TDF understanding

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Milton
This is the first year im taking more than the usual notice of the TDF as both my boys (13 & 11yrs)
have taken up cycling (Midland Club, WA) Im trying to make sense of it all. How do the sprints work
in each stage . does every body stop & do standing starts or do the sprinters somehow make it to the
front of the 200 strong peleton & do a rolling sprint ?????????

If only they telecast it live as there is **** all on during the early hours which i think is when
it would be on, (tape it) Im sure even a non cyclist would rather watch it than paid
advertising/[censored] & more people would be the wise to how it works & cycling would grow in Oz.........

Mil

Milton,

Each Sunday night, SBS is telecasting entire stages live in Sydney from 10:50pm EST. If they have it over your way, you won't even have to stay up late to watch it !!! Check out your TV guide.

I'm planning to have the indoor trainer set up and get a good 2 hr session in each week !!

Regards,
Harrow.

Milton said:

This is the first year im taking more than the usual notice of the TDF as both my boys (13 &
11yrs) have taken up cycling (Midland Club, WA) Im trying to make sense of it all. How do the
sprints work in each stage . does every body stop & do standing starts or do the sprinters somehow
make it to the front of the 200 strong peleton & do a rolling sprint ?????????

G'day Milton, No-one does standing starts nor waits for anyone (unless its an important team mate),
its first over the line and nothing else to it. Yes, sprinters just make sure they're at the pointy
end on the bunch when the time comes. If they aren't, tough. Stuart O'Grady says he makes sure he
starts making his way to the front with 40km to go. McEwen just stays near the front most the race -
he has the intermediate sprints to worry about. It is a very tactical sport.

There are intermediate sprints at various points along the course, with time bonuses, 6,4 and 2
seconds for 1st,2nd,3rd (& goes towards Green jersey points). The riders know where they are and the
fast guys start jockeying for position as they approach.

Infact McGee lost the yellow jersey today because some Frenchman (Nazon) accrued 8 or 10 seconds
going for those intermediates...

Quoted message said:

If only they telecast it live as there is [censored] all on during the early hours which i think is when
it would be on, (tape it) Im sure even a non cyclist would rather watch it than paid
advertising/[censored] & more people would be the wise to how it works & cycling would grow in
Oz.........

Mil

Actually, each stage is over by 11pm WA time. Live would suit us here.

There is an FAQ on the Tour here: cyclingnews.comtour03Open ↗

Hope this helps

GK

Harrow said:

Milton said:

This is the first year im taking more than the usual notice of the TDF as both my boys (13 &
11yrs) have taken up cycling (Midland Club, WA) Im trying to make sense of it all. How do the
sprints work in each stage . does every body stop & do standing starts or do the sprinters
somehow make it to the front of the 200 strong peleton & do a rolling sprint ?????????

Some of the rules and regulations are on the official tour site,
letour.comreglement.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If only they telecast it live as there is **** all on during the early hours which i think is
when it would be on, (tape it) Im sure even a non cyclist would rather watch it than paid
advertising/[censored] & more people would be the wise to how it works & cycling would grow in
Oz......... Mil

Quoted message said:

Milton,

Quoted message said:

Each Sunday night, SBS is telecasting entire stages live in Sydney from
10:50pm EST. If they have it over your way, you won't even have to stay up late to watch it !!!
Check out your TV guide.

The live stages look like good ones, two mountain stages, and I guess the finish is always a
good one to show! I just wish it was on a Friday or Saturday night, save me falling asleep at
work on monday.

13/7/2003 Sallanches - L'Alpe d'Huez
13/8/2003 Saint-Girons - Loudenvielle
13/9/2003 Ville d'Avray - Paris

The timing of the daily coverage could be improved, or is it just assumed that everyone owns a VCR
and time shifts it? 6pm is too early for a lot of people, and then the replay at midnight too late!

Hey, SBS, how about a 7am showing?

Quoted message said:

I'm planning to have the indoor trainer set up and get a good 2 hr session in each week !!

Quoted message said:

Regards, Harrow.

Adrian

---------------------------------------------------------------
Adrian Tritschler "][email hidden] Latitude 38°S, Longitude 145°E,
Altitude 50m, Shoe size 44
---------------------------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

There is an FAQ on the Tour here: cyclingnews.comtour03Open ↗

That is a great FAQ as far as it goes, but I'd also like to know:

- why are the green, white, and polka-dot jerseys coloured that way (the explanation for yellow
being widely known)?

- why do Phil and Paul (the commentators) say "there's no breeze to cool the riders today" when the
peloton is going 50 km/h and therefore generating their own apparent wind? (or even more absurdly,
if there were a strong tailwind, the riders would feel little or no relative breeze at all, so
P&P's comment makes little apparent sense)

- what kind of gearing do the top sprinters use for the flat stages? I'm pretty sure the top gear on
my road bike (52 x 14) would be useless
(i.e. way too low) at the 70km/h quoted for these guys in the finish straight.

- when a rider qualifies for several jerseys on one day, is he actually given one of each of those
jerseys to keep? And the next day, when the lesser jerseys for which he qualifies can be worn by
the riders coming second in those categories, do those riders get to keep those jerseys even
though they weren't leading that competition at the time? And how do they decide which jersey is
"lesser", e.g. what if a rider held both the green and the KOM?

- when finishing a time trial, why don't all the riders sprint for the last few 100 metres (thus
using up their alactic reserves, of which you only have 30 seconds or so)? I'm talking about the
real TT contenders, not the guys saving themselves for later stages. And if they've given
everything they've got, why don't you see them throwing up afterwards like real human beings? :-)

- I've heard that many riders dislike the rest days because they disrupt the daily routine of racing
- is this for real? (me, I dislike the rest days because SBS just rehashes the nightly coverage
I've already seen)

- why in the flat-out sprint that Cookey won (Stage 2) are almost all the riders still in the saddle
(see sportal.com.au000114img800.jpg)Open ↗ That sprint was really close,
and Cookey's just crossed the line, so it's not because they have sat up already.

Phew, that's enough for now - anyone know any answers please?

TIA,

&roo

Andrew Swan said:

Quoted message said:

There is an FAQ on the Tour here: cyclingnews.comtour03Open ↗

Quoted message said:

That is a great FAQ as far as it goes, but I'd also like to know:

Quoted message said:

- why are the green, white, and polka-dot jerseys coloured that way (the explanation for yellow
being widely known)?

<snip>

Quoted message said:

TIA,

Quoted message said:

&roo

No answers, but I'd like to know who makes all the jerseys and how many do they make?

eg. there are the 'fake' jerseys used on the podium which zip all the way up the back, but on the
following day, the riders will wear a 'real' yellow/green/ white/polka dot jersey with their team
logos on it.

So, do the teams make their own jerseys and hope that they actually win the right to wear them? And
then there are the riders who wear the full kit, like Brad McGee wearing the yellow jersey and
yellow knicks.

Anyone?

--
Nick

Quoted message said:

- why do Phil and Paul (the commentators) say "there's no breeze to cool the riders today" when
the peloton is going 50 km/h and therefore generating their own apparent wind? (or even more
absurdly, if there were a strong tailwind, the riders would feel little or no relative breeze at
all, so P&P's comment makes little apparent sense)

Dunno. Slipstreaming?

Quoted message said:

- when a rider qualifies for several jerseys on one day, is he actually given one of each of those
jerseys to keep? And the next day, when the lesser jerseys for which he qualifies can be worn by
the riders coming second in those categories, do those riders get to keep those jerseys even
though they weren't leading that competition at the time? And how do they decide which jersey is
"lesser", e.g. what if a rider held both the green and the KOM?

If a rider holds more than one jersey, the official ranking order for wearing them is yellow, green,
polka dot, white. Check out www.letour.fr for more info on the jerseys & how they are awarded.

Here's my answers to some of your questions:

Q. Why do Phil and Paul (the commentators) say "there's no breeze to cool the riders today" when the peloton is going 50 km/h and therefore generating their own apparent wind?

A. They're really saying that the air is still and hence hot, whereas if the weather is hot but a cool breeze is there (eg. riding along a coast line), it feels much cooler.

Q. What kind of gearing do the top sprinters use for the flat stages? I'm pretty sure the top gear on
my road bike (52 x 14) would be useless
(i.e. way too low) at the 70km/h quoted for these guys in the finish straight.

A. Unless you can spin really fast, a 52 x 14 might not even win a D grade bunch sprint. They're using 53x11 to 55x11 type gears, with cadences in the 100-130 range.

Q. When finishing a time trial, why don't all the riders sprint for the last few 100 metres (thus
using up their alactic reserves, of which you only have 30 seconds or so)? I'm talking about the
real TT contenders, not the guys saving themselves for later stages. And if they've given
everything they've got, why don't you see them throwing up afterwards like real human beings? :-)

A. Did you see McGee after the time trial? He was practically delirious and couldnt stand up. They use every last bit of strength, but its hard to sprint when you've just ridden 6km at closeto your maximum.

Q. Why in the flat-out sprint that Cookey won (Stage 2) are almost all the riders still in the saddle
(see sportal.com.au000114img800.jpg)Open ↗ That sprint was really close,
and Cookey's just crossed the line, so it's not because they have sat up already.

A. Try spinning above about 120 in the saddle. Very hard. Hence, you always see track riders sprint out of the saddle to jump away, then sit down once the cadence gets high. (Our track coach makes us do 400 metre flat out efforts out of the saddle, and towards the end it becomes close to impossible unless you are in a huge gear). And BTW, Cookie won by about almost a metre, which is not particularly close. Hence, he had time to sit up for the photo on the line.

It seems to me the only guys who have a chance are the sprinters. Everyone drafts in the peleton all day, and then the sprinters blast away and get the glory.

Why do the other guys even bother turning up?

Harrow. 😕

"Harrow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It seems to me the only guys who have a chance are the sprinters. Everyone drafts in the peleton
all day, and then the sprinters blast away and get the glory.

Why do the other guys even bother turning up?

The Tour is, and has almost always been, a teams event ie. riders ride to support and assist the
rider in their team who has the best chance of a victory (stage or overall).

As for the sprinters, in France they have these things called the Alps. Watch the sprinters die once
they get there.

I recall one of Lance Armstrongs wins last year in the Pyrenees IIRC. He was riding with a couple of
other riders (one may have been Virenque?) leading them up the climb, with the peleton a little way
back. After a good distance up the climb, but 5km or so to go to the finish, Lance just stood on the
pedals and kept going. The distraught look on the face of the rider behind him was very telling. The
pace on the climb just burnt them out.

Cheers Peter

Cheers Peter

"Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]... [snip]>

Quoted message said:

I recall one of Lance Armstrongs wins last year in the Pyrenees IIRC. He

was

Quoted message said:

riding with a couple of other riders (one may have been Virenque?) leading them up the climb, with
the peleton a little way back. After a good

distance

Quoted message said:

up the climb, but 5km or so to go to the finish, Lance just stood on the pedals and kept going.
The distraught look on the face of the rider behind him was very telling. The pace on the climb
just burnt them out.

I think that was on Mt Ventoux vs Beloki, after Beloki's one and only attempt to drop Lance. Like
his "look" at Ulrich, a couple of years back, a real defining moment. IIRC Virenque was already up
the road and took the stage.

Ryman

Harrow said:

It seems to me the only guys who have a chance are the sprinters. Everyone drafts in the peleton
all day, and then the sprinters blast away and get the glory.

Why do the other guys even bother turning up?

Harrow. 😕

Because sprinters are only good on flat stages, it is their only chance for glory. The others are
biding their time for the TT and the mountains. A chance for non-sprinters (in flat stages) is to
break away and solo for 100 to 200km to the finish which guys have tried to do the last few days
without success. But over the years, some have succeeded. Sprinters usually aren't any good at
100km+ solos. They can't win overall either.

GK

Chipo (as he likes to be called) often goes home after the flat stages have been completed as he
hates the mountains.

Maybe that had something to do with him not receiving an invite to the tour this year. Just a
thought. :o)

Cheers

John

g said:

Harrow said:

It seems to me the only guys who have a chance are the sprinters. Everyone drafts in the peleton
all day, and then the sprinters blast away and get the glory.

Why do the other guys even bother turning up?

Harrow. 😕

Because sprinters are only good on flat stages, it is their only chance for glory. The others are
biding their time for the TT and the mountains. A chance for non-sprinters (in flat stages) is to
break away and solo for 100 to 200km to the finish which guys have tried to do the last few days
without success. But over the years, some have succeeded. Sprinters usually aren't any good at
100km+ solos. They can't win overall either.

GK

"RMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]... [snip]>

Quoted message said:

I recall one of Lance Armstrongs wins last year in the Pyrenees IIRC. He

was

Quoted message said:

riding with a couple of other riders <snip>

I think that was on Mt Ventoux vs Beloki, after Beloki's one and only attempt to drop Lance. Like
his "look" at Ulrich, a couple of years back,

a

Quoted message said:

real defining moment.

Oh, that was it. Riding with Ulrich when he looked at him, then stood up and took off. Ulrich tried
to respond but didn't have a chance. Lance rode on to win.

No point in riding in the peleton there, nor waiting for the 'final sprint'. If you don't have a
climber's stamina to keep attacking all the way up the climb the final 100m sprint is meaningless.

Cheers Peter

It's very early days I know....but I can't help but be impressed with how Ullrich is performing
atm....making this assumption on limited footage I know but he's placing very well and looks very
comfortable and no hint of the podge around the old middle as some unflattering pics have shown.

If he keeps this up he could well give Armstrong a run for his money as some have predicted.
Armstrong himself has said that Ullrich is a threat.

I'm enjoying the TdF so far and can't wait to watch the full stages on tv.

Cheers

John

Peter Signorini said:

"RMan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Signorini" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]... [snip]>

Quoted message said:

I recall one of Lance Armstrongs wins last year in the Pyrenees IIRC. He

was

Quoted message said:

riding with a couple of other riders <snip>

I think that was on Mt Ventoux vs Beloki, after Beloki's one and only attempt to drop Lance.
Like his "look" at Ulrich, a couple of years back,

a

Quoted message said:

real defining moment.

Oh, that was it. Riding with Ulrich when he looked at him, then stood up and took off. Ulrich
tried to respond but didn't have a chance. Lance rode on to win.

No point in riding in the peleton there, nor waiting for the 'final sprint'. If you don't have a
climber's stamina to keep attacking all the way up the climb the final 100m sprint is meaningless.

Cheers Peter

Shabby said:

Here's my answers to some of your questions:

Thanks indeedy.

Quoted message said:

T. Unless you can spin really fast, a 52 x 14 might not even win a D grade bunch sprint. They're
using 53x11 to 55x11 type gears, with cadences in the 100-130 range.

Ah, that explains why I never win any sprints (I'm actually in D grade). I'd like to believe it's
because I always run out of gears, yes, that must be it. :-)

Quoted message said:

<snip> Our track coach makes us do 400 metre flat out efforts out of the saddle, and towards
the end it becomes close to impossible unless you are in a huge gear).

Sounds like you're not that "Shabby" at all.

&roo Honorary Life Member, "D" Grade

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Andrew Swan
Ah, that explains why I never win any sprints (I'm actually in D grade). I'd like to believe it's
because I always run out of gears, yes, that must be it. :-)
[/B]

Just to clarify a bit, you need to be able to spin big gear. If you are really running out of gears, get another cog. But a lot of people make the mistake of putting it in a big gear and trying to wind it up. A 52x14 propels you at 60kph if you're doing 120rpm, so you might need a 12 or 13 to get you that slight bit faster, unless you like to spin. (From memory my max speeds were around 65 in D grade crits when I won - in a 53 x 13 which is around 120rpm.)

Your ideal sprint (assuming it's at least a couple of hundred metres long) is to hit your maximum cadence on or very close to the line. Sprinting isn't completely about going fast, you need to go fast at the right moment. Too big a gear means you'll miss the start of the sprint and it will all be over, too small means you have to change gears mid sprint to stop going backwards.

"Shabby" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andrew Swan said:

Ah, that explains why I never win any sprints (I'm actually in D

grade).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd like to believe it's because I always run out of gears, yes, that must be it. :-)

Just to clarify a bit, you need to be able to spin big gear. If you are really running out of
gears, get another cog. But a lot of people make the mistake of putting it in a big gear and
trying to wind it up. A 52x14 propels you at 60kph if you're doing 120rpm, so you might need a 12
or 13 to get you that slight bit faster, unless you like to spin. (From memory my max speeds were
around 65 in D grade crits when I won - in a 53 x 13 which is around 120rpm.)

Man that is some D grade crit. 65 kmh sprint in most grades will score you a win, sheesh, Cipo's max
was approx 70 kmh at Zolder last year.

[QUOTE][i]Man that is some D grade crit. 65 kmh sprint in most grades will score you a win, sheesh, Cipo's max
was approx 70 kmh at Zolder last year. [/B][/QUOTE]

D grade @ Glenvale Crescent, almost totally flat criterium course with a long wide finish. I had maximum speeds in the low 60's for a number of weeks until I got a win. Averages are around 37kph.

There's always a few people in D grade that should be in C, which makes the sprints nearly as fast. The main difference is the pace of the race leading up to them, which suits the sprinters as well. ie. Slow race, fast sprint.

Given that Chippo and friends ride 55 x 11's on the flatter finishes, if they only hit 70 they'd only have cadences just over 100. I think it's more like 75, which is a fair bit harder to get to on the flat.

Quoted message said:

white: best of the young drives (up to 25 years) time counts here

green: best sprinter, the one who has collected most points

white with red dots: is for the best climber (will be interesting, when the Alps and Pyrenees come
up). The rider who gets most points at the climbs will get it.

Yes, but why are they white, green, and white with red dots? Why not purple, brown, and blue with
pink stripes (for example)? There must be some historical reason for choosing those colours.

Quoted message said:

If a driver is national champion, he must wear the national champion trikot. If he is world
champion in road racing, he must wear the world champion trikot. If someone is world champion at
time trial, he must wear the world champion time trial jersey at a time trial, but never at a
regular road race.

Interesting. What about the riders who have the world champion "rainbow" stripes only on their
collars and the cuffs of their sleeves? What does that mean? Are they world champions in non-road
disciplines such as track cycling or MTBing?

&roo