Swimmer's shoulder

Haim Guivon said:

I've seen Larry Weisenthal's very learned explanation, and
read the URL he recommended.

However, as a non-professional, I don't quite understand
how to translate the directives into practice. If I could
see sketches to show me exactly how to correct my strokes,
it would be most useful.

I swim for about one hour and a quarter of an hour every
day, and I switch among all the styles (except the most
strenous butterfly). The shoulder pain appeared when I
started swimming again after a pause of two months.

I'll appreciate any guide, thank you.

What kind of stretching do you do for your shoulders?

Quoted message said:

If I could see sketches to show me exactly how
to correct my strokes, it would be most useful.

No sketch; however, one swimming author makes the research
summary rather simple. Reaching and lifting the elbow for
the hand scull causes shoulder problems. The solution given
was to be sure the the hand drops down before you pressure
for the scull.

Gleshna - Multi-Thousandaire

DA LAKES: Da Lake Tube:
greatlakesurfing.compoint.jpgOpen ↗ Da
new Lake Movie: unsalted.tvunsalted.tvOpen ↗ Da Bears ???????

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Haim Guivon said:

I've seen Larry Weisenthal's very learned explanation,
and read the URL

he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

recommended.

However, as a non-professional, I don't quite understand
how to translate the directives into practice. If I could
see sketches to show me exactly

how

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to correct my strokes, it would be most useful.

I swim for about one hour and a quarter of an hour every
day, and I

switch

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

among all the styles (except the most strenous
butterfly). The shoulder

pain

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

appeared when I started swimming again after a pause of
two months.

I'll appreciate any guide, thank you.

What kind of stretching do you do for your shoulders?

=======================================

1) Holding hands behind back
2) Pressing on elbow with arm extended sideward before
chest.
3) Lifting arms with hands clasped behind body.
4) Hands above head, and stretching upwards one after the
other while holding wrist with other hand. Same stretch
upwards and sidewards (to the hand's opposite direction).

All these are done before swimming. After swimming,
several push-ups.

So sorry for my clumsy descriptions. It is poor knowledge of
matter and of english language.

Thank you for answering.

haim
========================================

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

However, as a non-professional, I don't quite understand
how to translate

the directives into practice. If I could see sketches to
show me exactly how to correct my strokes, it would be
most useful.<<

A couple of years back, I video'd my older daughter doing
"bad stroke," followed by "good stroke" (shoulder friendly-
wise) for all 4 strokes. I did this in preparation for a
presentation I made at a swimming conference. Now that I've
finally gotten decent video editing software, I'll try and
digitize it, and burn it into CDs (which I'd give away for
free) and post the clips on my website. Will doubtless take
me some time, but, by and by, I should have them. Send me a
private e-mail in about a month, if you are interested.
Shorten the above e-mail address by leaving off the last 3
letters after the "dot"

Stroke modifications for sore shoulders -->

Basically, you want to avoid internal rotation (counter-
clockwise, right and clockwise, left) of the hand.

You want to recover (above the water) with your thumb
forward of the pinky and your palm facing your head. You
want to enter the water pinky first and not thumb first. You
want to enter just a bit wider than is classic for
freestyle...more of a buttefly enter position. You want to
have a bit of a diagonal inward pull (similar to butterfly)
and not a straight back pull (which you have to have when
your hand enters forward of the head rather than outwards a
little bit, as in butterfly. You want to avoid internally
rotating the hand as you descend into the catch. Maintain
the slightly thumb forward of the pinky position as you pull
inward and backward. You want to let your hand descend into
the catch position before applying significant pulling
force. You want the pulling force to be backwards and not
downwards (which forces the head of the humerus upward,
compressing the superior rotator cuff against the acromion
("car port" boney part of the shoulder blade over the head
of the humerus). You don't want an exaggerated push back, as
this causes a "wring out" of the blood supply to the
superior rotator cuff.

Say -- over and over and over -- "internal rotation is bad;
external rotation is good."

"Gleshna" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If I could see sketches to show me exactly how
to correct my strokes, it would be most useful.

No sketch; however, one swimming author makes the research
summary rather simple. Reaching and lifting the elbow for
the hand scull causes shoulder problems. The solution
given was to be sure the the hand drops down

before you

Quoted message said:

pressure for the scull.

Gleshna - Multi-Thousandaire

DA LAKES: Da Lake Tube: greatlakesurfing.com-greatlakesurfing.com-Open ↗
/images/Gallery/point.jpg Da new Lake Movie:
unsalted.tvunsalted.tvOpen ↗ Da Bears ???????

===========================================

I don't quite understand. In front crawl, during recovery,
the elbow leaves the water first, goes high and then the
hand follows. The hand moves forward parallel to the water
surface, and enters the water before it is fully extended,
thumb first. (this is how my coach tought me a long time
ago). Is that more or less what you mean? Then I do it
correctly.

I want to add that I feel the pain at the start of the push
in the water. I've discovered that it is at this moment that
I must be careful not to lift the shoulder toward the ear,
but on the contrary to push it toward the bottom of the
pool. This helps, but it is difficult to remember. It is
enough one bad stroke and the pain is back. I cannot explain
better, sorry for my language limitations.

It is possible that the problem originates not in front
crawl, but in backstroke. I couldn't say, because both
strokes are equally painful. In backstroke, the arm makes a
full semi-circle when going backwards, and enters the water
little finger first. When starting the push movement, is
when I feel the pain. Here too, experiment shows me that I
can feel less pain if I push the shoulder toward my nose
when pushing water. This is somehow unnatural and I must be
very aware not to forget.

Could you translate my feelings into more accurate terms?

thank you for answering, haim

=============================================

Please, I want to insert several notes and questions in the
text below.
---------------------------------------------------------
----------
"Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Stroke modifications for sore shoulders -->

Basically, you want to avoid internal rotation (counter-
clockwise, right

and

Quoted message said:

clockwise, left) of the hand.

You want to recover (above the water) with your thumb
forward of the pinky

and

Quoted message said:

your palm facing your head. You want to enter the water
pinky first and

not

Quoted message said:

thumb first.

-------------------------------------------------------
----------
Is that so? I was tought to enter the water thumb first.
Moreover, an old handbook I have (The Handbook of Swimming,
by David Wilkie & Kelvin Juba) says so. If you insist, I'll
accept your word, because it sounds sensible, and try to
change my habits.
-------------------------------------------------------
----------

Quoted message said:

You want to enter just a bit wider than is classic for
freestyle...more of a buttefly enter position. You want to
have a bit of

a

Quoted message said:

diagonal inward pull (similar to butterfly) and not a
straight back pull

(which

Quoted message said:

you have to have when your hand enters forward of the head
rather than

outwards

Quoted message said:

a little bit, as in butterfly. You want to avoid
internally rotating the

hand

Quoted message said:

as you descend into the catch.

------------------------------------------------------
----------
Here again, we learnt to enter the water "between a line
with the shoulder and body midline" (from the quoted book).
You suggest the hand should enters the water more outwards
of the body. It seems logical to me (as it will help in the
backward push which will be diagonal inward from the side to
the centerline of the body), but again, I am confused by the
discrepancy.
------------------------------------------------------
----------

Quoted message said:

Maintain the slightly thumb forward of the pinky position
as you pull inward and backward.

--------------------------------------------------------
----------
I don't understand this one. When I push, the hand is
perpendicular to the water surface, thumb up. What does it
mean "thumb forward of the pinky"?

If the hand is at an angle the push would lose strength.
-------------------------------------------------------
----------

Quoted message said:

You want to let your hand descend into the catch position
before applying significant pulling force.

You

Quoted message said:

want the pulling force to be backwards and not downwards
(which forces the

head

Quoted message said:

of the humerus upward, compressing the superior rotator
cuff against the acromion ("car port" boney part of the
shoulder blade over the head of the humerus). You don't
want an exaggerated push back, as this causes a

"wring

Quoted message said:

out" of the blood supply to the superior rotator cuff.

-----------------------------------------------------------
----------
Right, but what does it mean "an exagerated push back"?
Too forceful?
-----------------------------------------------------------
----------

Quoted message said:

Say -- over and over and over -- "internal rotation is
bad; external

rotation

Quoted message said:

is good."

====================================
Thank for reading and for answers and comments. haim

Haim Guivon said:

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Haim Guivon said:

I've seen Larry Weisenthal's very learned explanation,
and read the URL

he

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

recommended.

However, as a non-professional, I don't quite understand
how to translate the directives into practice. If I
could see sketches to show me exactly

how

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to correct my strokes, it would be most useful.

I swim for about one hour and a quarter of an hour every
day, and I

switch

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

among all the styles (except the most strenous
butterfly). The shoulder

pain

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

appeared when I started swimming again after a pause of
two months.

I'll appreciate any guide, thank you.

What kind of stretching do you do for your shoulders?

=======================================

1) Holding hands behind back
2) Pressing on elbow with arm extended sideward before
chest.
3) Lifting arms with hands clasped behind body.
4) Hands above head, and stretching upwards one after the
other while holding wrist with other hand. Same stretch
upwards and sidewards (to the hand's opposite
direction).

All these are done before swimming. After swimming, several
push-ups.

Add this one once a day, at least until you recover. Suppose
your right shoulder is the one in pain. Dangle a small towel
over your left shoulder from your left hand. Reach around
behind your back with your right hand and grab the end of
the towel. Pull up on the towel with your left hand as far
as you can.

martin

Haim Guivon said:

Is that so? I was tought to enter the water thumb first.
Moreover, an old handbook I have (The Handbook of Swimming,
by David Wilkie & Kelvin Juba) says so. ...

Most swim books, including the latest from Maglischo and
Colwin, show at least moderate impingement during the crawl
stroke, and some elites swim with extreme impingement. It
may be faster, but unfortunately, some people can't swim
that way without injury.

donalfagan.comshoulder.htmlOpen ↗

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Haim Guivon" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What kind of stretching do you do for your shoulders?

=======================================

1) Holding hands behind back
2) Pressing on elbow with arm extended sideward before
chest.
3) Lifting arms with hands clasped behind body.
4) Hands above head, and stretching upwards one after the
other while holding wrist with other hand. Same
stretch upwards and sidewards (to the hand's opposite
direction).

All these are done before swimming. After swimming,
several push-ups.

Add this one once a day, at least until you recover.
Suppose your right shoulder is the one in pain. Dangle a
small towel over your left shoulder from your left hand.
Reach around behind your back with your right hand and
grab the end of the towel. Pull up on the towel with your
left hand as far as you can.

martin

====================================================

I've already added it to my warming up. Thank you very much.
It hurts at the beginning, but then it feels better.

BTW, I've found some very good exercises in the web, and I
do them every day. It seems to help:

physsportsmed.comloosli.htmOpen ↗

haim

"Donal Fagan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Haim Guivon said:

Is that so? I was tought to enter the water thumb first.
Moreover, an old handbook I have (The Handbook of
Swimming, by David Wilkie & Kelvin Juba) says so. ...

Most swim books, including the latest from Maglischo and
Colwin, show at least moderate impingement during the
crawl stroke, and some elites swim with extreme
impingement. It may be faster, but unfortunately, some
people can't swim that way without injury.

donalfagan.comshoulder.htmlOpen ↗

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

==============================================

Thank you for your webpage. Nevertheless, let me,
please, ask:

In your page I read:

"Cecil Colwin's illustration of the crawl stroke from
Swimming Dynamics, above, shows the swimmer's reaching hand
parallel to the surface of the the water, and his body
perpendicular to the surface. The swimmer has internally
rotated his leading arm about 180 degrees, so he is
potentially causing impingement in that shoulder".

Well, I don't get it. I thought that thumb down and pinky up
at entry would be maximum internal rotation, like it can be
seen in your page showing a sequence of photos of Mark
Spitzer, and this is discouraged if one wants to avoid
shoulder impingement.

If palm (down) paralell to the surface of the water means
180 degrees internal rotation, then taking the palm up would
mean no internal rotation? This would be a very awkward
position!. Moreover, what is "body perpendicular to the
surface"? This would mean standing up in the water!.

Or most probably my understanding of English is too poor.

To resume, what would be the reccomended hand position? And
how exactly do I define "internal rotation"?

thanks for an answer. haim

Haim Guivon said:

"Martin W. Smith" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Haim Guivon" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> What kind of stretching do you do for your shoulders?
=======================================

1) Holding hands behind back
2) Pressing on elbow with arm extended sideward before
chest.
3) Lifting arms with hands clasped behind body.
4) Hands above head, and stretching upwards one after
the other while holding wrist with other hand. Same
stretch upwards and sidewards (to the hand's opposite
direction).

All these are done before swimming. After swimming,
several push-ups.

Add this one once a day, at least until you recover.
Suppose your right shoulder is the one in pain. Dangle a
small towel over your left shoulder from your left hand.
Reach around behind your back with your right hand and
grab the end of the towel. Pull up on the towel with your
left hand as far as you can.

martin

====================================================

I've already added it to my warming up. Thank you very
much. It hurts at the beginning, but then it feels better.

It was actually recommended to me by a surgeon who
specialized in back problems. I had gone to him because of
persistent shoulder pain of the kind you describe. After
using this stretch for a week, the pain disappeared and has
not returned.

Haim Guivon said:

Well, I don't get it. I thought that thumb down and pinky
up at entry would be maximum internal rotation, like it
can be seen in your page showing a sequence of photos of
Mark Spitzer,

Correct.

Quoted message said:

and this is discouraged if one wants to avoid shoulder
impingement.

Impingement *is* discouraged by some coaches, scientists
and doctors, like Larry, who posted earlier, but
impingement is *not* discouraged by *all* prominent
coaches. So you will find little mention of shoulder-
friendly technique in classic swim manuals.

Quoted message said:

If palm (down) paralell to the surface of the water means
180 degrees internal rotation, then taking the palm up
would mean no internal rotation?

It depends on your palm's relation to your body, not to the
water. If you are flat in the water, and your hand is flat,
that isn't much impingement

Quoted message said:

This would be a very awkward position!. Moreover, what is
"body perpendicular to the surface"? This would mean
standing up in the water!.

It could, or it could mean a body lying on its side instead
of on its back or stomach. Then the Y-axis of your body
would be perpendicular to the plane of the water.

Donal Fagan AIA Donal@DonalO'Fagan.com (Anglicise the name
to reply by e-mail)

"Gleshna" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Haim Guivon"

Quoted message said:

I was not talking about the recovery. I was talking about
the catch.

That is

Quoted message said:

when your hand first enters the water. As I mentioned one
author warns

against

Quoted message said:

an improper catch. Also, I have had a physical therapist
mention that an improper catch in swimming causes shoulder
problems.

If you push down with the arm fully extended then at least
one physical therapist believes you may have shoulder
problems. If you lift your elbow rather than drop your
hand to start pulling/sculling then at least one

author

Quoted message said:

suggests that you may have shoulder problems.

For the recovery, since I swim on my side (Total Immersion
) I use the let

the

Quoted message said:

fingers slide up the side with a high elbow. I think this
is the least

problem

Quoted message said:

for my shoulders.

Gleshna - Multi-Thousandaire

DA LAKES: Da Lake Tube: greatlakesurfing.com-greatlakesurfing.com-Open ↗
/images/Gallery/point.jpg Da new Lake Movie:
unsalted.tvunsalted.tvOpen ↗ Da Bears ???????

============================================

Got it. I think that's it. Moreover, when I lift the elbow,
I also lift the shoulder, and that was BAAD. Today I
followed your advice, making a deliberate effort to lower
the elbow and shoulder, and rolling downwards the pushing
side of the body (which further helps to keep elbow and
shoulder low), and I already feel much better.

Thanks a lot, haim

============================================

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Gleshna) said:

Quoted message said:

"Haim Guivon"

Quoted message said:

The hand moves forward parallel to the water surface,
and enters the water before it is fully extended, thumb
first. (this is how my coach tought me a long time ago).
Is that more or less what you mean?

I was not talking about the recovery. I was talking about
the catch. That is when your hand first enters the water.

Well, that would be the "entry." I usually reserve "catch"
for the point where the arm/hand first grabs water and
applies force. Some swimmers descend directly to a catch
after entry without stopping. Others glide for a few
milliseconds with the arm extended first.

Quoted message said:

As I mentioned one author warns against an improper catch.
Also, I have had a physical therapist mention that an
improper catch in swimming causes shoulder problems.

I fully agree with that therapist.

Quoted message said:

If you push down with the arm fully extended then at least
one physical therapist believes you may have shoulder
problems.

I agree with that one also. Let the hand descend 8-10
inches, and swing the elbow sideways a bit, before
applying force.

Quoted message said:

If you lift your elbow rather than drop your hand to start
pulling/sculling then at least one author suggests that
you may have shoulder problems.

Well, you can't just drop your hand. Most human elbows don't
bend that direction. Your elbow has to swing a bit sideways
at the same time.

(This is the "high-elbow catch" that's so often spoken of,
and sometimes confused with the "high-elbow recovery" that's
also well spoken of.)

Quoted message said:

For the recovery, since I swim on my side (Total Immersion
) I use the let the fingers slide up the side with a high
elbow. I think this is the least problem for my shoulders.

That would be a fingertip drill, aka "shark fin." Lots of
coaches use them, not just TI coaches, both to teach a high
elbow recovery and to encourage rotating enough to get the
shoulder out of the water.

Ross

"Ross Bogue" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Gleshna) said:

Quoted message said:

"Haim Guivon"

Quoted message said:

The hand moves forward parallel to the water surface,
and enters the water before it is fully extended,
thumb first. (this is how my coach tought me a long
time

ago). Is

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

that more or less what you mean?

I was not talking about the recovery. I was talking
about the catch.

That

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is when your hand first enters the water.

Well, that would be the "entry." I usually reserve "catch"
for the point where the arm/hand first grabs water and
applies force. Some swimmers descend directly to a catch
after entry without stopping. Others glide for a few
milliseconds with the arm extended first.

Quoted message said:

As I mentioned one author warns against an improper
catch. Also, I have had a physical therapist
mention that

an

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

improper catch in swimming causes shoulder problems.

I fully agree with that therapist.

Quoted message said:

If you push down with the arm fully extended then at
least one physical therapist believes you may have
shoulder problems.

I agree with that one also. Let the hand descend 8-10
inches, and swing the elbow sideways a bit, before
applying force.

Quoted message said:

If you lift your elbow rather than drop your hand to
start pulling/sculling then at least one

author

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

suggests that you may have shoulder problems.

Well, you can't just drop your hand. Most human elbows
don't bend that direction. Your elbow has to swing a bit
sideways at the same time.

(This is the "high-elbow catch" that's so often spoken of,
and sometimes confused with the "high-elbow recovery"
that's also well spoken of.)

Quoted message said:

For the recovery, since I swim on my side (Total
Immersion ) I use the

let

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the fingers slide up the side with a high elbow. I think
this is the least problem for my shoulders.

That would be a fingertip drill, aka "shark fin." Lots of
coaches use them, not just TI coaches, both to teach a
high elbow recovery and to encourage rotating enough to
get the shoulder out of the water.

Ross

=============================================
Very enlightening remarks, thank you.

Now a question for everybody: I've learnt a lot from this
discussion, and I am putting the insights to work. But all
refer to freestyle.

I need also some remarks on the best techniques for
backstroke. I feel a heavy burden on the shoulders at the
entry and start of catch. Well, actually for the whole
underwater movement. I do feel that my shoulder does not
know how to behave.

haim

On 04 Jun 2004 05:00:38 GMT, [email hidden] (Larry Weisenthal)

Quoted message said:

In a nutshell, swim coaches teach techniques which they
feel maximize performance.

But you must remember that, at the elite level, a 2%
difference is huge, while at the level of a fitness
swimmer, 2% is trivial and simply isn't worth the pain and
risk of a long term injury.

That's a very, very good point Larry and one that all
fitness enthusiasts, not just swimmers, should keep in mind.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Donal and I have discussed and explained all of this stuff
at very great length over the years. You can go to Google
Groups and enter "runnswim" and "shoulder" and/or "Donal"
and "shoulder" and you'll have no trouble finding all
manner of very detailed explanations and discussions.

I have been battling swimmers shoulder for a couple of years
and am currently not swimming due to a recent relapse.
Caused by a too-closely fought finish at a recent master's
event I swam in.

I am following all this with interest. I am not able to swim
enough at the moment to fully test your stroke change
suggestions, but I will when I have recovered enough to
start swimming again. In the meantime I do my rotator cuff
exercises and squats and bide my time.

--
Helgi Briem hbriem AT simnet DOT is

Never worry about anything that you see on the news.
To get on the news it must be sufficiently rare
that your chances of being involved are negligible!

"Larry Weisenthal" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Please, I want to insert several notes and questions in
the text

below.<<

Quoted message said:

Donal did a good job addressing your questions.

==========================================
He did, indeed.

But please, I need to get a better understanding of the
actual ways to avoid "internal rotation". With practical
examples I mean.

I swim with a very small body rotation. In the website you
mention in another article, I see that the swimmer lies in
the water with the Y axis perpendicular to the water surface
during the pause stage. I don't. I lie with with the Y
access almost parallel to the water surface, with a very
small body rotation during catch and start of push. In this
position (which I am too old to want to change), how should
the position of each hand be to avoid internal rotation?

I think that I understood your guides for the catch and pull
stages, but it all depends on the best hand position during
the entry. And that I don't quite get.

Thanks, haim

PS: I'll follow your advice about the Google search on Donal
or Runswim and Shoulder. Thanks.
==========================================

Quoted message said:

In a nutshell, swim coaches teach techniques which they
feel maximize performance.

But you must remember that, at the elite level, a 2%
difference is huge,

while

Quoted message said:

at the level of a fitness swimmer, 2% is trivial and
simply isn't worth

the

Quoted message said:

pain and risk of a long term injury.

The most important "rule," to repeat, is to avoid internal
rotation. With external rotation, the vulnerable
supraspinatus (superior rotator) tendon

is

Quoted message said:

rotated out from underneath the coracoacromial ligament
and acromium,

which

Quoted message said:

form the "roof" of the "carport" which covers the rotator
cuff. When you internally rotate, in contrast, you place
this tendon in the location

where

Quoted message said:

there is the least amount of room and the greatest amount
of impingement. Swimmer's shoulder is almost always an
impingement injury and not an

overuse

Quoted message said:

injury.

Rotator cuff exercises are also helpful, in that they
strengthen the

so-called

Quoted message said:

"active stabilizers," which are the rotator cuff muscles
themselves. With

good

Quoted message said:

rotator muscle tone, the head of the humerus is held in
place better and

is

Quoted message said:

less prone to migrate upward and produce impingement.

When I talked about entering a little wider and pulling in
slightly

diagonally,

Quoted message said:

with the thumb forward (relative to the direction of
travel) of the pinky,

I am

Quoted message said:

just describing how to maintain a position of external
rotation throughout

the

Quoted message said:

stroke.

Donal and I have discussed and explained all of this stuff
at very great

length

Quoted message said:

over the years. You can go to Google Groups and enter
"runnswim" and "shoulder" and/or "Donal" and "shoulder"
and you'll have no trouble

finding all

Quoted message said:

manner of very detailed explanations and discussions.

Quoted message said:

Rotator cuff exercises are also helpful, in that they
strengthen the

so-called "active stabilizers," which are the rotator cuff
muscles themselves. With good rotator muscle tone, the head
of the humerus is held in place better and is less prone to
migrate upward and produce impingement.

From reading all of this, I am getting the idea that my
shoulder pain is not what y'all would call tendinits. My
pain is in the area of the scapula under the posterior
deltoid muscle, I believe. Is the typical swimmer's shoulder
up higher on the tip of the shoulder joint? I haven't
changed anything for months and yet all of a sudden I have
this pain in my left shoulder.

Pat in TX