
that more Shimano stuff is bought than anyone elses. I would also venture to suggest that it is the
competition that Shimano present that keeps Campag and SRAM on their toes in terms of product
development, quality and pricing and vice versa.

Tony

--
"If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." Mark Twain

ouch <> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why do people knock Shimano? What's the deal?

Quoted message said:

Anyway, I'd like to try a Rohloff next but I'm not slating Shimano. I just want something
different for a change.

Yeah, I'd like a Speedhub alright, but I think I'll have to wait until the 12-speed Shimano comes
out. It's a cost thing...

Andy Koppe said:

Once you have sufficient market domination and brand recognition, it doesn't matter much whether
you got your monopoly through customer choice, a royal charter, or whatever.

Most customers will never have heard of anything but Shimano and won't accept anything else
without a very good reason. No chance with a similar product at the same price. A competitor will
have to be significantly cheaper or offer signigicantly better functionality, leaving lots of room
for the monopolist to cream off the profits.

Many companies have learnt the hard way the folly of believing that.

Tony

--
"If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything." Mark Twain

Simon Brooke said:

[Campagnolo off road groups]

They do/did one? Where? Where?

Too late! See andysbikes.comindex.htmlOpen ↗ for a list of components and
some pictures.

Guenther

Marten Hoffmann said:

[email hidden] schreef ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[Campagnolo off road groups]

And don't tell me this stuff isn't weird. This was designed for people with size 11 hands ;-)

Might be so. But I like the crankarms and the Cantilever brakes. It seems to be quite hard to get
this kind of polished compoments for mountain bikes or low geared tourers today.

Guenther

In article <[email hidden]>, Simonb
<sbennettatwiderworlddotcodotuk@?.?> writes

Quoted message said:

Why do people knock Shimano? What's the deal?

Because Shimano components are very widely used, cost effective, and totally adequate for what the
vast majority of cyclists are ever going to do with their bikes?

For those who delight in being different, that's totally unacceptable...

--
Roger Barker [email hidden] Boston, UK

Marten Hoffmann said:

[email hidden] schreef ...

Quoted message said:

They set a lot of their own standards that were later adopted by others
- such as the 1" headset, the gear lever boss and the rear mech thread. But they haven't done
some of the weird stuff Shimano have.

You've never seen their Off-road group, have you?

They do/did one? Where? Where?

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) jasmine.org.uk~simonOpen ↗

;; I'll have a proper rant later, when I get the time.

Simonb' sbennettatwiderworlddotcodotuk said:

Why do people knock Shimano? What's the deal?

They've got a (near) monopoly, which at least in the long run is never a good thing for consumers.

Andy

Tony Raven said:

Andy Koppe said:

They've got a (near) monopoly, which at least in the long run is never a good thing for
consumers.

Its only a near monopoly through customer choice.

Once you have sufficient market domination and brand recognition, it doesn't matter much whether you
got your monopoly through customer choice, a royal charter, or whatever.

Most customers will never have heard of anything but Shimano and won't accept anything else without
a very good reason. No chance with a similar product at the same price. A competitor will have to be
significantly cheaper or offer signigicantly better functionality, leaving lots of room for the
monopolist to cream off the profits.

Quoted message said:

There is SRAM and Campag as "mass market" alternative suppliers and plenty of niche suppliers for
most all products Shimano make. Its just that more Shimano stuff is bought than anyone elses.

Well, the same is true for Microsoft. There's Apple and there's Linux, and many would argue that
they are technically better or cheaper. Still most buyers won't even consider them as serious
alternatives.

Quoted message said:

I would also venture to suggest that it is the competition that Shimano present that keeps Campag
and SRAM on their toes in terms of product development, quality and pricing and vice versa.

I'd see it the other way around, without those little niggles Shimano could charge even more and
develop less.

Andy

[email hidden] schreef ...

Quoted message said:

Andy Koppe said:

They've got a (near) monopoly, which at least in the long run is never a good thing for
consumers.

Its only a near monopoly through customer choice. There is SRAM and Campag as "mass market"
alternative suppliers and plenty of niche suppliers for most all products Shimano make. Its just
that more Shimano stuff is bought than anyone elses.

And they keep the prices at interesting levels for the bicycle manufacturers, thus creating an
enormous "customer base" when replacement time comes.

Quoted message said:

I would also venture to suggest that it is the competition that Shimano present that keeps Campag
and SRAM on their toes in terms of product development, quality and pricing and vice versa.

Agree on that one. There are undoubtedly a lot of bad things to tell about Shimano but not that
they're lazy in the development department. Quite the opposite, sometimes!

--
Regards, Marten

Andy Koppe said:

Well, the same is true for Microsoft. There's Apple and there's Linux, and many would argue that
they are technically better or cheaper. Still most buyers won't even consider them as serious
alternatives.

Not the same at all. Most people just want to know how many gears and/or if they're hubs or
derailleurs. And unlike your computer OS, it makes no real difference in use for A Typical Cyclist
if he's using Shimano or SRAM or whatever. You don't have to worry about your network server or file
formats being incompatible and buggering everything up if you get another bike with a SRAM hub next
to your Shimano derailleur.

Quoted message said:

I'd see it the other way around, without those little niggles Shimano could charge even more and
develop less.

That sentence implies that Shimano aren't too interested in development, where they've really helped
the industry move forwards by leaps and bound over the last 15 years. It also implies they're
overcharging horribly, where the simple fact is that a gear system now costs less, does more and
works better than it ever used to.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗