Specialized tubes -- more stem failures

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! And therein lies the problem, because the now-loose nut
is buzzing, so you crank it down to get rid of the noise. The
problem isn't caused by the initial tightening; sorry if that's
how it came across. They may actually be useful initially (during
pumping), and I suggest to customers they can use them at that
time, and then remove them so they don't buzz.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What? Buzzing? In all the years of riding with stem nuts on
Presta valves, I haven't heard a sound from them, even at brisk
speed in the silence of a tailwind. Besides, the next time I pump
that tire on the road, I want the nut to be in place on the stem of
the replacement tube. There is no reason to throw the nut away
other than tossing it over the appropriate shoulder to prevent
attack by vampires.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is what the whole stem nut story is about, myth and lore.

Quoted message said:

Oh my. Myth & lore? Doesn't hold water in this case. This isn't
hard to test; you can demonstrate it very easily. Just put a valve
nut onto a stem and bounce it lightly on the ground. If your ears
can't hear it, I'd be quite surprised. And you'd obviously be
*very* surprised at the number of customers we have who bring in
their bikes for mystery noises which turn out to be one... valve
nuts buzzing.

Oh! I'm sorry. I didn't know you were talking about basketball.

Quoted message said:

Anyone doubting this should try the experiment themselves.

....and you can hear a buzzing sound from that nut while riding? I
don't believe it. The nut is held radially in its threads snugly by
centrifugal force even if it isn't tightened against the rim.

Jobst Brandt

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! And therein lies the problem, because the now-loose nut is
buzzing, so you crank it down to get rid of the noise. The problem
isn't caused by the initial tightening; sorry if that's how it came
across. They may actually be useful initially (during pumping), and
I suggest to customers they can use them at that time, and then
remove them so they don't buzz.

What? Buzzing? In all the years of riding with stem nuts on Presta
valves, I haven't heard a sound from them, even at brisk speed in the
silence of a tailwind. Besides, the next time I pump that tire on the
road, I want the nut to be in place on the stem of the replacement
tube. There is no reason to throw the nut away other than tossing it
over the appropriate shoulder to prevent attack by vampires.

That is what the whole stem nut story is about, myth and lore.

Oh my. Myth & lore? Doesn't hold water in this case. This isn't hard to
test; you can demonstrate it very easily. Just put a valve nut onto a stem
and bounce it lightly on the ground. If your ears can't hear it, I'd be
quite surprised. And you'd obviously be *very* surprised at the number of
customers we have who bring in their bikes for mystery noises which turn out
to be one... valve nuts buzzing.

Anyone doubting this should try the experiment themselves.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Dear Mike,

In between greedy children begging for candy, I tried your experiment,
wondering if you were insane.

Nope.

With the valve stem horizontal and the valve stem nut loose, my rear
wheel gave a small but noticeable buzz or rattle when bounced off a
concrete floor about three inches.

When I tightened the valve stem nut, the noise vanished.

It might make less or only intermittent noise when the wheel is
whirling around and just hitting bumps, but there's no question that
the noise is there.

And hard-to-find little noises are the hobgoblins of many minds on
RBT, both large and small.

Now to look into why the tire lost 20 psi in a few days. Surely it
can't be goathead punctures mostly sealed by Slime.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

> EXACTLY! And therein lies the problem, because the now-loose nut
> is buzzing, so you crank it down to get rid of the noise. The
> problem isn't caused by the initial tightening; sorry if that's
> how it came across. They may actually be useful initially (during
> pumping), and I suggest to customers they can use them at that
> time, and then remove them so they don't buzz.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What? Buzzing? In all the years of riding with stem nuts on
Presta valves, I haven't heard a sound from them, even at brisk
speed in the silence of a tailwind. Besides, the next time I pump
that tire on the road, I want the nut to be in place on the stem of
the replacement tube. There is no reason to throw the nut away
other than tossing it over the appropriate shoulder to prevent
attack by vampires.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is what the whole stem nut story is about, myth and lore.

Quoted message said:

Oh my. Myth & lore? Doesn't hold water in this case. This isn't
hard to test; you can demonstrate it very easily. Just put a valve
nut onto a stem and bounce it lightly on the ground. If your ears
can't hear it, I'd be quite surprised. And you'd obviously be
*very* surprised at the number of customers we have who bring in
their bikes for mystery noises which turn out to be one... valve
nuts buzzing.

Oh! I'm sorry. I didn't know you were talking about basketball.

Quoted message said:

Anyone doubting this should try the experiment themselves.

...and you can hear a buzzing sound from that nut while riding? I
don't believe it. The nut is held radially in its threads snugly by
centrifugal force even if it isn't tightened against the rim.

Jobst Brandt

While I agree that there is no problem caused by valve nuts, I don't
think they are necessary or a great advantage for on-road tire pumping.
It takes no effort to apply pressure through the flat or low pressure
tire with one hand while pressing the head of the pump onto the valve
with the other. One less bit. No problem. If your pump head won't
stay on I'd get another version.

Robin Hubert

"Robin Hubert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

>> EXACTLY! And therein lies the problem, because the now-loose nut
>> is buzzing, so you crank it down to get rid of the noise.

This can cause a problem; after a flat on the road, the nut may now be very
tight, and quite difficult to remove.
Kerry

Jobst Brandt said:

What? Buzzing? In all the years of riding with stem nuts on Presta
valves, I haven't heard a sound from them, even at brisk speed in the
silence of a tailwind. Besides, the next time I pump that tire on the
road, I want the nut to be in place on the stem of the replacement
tube.

Removing the nuts will increase your climbing speed by
0.0000000014597834%!

Quoted message said:

There is no reason to throw the nut away other than tossing it
over the appropriate shoulder to prevent attack by vampires.

Forget about vampires - the real danger while riding is RECUMBENT
BICYCLE EVANGELISTS! 😉

Quoted message said:

That is what the whole stem nut story is about, myth and lore.

This whole discussion is just plain nuts!

--
Tom Sherman - Here, not there.
I am supporting cannibalism by eating more nuts.

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

> EXACTLY! And therein lies the problem, because the now-loose nut is
> buzzing, so you crank it down to get rid of the noise. The problem
> isn't caused by the initial tightening; sorry if that's how it came
> across. They may actually be useful initially (during pumping), and
> I suggest to customers they can use them at that time, and then
> remove them so they don't buzz.

What? Buzzing? In all the years of riding with stem nuts on Presta
valves, I haven't heard a sound from them, even at brisk speed in the
silence of a tailwind. Besides, the next time I pump that tire on the
road, I want the nut to be in place on the stem of the replacement
tube. There is no reason to throw the nut away other than tossing it
over the appropriate shoulder to prevent attack by vampires.

That is what the whole stem nut story is about, myth and lore.

Oh my. Myth & lore? Doesn't hold water in this case. This isn't hard to
test; you can demonstrate it very easily. Just put a valve nut onto a stem
and bounce it lightly on the ground. If your ears can't hear it, I'd be
quite surprised. And you'd obviously be *very* surprised at the number of
customers we have who bring in their bikes for mystery noises which turn out
to be one... valve nuts buzzing.

Anyone doubting this should try the experiment themselves.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

Dear Mike,

In between greedy children begging for candy, I tried your experiment,
wondering if you were insane.

Nope.

With the valve stem horizontal and the valve stem nut loose, my rear
wheel gave a small but noticeable buzz or rattle when bounced off a
concrete floor about three inches.

When I tightened the valve stem nut, the noise vanished.

It might make less or only intermittent noise when the wheel is
whirling around and just hitting bumps, but there's no question that
the noise is there.

And hard-to-find little noises are the hobgoblins of many minds on
RBT, both large and small.

Now to look into why the tire lost 20 psi in a few days. Surely it
can't be goathead punctures mostly sealed by Slime.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Drat! Goathead puncture, mostly sealed by Slime.

CF

jobst.brandt said:

How do you know the tube you are riding has a failsafe stem.

Experience. I've not had failures with certain brands, nor has anyone I
know.

Quoted message said:

Besides,
why throw and otherwise good tube away if all you need to do is insert a
stem that you can get from any bicycle shop that has tubular users.

Wouldn't it be great if most shops actually stocked parts like this? If
they did, they'd probably charge as much as for a whole new tube anyway.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is possible but it's not my job to make sure a shop's inventory is
up to date with non-defective merchandise.

Quoted message said:

Or your own inventory of tubes on your shelf or in your reserve pocket.

Agreed. As of yesterday it's been changed. As I already said, I relied
on the known-troublesome ones against my better judgment.

This is a good point about being responsible for one's equipment though.

Matt O.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Oh my. Myth & lore? Doesn't hold water in this case. This isn't
hard to test; you can demonstrate it very easily. Just put a valve
nut onto a stem and bounce it lightly on the ground. If your ears
can't hear it, I'd be quite surprised. And you'd obviously be
*very* surprised at the number of customers we have who bring in
their bikes for mystery noises which turn out to be one... valve
nuts buzzing.

Oh! I'm sorry. I didn't know you were talking about basketball.

You've lost me on that one.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anyone doubting this should try the experiment themselves.

...and you can hear a buzzing sound from that nut while riding? I
don't believe it. The nut is held radially in its threads snugly by
centrifugal force even if it isn't tightened against the rim.

Yes, you can hear it while riding. No kidding. You can argue centrifugal
force, and I can argue what I can observe, both using the bounce test and by
riding it. I'll go for observed phenomenon over theories that centrifugal
force is strong enough to force the nut firmly enough against the threads to
immobilize it.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

> EXACTLY! And therein lies the problem, because the now-loose nut
> is buzzing, so you crank it down to get rid of the noise. The
> problem isn't caused by the initial tightening; sorry if that's
> how it came across. They may actually be useful initially (during
> pumping), and I suggest to customers they can use them at that
> time, and then remove them so they don't buzz.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What? Buzzing? In all the years of riding with stem nuts on
Presta valves, I haven't heard a sound from them, even at brisk
speed in the silence of a tailwind. Besides, the next time I pump
that tire on the road, I want the nut to be in place on the stem of
the replacement tube. There is no reason to throw the nut away
other than tossing it over the appropriate shoulder to prevent
attack by vampires.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That is what the whole stem nut story is about, myth and lore.

Quoted message said:

Oh my. Myth & lore? Doesn't hold water in this case. This isn't
hard to test; you can demonstrate it very easily. Just put a valve
nut onto a stem and bounce it lightly on the ground. If your ears
can't hear it, I'd be quite surprised. And you'd obviously be
*very* surprised at the number of customers we have who bring in
their bikes for mystery noises which turn out to be one... valve
nuts buzzing.

Oh! I'm sorry. I didn't know you were talking about basketball.

Quoted message said:

Anyone doubting this should try the experiment themselves.

...and you can hear a buzzing sound from that nut while riding? I
don't believe it. The nut is held radially in its threads snugly by
centrifugal force even if it isn't tightened against the rim.

Jobst Brandt

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

The claim that screwing the knurled nut down snugly by hand is what
separates valve stems doesn't hold up when tested. After manually
tightening the nut and inflating the tire to 100psi, the nut will
again be loose and free to turn, inflation pressure exerting more
force than thumb and forefinger can generate with the knurled nut.

Quoted message said:

EXACTLY! And therein lies the problem, because the now-loose nut is
buzzing, so you crank it down to get rid of the noise. The problem
isn't caused by the initial tightening; sorry if that's how it came
across. They may actually be useful initially (during pumping), and
I suggest to customers they can use them at that time, and then
remove them so they don't buzz.

What? Buzzing? In all the years of riding with stem nuts on Presta
valves, I haven't heard a sound from them, even at brisk speed in the
silence of a tailwind. Besides, the next time I pump that tire on the
road, I want the nut to be in place on the stem of the replacement
tube. There is no reason to throw the nut away other than tossing it
over the appropriate shoulder to prevent attack by vampires.

That is what the whole stem nut story is about, myth and lore.

Jobst Brandt

I agree. In 35 years of using presta valve tubes and sewups I've never
had a problem with valve stem nuts.

Chas.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Matt O'Toole said:

jobst.brandt said:

Besides,
why throw and otherwise good tube away if all you need to do is insert a
stem that you can get from any bicycle shop that has tubular users.

Wouldn't it be great if most shops actually stocked parts like this? If
they did, they'd probably charge as much as for a whole new tube anyway.

The stem can be used on the next tube, after the
current tube has a blow-out.

--
Michael Press

Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

How do you know the tube you are riding has a failsafe stem.

Quoted message said:

Experience. I've not had failures with certain brands, nor has
anyone I know.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Besides, why throw and otherwise good tube away if all you need to
do is insert a stem that you can get from any bicycle shop that has
tubular users.

Quoted message said:

Wouldn't it be great if most shops actually stocked parts like this?
If they did, they'd probably charge as much as for a whole new tube
anyway.

I said, a bicycle shop that deals in tubulars. Get one with a latex
tube out of the junk pile and extract the stem. You don BUY them! I
have a stack of them left over from the Clement days.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is possible but it's not my job to make sure a shop's
inventory is up to date with non-defective merchandise.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Or your own inventory of tubes on your shelf or in your reserve
pocket.

Quoted message said:

Agreed. As of yesterday it's been changed. As I already said, I
relied on the known-troublesome ones against my better judgment.

Quoted message said:

This is a good point about being responsible for one's equipment
though.

It doesn't hurt to carry a spare stem unless you are a weight weenie.

Jobst Brandt

On 02 Nov 2006 02:20:53 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

I said, a bicycle shop that deals in tubulars. Get one with a latex
tube out of the junk pile and extract the stem. You don BUY them! I
have a stack of them left over from the Clement days.

[snip]

Dear Jobst,

Another good example of local variation.

Where you live near San Francisco, a shop that deals in tubulars and
has a junk pile with tubulars containing latex tubes is probably easy
to find.

Maybe not as easy to find as goatheads where I live or as common as
flints in southern England, but still pretty easy.

But my curiosity is piqued. I'll call around Pueblo tomorrow and see
if Great Divide, Bob's Bicycles, or Vance's Bike World even sells
tubulars.

I vaguely suspect that my former neighbors got their tubulars out of
town and quickly gave up riding here, preferring bicycling trips to
Italy, but maybe one of the three bike shops here will surprise me.

Reminds me of people who ask me if I recommend Apple computers. I ask
them where they plan to buy Apples around here. Pueblo, a steel mill
and farming town, has a population of only around 100,000, so tubulars
and Apples are a bit scarce. Go 120 miles north to Boulder, a
university town, and Peter Chisholm happily uses both.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

On 02 Nov 2006 02:20:53 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I said, a bicycle shop that deals in tubulars. Get one with a latex
tube out of the junk pile and extract the stem. You don BUY them! I
have a stack of them left over from the Clement days.

Quoted message said:

Where you live near San Francisco, a shop that deals in tubulars and
has a junk pile with tubulars containing latex tubes is probably easy
to find.

I haven't looked hard outside of Berkeley, but have yet to find
any. None of the shops I've asked so far keep carcasses from the
Clement days around, except for the odd one or two that are mounted on
their window display museum pieces.

From talking to people in the shops though, the impression I
get is that modern latex tubes don't use the removable stems of yore.

The boxed latex tubes that I've examined have the same butyl
foot on the stem as butyl tubes; they're able to bond the butyl foot to
latex nowadays. I have to believe that current-day tubulars use these
same tubes, so even finding a fresh supply of junk tubulars doesn't help
much. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of these butyl feet tear
off their stems just as they've done on butyl tubes.

-Luns

On Thu, 2 Nov 2006 05:43:22 +0000 (UTC), [email hidden]

(Luns Tee) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

On 02 Nov 2006 02:20:53 GMT, [email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I said, a bicycle shop that deals in tubulars. Get one with a latex
tube out of the junk pile and extract the stem. You don BUY them! I
have a stack of them left over from the Clement days.

Quoted message said:

Where you live near San Francisco, a shop that deals in tubulars and
has a junk pile with tubulars containing latex tubes is probably easy
to find.

I haven't looked hard outside of Berkeley, but have yet to find
any. None of the shops I've asked so far keep carcasses from the
Clement days around, except for the odd one or two that are mounted on
their window display museum pieces.

From talking to people in the shops though, the impression I
get is that modern latex tubes don't use the removable stems of yore.

The boxed latex tubes that I've examined have the same butyl
foot on the stem as butyl tubes; they're able to bond the butyl foot to
latex nowadays. I have to believe that current-day tubulars use these
same tubes, so even finding a fresh supply of junk tubulars doesn't help
much. I wouldn't be at all surprised if some of these butyl feet tear
off their stems just as they've done on butyl tubes.

-Luns

Dear Luns,

You monster!

Now you've spoiled my innocent dream of a place somewhere over the
rainbow where skies are blue and friendly bike shops have garbage cans
full of juicy parts that I can scavenge for free.

Next you'll tell me that modern buggy whips are made of braided nylon,
not leather.

On a more realistic note, it's possible that Jobst scavenged the nifty
part a long time ago, but has never needed to replace it and hasn't
kept up with the times.

The possibility occurs to me because there are a lot of odd little
parts and tools lurking around Fogel Labs that fit that description,
things that seemed quite sensible and clever and useful and yet
somehow have never needed replacing since they were obtained.

Maybe I won't call the three bike shops in Pueblo tomorrow. But I'm
still hoping that Jobst will name a Stanford bike shop that has a box
of old tubies with the replacement stem that he carries.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:43:12 -0800, jim beam <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

valve nuts are best utilized in the practice of one's throw - the
further away the better. michelin don't even have a threaded stem -
they know what they're doing.

Hey, Jim.. Advocating polluting the environment of your rides with presta
stem nuts is not cool.

Jasper

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

Removing the nuts will increase your climbing speed by
0.0000000014597834%!

Admittedly, it's the cheapest weight-loss off your bicycle you can get. I
wonder if the difference in weight for, say, a rear derailer between
Ultegra and DA is that much more than a few stem nuts. Let alone things
like extrasuperlight jockey wheels.

Jasper

Jasper Janssen said:

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 20:43:12 -0800, jim beam <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

valve nuts are best utilized in the practice of one's throw - the
further away the better. michelin don't even have a threaded stem -
they know what they're doing.

Hey, Jim.. Advocating polluting the environment of your rides with presta
stem nuts is not cool.

Jasper

did i say i'm not aiming for a trash can? besides, let's get some
perspective here - the environmental impact of a little inorganic brass
is a good deal less than the organics in shed tire rubber, shed chain
lube, shed brake pad and, heaven forbid, [censored] pharmaceutical
by-products that originated in your doctor's office or your farmer's
veterinarian bag/pest control regimen.

"Jasper Janssen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

Removing the nuts will increase your climbing speed by
0.0000000014597834%!

Admittedly, it's the cheapest weight-loss off your bicycle you can

get. I

Quoted message said:

wonder if the difference in weight for, say, a rear derailer between
Ultegra and DA is that much more than a few stem nuts. Let alone

things

Quoted message said:

like extrasuperlight jockey wheels.

Jasper

How about "carbon" (reinforced carbon fiber composite) nuts? They would
save a gram or two!

Chas.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now to look into why the tire lost 20 psi in a few days. Surely it
can't be goathead punctures mostly sealed by Slime.

Quoted message said:

Drat! Goathead puncture, mostly sealed by Slime.

So you were right the first time: it wasn't puncture*s*.

Jasper

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

valve nuts buzzing.

Did a new all-valve-high-end-audio-amplifier get released? That always
sets the valve[1] nuts buzzing in the audiophool community.

Jasper

[1] en.US: Vacuum tubes.