Swapping Rim: HELP!

[Arthur Harris]

I've built many wheels over the years and also swapped rims,
so I figured it would be a snap to replace my old rim with a
new Torelli Master (same ERD).

As most of you know, the first step when lacing a wheel is
to determine whether the rime is "right handed" or "left
handed" (i.e., the offset of the spoke hole to the left of
the valve hole).

Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
"handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer the
spokes one at a time.

Is there an easy way of swapping these rims while keeping
the valve hole in the proper location AND keeping the spoke
orientation at the hub the same?

Art Harris

 

[daveornee]

Originally posted by Arthur Harris
I've built many wheels over the years and also swapped rims,
so I figured it would be a snap to replace my old rim with a
new Torelli Master (same ERD).

As most of you know, the first step when lacing a wheel is
to determine whether the rime is "right handed" or "left
handed" (i.e., the offset of the spoke hole to the left of
the valve hole).

Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
"handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer the
spokes one at a time.

Is there an easy way of swapping these rims while keeping
the valve hole in the proper location AND keeping the spoke
orientation at the hub the same?

Art Harris

I am sure that I am missing the obvious, but what is wrong with "indexing" the rim over one spoke hole?

 

[Arthur Harris]

"daveornee" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Arthur Harris wrote:
> > Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
> > "handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer
> > the spokes one at a time. Is there an easy way of
> > swapping these rims while keeping the valve hole in
> > the proper location AND keeping the spoke orientation
> > at the hub the same?
>
> I am sure that I am missing the obvious, but what is wrong
> with "indexing" the rim over one spoke hole?

Well, that would work, and I may end up doing that. But then
the valve wouldn't be between two near parallel spokes. I
could probably fit a pump onto the valve anyway, but it
would look kind of dorky.

I should mention that this is a rear wheel (naturally) with
different spoke lengths right and left.

Even if I completely disassemble the wheel, I'm not sure I
could re-lace it "properly" without the spokes pulling
differently on the hub flanges (not good!).

Art Harris

 

[daveornee]

Originally posted by Arthur Harris
"daveornee" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Arthur Harris wrote:
> > Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
> > "handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer
> > the spokes one at a time. Is there an easy way of
> > swapping these rims while keeping the valve hole in
> > the proper location AND keeping the spoke orientation
> > at the hub the same?
>
> I am sure that I am missing the obvious, but what is wrong
> with "indexing" the rim over one spoke hole?

Well, that would work, and I may end up doing that. But then
the valve wouldn't be between two near parallel spokes. I
could probably fit a pump onto the valve anyway, but it
would look kind of dorky.

I should mention that this is a rear wheel (naturally) with
different spoke lengths right and left.

Even if I completely disassemble the wheel, I'm not sure I
could re-lace it "properly" without the spokes pulling
differently on the hub flanges (not good!).

Art Harris

Yes, you will have the "dorky" spoke arrangement by the valve hole, but unless you get a rim with the same handedness, you will not be able to attain the same alignment at the hub.

Is the rim you are replacing also a Torelli?

I have also done this type of swap many times, but never run into the diferent handedness of rims yet.
I once replaced a SUN Rims CR18 with another SUN Rims CR18 and found out that the ERD wasn't the same. Now I always measure the ERDs, Spoke lengths, hub data, and then compare them before "blindly" moving ahead.

 

[Sheldon Brown]

Arthur Harris wrote:
>> > Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
>> > "handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer
>> > the spokes one at a time. Is there an easy way of
>> > swapping these rims while keeping the valve hole in
>> > the proper location AND keeping the spoke orientation
>> > at the hub the same?
>>
Dave Ornee asked:

>>I am sure that I am missing the obvious, but what is wrong
>>with "indexing" the rim over one spoke hole?
>
>
> Well, that would work, and I may end up doing that. But
> then the valve wouldn't be between two near parallel
> spokes. I could probably fit a pump onto the valve anyway,
> but it would look kind of dorky.
>
> I should mention that this is a rear wheel (naturally)
> with different spoke lengths right and left.
>
> Even if I completely disassemble the wheel, I'm not sure I
> could re-lace it "properly" without the spokes pulling
> differently on the hub flanges (not good!).

If you want to do this, the thing to do is to remove all of
the left side spokes from the hub and move them one hole
over (either direction.)

The issue of the spoke indentations in the hub flange is
insignificant with the left side of a rear wheel, because
those spokes are at low tension.

Sheldon "Where There's A Will" Brown +--------------------------------------------------------
---------+
| This message has been sent to you using recycled
| electrons | exclusively. Please do not discard them
| after use, | send them along and help conserve these
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+-----------------------------------------------------------
------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find
parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com
http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[Paul Kopit]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 13:54:11 GMT, "Arthur Harris" <[email protected]>
wrote:

>I've built many wheels over the years and also swapped
>rims, so I figured it would be a snap to replace my old rim
>with a new Torelli Master (same ERD).
>
>As most of you know, the first step when lacing a wheel is
>to determine whether the rime is "right handed" or "left
>handed" (i.e., the offset of the spoke hole to the left of
>the valve hole).
>
>Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
>"handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer the
>spokes one at a time.
>
>Is there an easy way of swapping these rims while keeping
>the valve hole in the proper location AND keeping the spoke
>orientation at the hub the same?
>
>Art Harris
>

Rotate the new rim one spoke and then tape them together.

 

[Sdmike]

"Arthur Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I've built many wheels over the years and also swapped
> rims, so I figured it would be a snap to replace my old
> rim with a new Torelli Master (same ERD).
>
> As most of you know, the first step when lacing a wheel is
> to determine whether the rime is "right handed" or "left
> handed" (i.e., the offset of the spoke hole to the left of
> the valve hole).
>
> Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
> "handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer the
> spokes one at a time.
>
> Is there an easy way of swapping these rims while keeping
> the valve hole in the proper location AND keeping the
> spoke orientation at the hub the same?
>
> Art Harris

The obvious answer is to switch the rim around the other
way. Yeah, the logo won't line up (be the same as the front:
read it from the drive side) right, but it'll be MUCH easier
than trying to re-lace the whole thing.

I've had this problem a few times in my life. I don't like
it, but I rationalize it because you can't see the logos
when you're riding anyway...

HTH,

M

 

[Arthur Harris]

"SDMike" wrote:

> The obvious answer is to switch the rim around the other
> way. Yeah, the
logo
> won't line up (be the same as the front: read it from the
> drive side)
right, but
> it'll be MUCH easier than trying to re-lace the
> whole thing.

Nope, that doesn't work! Hold a rim horizontally on your lap
with the valve hole opposite you. Let's say the spoke hole
to the left of the valve hole is offset downward. Now flip
the rim over. The spoke hole to the left of the valve hole
will still be offset downward. Try it.

Art Harris

 

[Arthur Harris]

"Sheldon Brown" wrote:
>
> If you want to do this, the thing to do is to remove all
> of the left side spokes from the hub and move them one
> hole over (either direction.)

Yikes! I'm having trouble picturing how to do that. Guess
I'd start by lining the two rims up together, but offset by
one hole. Then transfer the the right side spokes one at a
time. Then remove each left side spoke from the hub and move
them one hole over in the flange. Would the left side
outbound spokes become inbound?

What if I just kept the left side spokes in the hub, but
re-routed where they go on the rim? Would that have the
same effect?

Thanks for the challenge!

Art "my head hurts" Harris

 

[Jacobe Hazzard]

Sheldon Brown wrote:
> The issue of the spoke indentations in the hub flange is
> insignificant with the left side of a rear wheel, because
> those spokes are at low tension.

I'm glad to hear you say this. I had this same problem a
while back and I decided that was probably the case, but
didn't really like having the new spokes cross over the
grooves from the old spokes.

Several months later, the wheel is true and no catastrophic
flange failiures yet..

 

[BaCardi]

Originally posted by Arthur Harris
"daveornee" wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> Arthur Harris wrote:
> > Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
> > "handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer
> > the spokes one at a time. Is there an easy way of
> > swapping these rims while keeping the valve hole in
> > the proper location AND keeping the spoke orientation
> > at the hub the same?
>
> I am sure that I am missing the obvious, but what is wrong
> with "indexing" the rim over one spoke hole?

Well, that would work, and I may end up doing that. But then
the valve wouldn't be between two near parallel spokes. I
could probably fit a pump onto the valve anyway, but it
would look kind of dorky.

I should mention that this is a rear wheel (naturally) with
different spoke lengths right and left.

Even if I completely disassemble the wheel, I'm not sure I
could re-lace it "properly" without the spokes pulling
differently on the hub flanges (not good!).

Art Harris

So, if you want the valve hole between two near parallel spokes, why don't you just do this...
Find on the old rim where the valve hole is between two parallel spokes and not the offset in the rim. Then, on the new rim rotate it such that the high/low offset matches the two parallel spokes. Tape the rims together. One and a time, unscrew and then screw the new spoke and nipple to the new rim making sure that the pattern for the offset matches so that you get the parallel spokes at the valve hole. Presto!

 

[Jobst Brandt]

Arthur Harris writes:

> I've built many wheels over the years and also swapped
> rims, so I figured it would be a snap to replace my old
> rim with a new Torelli Master (same ERD).

> As most of you know, the first step when lacing a wheel is
> to determine whether the rime is "right handed" or "left
> handed" (i.e., the offset of the spoke hole to the left of
> the valve hole).

> Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
> "handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer the
> spokes one at a time.

> Is there an easy way of swapping these rims while keeping
> the valve hole in the proper location AND keeping the
> spoke orientation at the hub the same?

Don't bother. Move the rim to a position where the holes
in the old and new are parallel such that the stem is one
space off from where it would be ideally and transfer
spokes as usual. The reason for this is twofold. Don't
respoke a hub in a different spoke pattern or you
encourage flange failure. Don't take spokes out of the hub
because that encourages spoke failures. Aesthetically its
only a theoretical difference and makes no practical
difference in use.

Jobst Brandt [email protected]

 

[Zeeexsixare]

SDMike wrote:
> "Arthur Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> I've built many wheels over the years and also swapped
>> rims, so I figured it would be a snap to replace my old
>> rim with a new Torelli Master (same ERD).
>>
>> As most of you know, the first step when lacing a wheel
>> is to determine whether the rime is "right handed" or
>> "left handed" (i.e., the offset of the spoke hole to the
>> left of the valve hole).
>>
>> Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
>> "handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer the
>> spokes one at a time.
>>
>> Is there an easy way of swapping these rims while keeping
>> the valve hole in the proper location AND keeping the
>> spoke orientation at the hub the same?
>>
>> Art Harris
>
> The obvious answer is to switch the rim around the other
> way. Yeah, the logo won't line up (be the same as the
> front: read it from the drive side) right, but it'll be
> MUCH easier than trying to re-lace the whole thing.

You have the wrong impression of what the OP said. It has to
do with which side the spoke offset is. You can't just flip
the wheel around because you'll get a 180-degree rotation of
the next spoke hole, which is itself a 180-mirror of the
previous one, so you get a 360-rotation in effect.

Regardless, the real way to handle wrong logos is to do the
Rubik's Cube method... take off the sticker(s) and put them
back on the way you want them

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

[Rick Onanian]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 10:50:21 -0700, "SDMike" <[email protected]>
wrote:
>The obvious answer is to switch the rim around the other
>way. Yeah, the logo won't line up (be the same as the
>front: read it from the drive side) right, but it'll be
>MUCH easier than trying to re-lace the whole thing.
>
>I've had this problem a few times in my life. I don't like
>it, but I rationalize it because you can't see the logos
>when you're riding anyway...

STOP! Don't do it! You're in for MAJOR DANGER! It's not a
logo at all. Read this: http://groups.google.com/groups?&se-
lm=ahfj10l6jh3rv5u3sgjqprq7m0t22uu2kf%404ax.com
--
Rick "What, Alfred E. Neuman worry?" Onanian

 

[Sheldon Brown]

I wrote:

>>If you want to do this, the thing to do is to remove all
>>of the left side spokes from the hub and move them one
>>hole over (either direction.)
>
Arthur Harris wrote:
>
> Yikes! I'm having trouble picturing how to do that. Guess
> I'd start by lining the two rims up together, but offset
> by one hole. Then transfer the the right side spokes one
> at a time. Then remove each left side spoke from the hub
> and move them one hole over in the flange.

That sounds right.

> Would the left side outbound spokes become inbound?

No, each spoke should be inserted the same way through the
hub, and point in the same direction as before, just one
hole over in the hub from where they were with the opposite-
handed rim.

> What if I just kept the left side spokes in the hub, but
> re-routed where they go on the rim? Would that have the
> same effect?

No, the length wouldn't work out if you did that.

Sheldon "Insert Nickname Here" Brown +--------------------------------------------------------
---------+
| This message has been sent to you using recycled
| electrons | exclusively. Please do not discard them
| after use, | send them along and help conserve these
| irreplaceable | sub-atomic resources for future
| generations. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------
------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 http://harriscyclery.com Hard-to-find
parts shipped Worldwide http://captainbike.com
http://sheldonbrown.com

 

[A Muzi]

> "Arthur Harris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>>I've built many wheels over the years and also swapped
>>rims, so I figured it would be a snap to replace my old
>>rim with a new Torelli Master (same ERD). As most of you
>>know, the first step when lacing a wheel is to determine
>>whether the rime is "right handed" or "left handed" (i.e.,
>>the offset of the spoke hole to the left of the valve
>>hole). Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
>>"handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer the
>>spokes one at a time.
-snip- SDMike wrote:
> The obvious answer is to switch the rim around the other
> way. Yeah, the logo won't line up (be the same as the
> front: read it from the drive side) right, but it'll be
> MUCH easier than trying to re-lace the whole thing.
-snip-

Is that a joke? Flipping the rim still leaves the
"handedness' intact. (I peel off my labels anyway)

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

 

[A Muzi]

daveornee wrote:

> Arthur Harris wrote:
> > I've built many wheels over the years and also swapped
> > rims, so I figured it would be a snap to replace my
> > old rim with a new Torelli Master (same ERD). As most
> > of you know, the first step when lacing a wheel is to
> > determine whether the rime is "right handed" or "left
> > handed" (i.e., the offset of the spoke hole to the
> > left of the valve hole). Well, it turns out that my
> > new rim has the opposite "handedness" of my old rim.
> > So I can't just transfer the spokes one at a time. Is
> > there an easy way of swapping these rims while keeping
> > the valve hole in the proper location AND keeping the
> > spoke orientation at the hub the same? Art Harris
>
>
> I am sure that I am missing the obvious, but what is wrong
> with "indexing" the rim over one spoke hole?
>
The valve ends up in an unaesthetic small aperture instead
of the usual wide point. Works but looks ugly.

I'm with Art- that's a tough break.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

 

[Dianne_1234]

On Fri, 23 Apr 2004 21:31:26 -0500, A Muzi <[email protected]>
wrote:

>daveornee wrote:
>
>> Arthur Harris wrote:
>> > I've built many wheels over the years and also
>> > swapped rims, so I figured it would be a snap to
>> > replace my old rim with a new Torelli Master (same
>> > ERD). As most of you know, the first step when lacing
>> > a wheel is to determine whether the rime is "right
>> > handed" or "left handed" (i.e., the offset of the
>> > spoke hole to the left of the valve hole). Well, it
>> > turns out that my new rim has the opposite
>> > "handedness" of my old rim. So I can't just transfer
>> > the spokes one at a time. Is there an easy way of
>> > swapping these rims while keeping the valve hole in
>> > the proper location AND keeping the spoke orientation
>> > at the hub the same? Art Harris
>>
>>
>> I am sure that I am missing the obvious, but what is
>> wrong with "indexing" the rim over one spoke hole?
>>
>The valve ends up in an unaesthetic small aperture instead
>of the usual wide point. Works but looks ugly.
>
>I'm with Art- that's a tough break.

I'd live with the valve in the "wrong" spot as well.

But would anyone consider drilling a second valve hole in
the "right" spot? I'd think about it, but I'm not sure if
I'd really try it.

 

[A Muzi]

>>>Arthur Harris wrote:
-snip- Well, it turns out that my new rim has the opposite
"handedness" of my
>>> > old rim. So I can't just transfer the spokes one at a
>>> > time. Is there an easy way of swapping these rims
>>> > while keeping the valve hole in the proper location
>>> > AND keeping the spoke orientation at the hub the
>>> > same?

>>daveornee wrote:
>>>I am sure that I am missing the obvious, but what is
>>>wrong with "indexing" the rim over one spoke hole?

A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:
>>The valve ends up in an unaesthetic small aperture instead
>>of the usual wide point. Works but looks ugly. I'm with
>>Art- that's a tough break.

dianne_1234 wrote:
> I'd live with the valve in the "wrong" spot as well. But
> would anyone consider drilling a second valve hole in the
> "right" spot? I'd think about it, but I'm not sure if I'd
> really try it.

Continuing OT: One of our in-house comics drilled an extra
hole in a rim once and bolted in a presta valve to an
otherwise Schrader tube. "Hey I don't need any adapters".

I wouldn't either, but I assume it would work OK.

Where's the limit? I suppose an extra 31 valve holes would
likely have a significant effect on rim strength.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971