Sitting in, whats the rule?

zaskar said:

..... then comes the finish, the guy who sat in wins. did he win fairly? i think it's a Wuss way to win, i don't think he deserves it. how does the group deal with the lazy wheel sucker? ...

The whole game in road racing is to ride smart and play to your strengths. I've seen many a strong rider pull and pull and pull... only to get dusted near the end or in the sprint. A long time ago the national team used to do their winter training near Fresno, California where I was riding and racing for the collegiate team. We got invited along on some training rides and I remember Eddie B's comment about one of our stronger riders who just didn't feel right anywhere but out front pulling the whole group: "strong like a bull.....smart like a bull"

On the other hand I've seen strong climbers sitting in way too much on the hills (their strength) and getting dusted in a field sprint. I'm a sprinter, I rode a lot of track and learned how to jump. I'll work to keep a small break going because it's better to sprint against a small group then to take chances in the pack. I'll attack and pull if I think it will split the group or try to bridge if I think a small group is going to get away and stay away. And I'll pull as much as necessary to hold a position near the front, especially in a tight crit where dropping back is bad news with the accordian effect. But pulling out of some sense of honor or fair play, no way! If I don't see a direct benefit in doing work during a race I don't do it!

A group ride, a friendly century ride, that's a different story but when you line up at a sanctioned race your only obligation is to ride by the rules not to uphold some unspoken code of toughness. If your strength is pulling hard for the duration then find a way to get clear and pull to your heart's content. But pulling the entire peloton out of a sense of duty (or worse, pulling the entire peloton up to a breakaway with one or more of your team mates in it, don't laugh it seems to happen every weekend in the lower categories) is just plain bad strategy. Figure out your strengths and figure out how to get the most out of them.

Watch some classic pro race videos. Keep an eye on the team leaders or the top GC riders in a tour. If they're at the front then they see a direct benefit to their actions. They never pull just to keep the peloton rolling along and if a strong rider finds a sprinter on his wheel in the final kilometers they usually try to shake him through team work, through short attacks or just by setting a blistering pace. If that doesn't work then they just do their best to outsprint him which happens more than you'd think since sprinters are often pretty cooked at the end of a long road race.

daveryanwyoming said:

The whole game in road racing is to ride smart and play to your strengths. I've seen many a strong rider pull and pull and pull... only to get dusted near the end or in the sprint. A long time ago the national team used to do their winter training near Fresno, California where I was riding and racing for the collegiate team. We got invited along on some training rides and I remember Eddie B's comment about one of our stronger riders who just didn't feel right anywhere but out front pulling the whole group: "strong like a bull.....smart like a bull"

.

I should have said no team tactics, amateur or pro races. i just race cat3 and unattached like most others i race against. the RRs are 3-5 hours long. the scenario would be 5-10 man break all unattached and "everyone" working together on a flattish course to make the break stick. you have a rider not taking turns on the front. after a few hours of this rider sitting in gets irritating, especially when he responds to all the attacks. he may win the race because the other riders pulled him to the line. if he wants to win i think he should work in the effort till the play out. i think its just bad race etiquette.

As I see it, the "rules" are this:

1) cycling is a non-contact sport (well, on the road anyway), and

2) the goal is to be the first one across the finish line (or to help a teammate achieve this goal).

Note that the above comments come from someone who has never outsprinted more than one other person at a time, but who has also been known to tell wheelsuckers to do their share or I would "tear their f'ing legs off!!"...

zaskar said:

... the scenario would be 5-10 man break all unattached and "everyone" working together on a flattish course to make the break stick. you have a rider not taking turns on the front. after a few hours of this rider sitting in gets irritating, especially when he responds to all the attacks. he may win the race because the other riders pulled him to the line.

Yep, that's a tough situation with no team mates and a fit wheelsucker. If there's less than five in the break then you'd better do your share or the break will probably fail, 6 to 8 and you're in the gray zone, 10 or more and now you've got the race within the race. On a flat course with 9 or 10 strong riders and a decent gap you'll probably stay away. So now the question is what's your best tactics given this situation? Should you expend physical and mental energy on the wheelsucker by gapping him, attacking or otherwise targeting him? Is that in your best interest or is it a distraction from your goal of a high placing? If the majority of the break feels like you, it makes sense to take turns gapping him and forcing him to respond, if he can counter your best efforts then maybe he's got the power and you've just got to deal with it. Maybe you should be thinking of getting on his wheel in the final miles given that he's probably going to unleash a big sprint. I understand your frustration, but I don't see it as all that different than the aneorexic whippet that sits in for the headwind stretches and then disappears on the climbs using their superior power to weight. They're just playing to their strengths and it comes with the territory.

Quoted post said:

if he wants to win i think he should work in the effort till the play out. i think its just bad race etiquette.

Now you're assigning your sense of righteousness and fair play to someone else's race game. Point to the page in the rule book that discusses equal share of the work in a road race. You won't find it since it's neither regulated nor expected. Tactics should be chosen to emphasize your particular skills, especially as a freelance rider. If you are really bothered by folks sitting in to exploit their strengths then stick to time trials.

You can rail against this and claim foul play or you can accept that it's all part of the road racing game. It's certainly not illegal to sit in and it may bug you but it's how this game is played. A smart wheelsucker will do just enough work to avoid attracting too much attention but again that's determined by their assesment of the other riders in the break and a decision to do some work to avoid the gapping and attacks that are otherwise likely. It's still not done out of some code of honor it's done to maximize your chances of winning. If someone gets the reputation of never doing work in a break things will get rough in subsequent weeks so it pays to do just enough to avoid a reputation. If they're really fit enough to fend off all the efforts to drop them then they're probably destined for an upgrade soon and they may find their approach less sucessful in a higher category.

Life aint fair and neither is mass start road racing. You can either come to terms with this and figure out how to make it play to your strengths or you can be real frustrated and waste precious energy on something you can't control.

Good luck,
Dave

zaskar said:

after a few hours of this rider sitting in gets irritating, especially when he responds to all the attacks.

If he responds to all the attacks, then it's only a matter of time until he can no longer respond and some others in the group go clear. There are ways to deal with this type of rider, but I agree with DaveRyanWyoming that everyone's out there to race their own race. Some are waiting for the big climb, some for the solo break, others for the big sprint, others are working for a teammate, etc. You can't expect everyone to race the way you'd like them to, because we don't all have the same strengths.

Just my $.02.

You race to win...NOTHING ELSE! Sitting in and sucking wheels helps you win.

These glorified training rides (club races) are a different matter...they are only cheating themselves by not working hard.

My advice: When the big race comes around do what you can to stay clean, dont [censored] your competition (still workturns) but also do as little as possible whenever you need to rest and save energy.

Road cycling is a game of chess as well as EGO and brute power but ultimately a WIN is a WIN!

[QUOTE=did he win fairly? i think it's a Wuss way to win, i don't think he deserves it. [/QUOTE]An experienced racers dream - somebody that kills themselves all day long showing everyone that they are a "fair" racer. Cycling is a zero sum game. Everyone has a finite amount of physical ability to use in a race. The more you use, the less you have. The more I make you use, the more I have available. 🙂 I get a kick out of how many guys are intimidated into taking a pull, riding harder, bury themselves on climb, etc only to watch them be dropped or smoked at the line. The key is to race your race. Figure that out and you'll do well. Otherwise there's always AYSO soccer where everyone is a winner... 🙄

acoggan said:

As I see it, the "rules" are this:

1) cycling is a non-contact sport (well, on the road anyway), and
...

IMHO only when the commies aren't watching.

acoggan said:

1) cycling is a non-contact sport (well, on the road anyway), and

Save for the occasional jersey/hip slings, bumping, leaning, kneeing, and even the odd punch or two, that is. Makes life in the peleton interesting. :eek:

zaskar said:

you have a rider not taking turns on the front.

I just thought of something: What if this rider had the enviable position of being charged with 'controlling the break' while a sprinter or GC-leading teammate remained behind in the peloton? Like Hincapie during that late stage of the '05 TdF? What a great spot to be in that would be! "Sorry guys, I'd love to help, but if you want this break to succeed you're going to have to do it yourselves." 😄

zaskar said:

What is the rule of sitting in, in a Road Race? my belief is everyone in the pack should take a fair turn at the front, as long as pack is not to big.

This really depends on whether the group you are part of has a reason to go hard (e.g., they are the break or they are chasing a break). In that case, I agree with Andy C: tell them to do their share or they are going to get some road rash. But, I have been in races when the group in front had nobody to chase down. I sat in such a race last year for the whole race and then won the sprint. I overheard a guy talking about the race afterwards, basically badmouthing me for sitting in. I went up to the guy and talked with him. I said, "There was nobody to chase down. The guy who goes to the front in that situation wants to push the pace for his own selfish reasons -- he wants to wear down others because he feels that is in his best interest. I had no reason to push the pace because I was confident in my sprint. So, I had no reason to go to the front." He ended up agreeing with me and apologized for his remarks. We're now good friends.

frenchyge said:

I just thought of something: What if this rider had the enviable position of being charged with 'controlling the break' while a sprinter or GC-leading teammate remained behind in the peloton? Like Hincapie during that late stage of the '05 TdF? What a great spot to be in that would be! "Sorry guys, I'd love to help, but if you want this break to succeed you're going to have to do it yourselves." 😄

Yea i remember that. i forget the rider Hincapi was with, i guess he was [censored] about Hincapies win by way of wheel suck. next day, that rider goes out on a break and wins the same way Hincapie did. i see nothing wrong with that, that is racing i get your point. but on the little small time level i think sportsman ship plays a roll. as OP said, work as little as you can so you don't stand out. but to be in a break with no team situation and totally refuse to take turns is rude IMO. i have heard stories of this type of rider getting knocked off his bike locally. i only ran into this situation once, and if it happins again no big deal, wheel sucking for hours is racing i guess.

zaskar said:

...wheel sucking for hours is racing i guess.

Well, more accurately, it's 1 guy racing and the other guys being chumps, unless they're content to work all day for 2nd place and down. Those other guys have to learn to race, too, and racing doesn't mean carrying a sprinter to the line to let him beat you. Sometimes breaks have to go back into the peloton to try again, and other times they need to split up until everyone who's left is willing to work.

zaskar said:

I should have said no team tactics, amateur or pro races. i just race cat3 and unattached like most others i race against. the RRs are 3-5 hours long. the scenario would be 5-10 man break all unattached and "everyone" working together on a flattish course to make the break stick. you have a rider not taking turns on the front. after a few hours of this rider sitting in gets irritating, especially when he responds to all the attacks. he may win the race because the other riders pulled him to the line. if he wants to win i think he should work in the effort till the play out. i think its just bad race etiquette.

wow, you guys have 5 hr RRs in the Cat 3's in AZ huh. sounds brutal, what do you cover like 120 miles in that time span?

acoggan said:

... but who has also been known to tell wheelsuckers to do their share or I would "tear their f'ing legs off!!"...

I don't suppose you've heard of a famous Aussie character by the name of Aunty Jack?

daveryanwyoming said:

Should you expend physical and mental energy on the wheelsucker by gapping him, attacking or otherwise targeting him?
Dave

Trying to get 3 or 4 guys to take turns gapping someone off never seems to materialise.

The only success, that I have been part of, is one guy (stronger than me) attacked about 5 times in rapid succession and the "targetted rider" blew-up, I came around the sprinter and dragged the guy that had done all the work to open up the break.

That was a great feeling.

Now, if we could only get another 4-5 guys to come with us, we might be able to make the break stick!

zaskar said:

What is the rule of sitting in, in a Road Race? my belief is everyone in the pack should take a fair turn at the front, as long as pack is not to big. i hear other riders time and time again, just sit in don't work till you have to go for the sprint.
say there is a 10 man break and a rider or two does no work. then comes the finish, the guy who sat in wins. did he win fairly? i think it's a Wuss way to win, i don't think he deserves it. how does the group deal with the lazy wheel sucker? maybe my thoughts on this are out of line, inlighten me.

If one person doesn't work and you have a good gap, stop working, yell at everyone else to stop working, then turn around and tell him, loudly so everyone hears, if he doesn't do any work he'll be backed off by everyone in the group or you'll just sit up and let it go back. You have to be assertive to get your way in a bike race. Your threat needs to be credible though - you don't want to be the guy that is just happy to be there and will do everything to make it stick. That guy always works too hard. Try to get in the break with him, don't be him.

Alex Simmons said:

I don't suppose you've heard of a famous Aussie character by the name of Aunty Jack?

No - do tell!

RapDaddyo said:

This really depends on whether the group you are part of has a reason to go hard (e.g., they are the break or they are chasing a break). In that case, I agree with Andy C: tell them to do their share or they are going to get some road rash.

Actually, by "tear their f'ing legs off!!" I meant repeatedly attacking the break - given that my BMI is only ~20, I don't seem to get very far with threats of actual physical violence. 😉