Team Pursuit: What makes a rider crack



whoawhoa said:
really interesting stuff alex.

hope you don't mind sharing all your pursuit knowledge:D
Not at all - it's kinda fun really! I will never stop learning about this stuff;)
 
frenchyge said:
Great stuff! So, will this analysis be available in the next release of WKO+ ? :D

Doubtful - not many people would have much use for it, and it requires that the end-user have a fair bit of specific knowledge to get reasonable results.
 
Alex Simmons said:
I then posted a blog entry on this to explain in a little more detail:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2007/02/darth-vader-rides-teams-pursuit.html
So... here's a question on pursuit pacing. Judging from the the 2 graphs (Phil's v. Alex's), I'd guess that Alex has the greater VO2max, while Phil has the greater anaerobic capacity. Is that the reason why the two well-paced (blue) lines have such different shapes (Phil's rises quicker to a plateau, while Alex's builds slower and longer)? Alex, are you forced to ramp up a bit slower because of your less than spectacular AC, and find that your competitors are frequently attacking you hard at the onset of a race? Do riders try to determine their ideal pacing based on physiological characteristics, or is it just "get up to target speed quickly and then hang on?"
 
frenchyge said:
So... here's a question on pursuit pacing. Judging from the the 2 graphs (Phil's v. Alex's), I'd guess that Alex has the greater VO2max, while Phil has the greater anaerobic capacity. Is that the reason why the two well-paced (blue) lines have such different shapes (Phil's rises quicker to a plateau, while Alex's builds slower and longer)?
It looks that way, although my line does not reach the same absolute level of O2 deficit that Phil's does so I wouldn't necessarily draw that conclusion.

I'll start with VO2 Max:
Neither of us have undertaken formal lab VO2 Max tests (but as it so happens, Phil has recently employed a exercise physiology student at Sydney Uni and it looks like we'll both be able to do one at some stage soon). Still, a well paced pursuit is a pretty good proxy with the quasi-plateau in power attained being a reasonable indicator.

Let's see, in power terms:
Average power from the 120 second mark to the finish for the IPs:
Phil - 4.43 W/kg
Alex - 4.39 W/kg
so not much in it so it doesn't indicate I have higher VO2 Max (per kg).
(I have another file a few weeks later has me at 4.58W/kg for the same time period)

I can't really tell you the difference in VO2 Max terms as I don't know our relative efficiencies. For the purposes of this exercise, Andy assumed a 22.5% efficiency and since each plot uses the same number, it doesn't matter for comparing my rides to myself.

As to differences in AWC, I don't have Phil's power profile nor Critical Power data as validation for such an assumption of the potential difference between us but given we have established a limited VO2 Max difference and Phil attained a higher O2 deficit, then yours is a reasonable assumption.

Again, in power terms, for the first 30 seconds of the IP used:
Phil - 7.93 W/kg
Alex - 7.04 W/kg
(remeber of course these are pursuit starts and not all out efforts for 30 seconds)

I know it sounds a bit silly but the IP plots are shaped differently because that how we rode the event.
frenchyge said:
Alex, are you forced to ramp up a bit slower because of your less than spectacular AC
Quite possibly but perhaps I'm being overly conservative? The pursuit file in question was one of several such rides I could have chosen to plot. In this case it was a well paced pursuit done in training a few weeks before State championships (and as it turns out is my current PB time). I plotted another which shows a very similar profile but haven't done the others (which I will do, especially a couple of more recent efforts, to see if anything has changed).

I am aware of my AWC limitation but here's the rub - I have pretty good NMP (it's the high point in my power profile but it doesn't compete with the true track sprinters in my State - remembering I race/train with world level masters sprinters). That's where the start gets tricky for me - I am capable of putting myself into the red zone very easily.

frenchyge said:
and find that your competitors are frequently attacking you hard at the onset of a race?
I rarely have trouble with this. Partly because I'm attentive and also because my NMP is pretty good (and highly repeatable) so it takes some doing for me to get gapped sufficiently not to take advantage of the draft. My crit files show that repeatedly. Perhaps my competitors also have similar capacities? Also, it often pays to be the one that does the attacking;) .

frenchyge said:
Do riders try to determine their ideal pacing based on physiological characteristics, or is it just "get up to target speed quickly and then hang on?"
Smart riders/coaches would take an individual's characteristics into account. But that's where the art comes in. Race day motivation (done right) can play a big part in finding that something extra.

In general, you overshoot your target speed at the start but only slightly as otherwise you are wasting energy fighting wind resistance and will lose out in the final kilometre. Since you maintain some kinetic energy when crossing the finish line, there is some merit to pacing in a way that sees you slowly lose pace through the event. Around 1 sec/km perhaps, maybe less.

If anyone saw Sarah Ulmer's ride at the Olympics and in particular her breathing immediately following the event, then they'll know the result of thoroughly testing your MAOD.
 
Alex Simmons said:
It looks that way, although my line does not reach the same absolute level of O2 deficit that Phil's does so I wouldn't necessarily draw that conclusion.
Quite possibly I'm reading more into those lines than is appropriate, especially since the lines represent a 'paced' effort rather than a 'max' effort. What I'm seeing is that Phil's MAOD is higher than yours, which tells me that his AC is higher (or that you're holding something back). Little question about that. The reason that I wondered if you're VO2max were higher is that your aerobic capability is actually able to drive your O2 deficit downward while drafting in the team ride, while he is still riding at pVO2max or higher even while resting (and why he eventually cracks). That could be an aerodynamic or technique difference as well, I guess, but I was just curious.


Alex Simmons said:
Let's see, in power terms:
Average power from the 120 second mark to the finish for the IPs:
Phil - 4.43 W/kg
Alex - 4.39 W/kg
Hmmm.... and your O2 deficit is increasing more during that period than his (meaning you're riding farther above pVO2max). Since those graphs are absolute values, the power values need to be absolute as well for comparison. Is there a mass difference between you?


Alex Simmons said:
Again, in power terms, for the first 30 seconds of the IP used:
Phil - 7.93 W/kg
Alex - 7.04 W/kg
(remember of course these are pursuit starts and not all out efforts for 30 seconds)
That's clear from the steepness of the O2 deficit curves. He digs deeper from the start than you do, and that was the basis of my question. Is that by design, preference, or accident? With your high NMP, maybe a quicker launch would suit your abilities?


Alex Simmons said:
I know it sounds a bit silly but the IP plots are shaped differently because that how we rode the event.
Heh, I knew that. I was wondering whether the chicken came first, or the egg. ;) IOW, do riders pace the events in consideration of, or in spite of, their physiological attributes?


Alex Simmons said:
In general, you overshoot your target speed at the start but only slightly as otherwise you are wasting energy fighting wind resistance and will lose out in the final kilometre. Since you maintain some kinetic energy when crossing the finish line, there is some merit to pacing in a way that sees you slowly lose pace through the event. Around 1 sec/km perhaps, maybe less.
That seems like a fun physics exercise. Since it takes very little energy to maintain speed compared to that required for the initial acceleration, it does seem that starting fast and tailing off at the end would produce the best result for a given energy expenditure.

Last question: what's the Darth Vader reference? :p I looked hard for it, but failed. Something in MAOD? :confused:
 
frenchyge said:
Quite possibly I'm reading more into those lines than is appropriate, especially since the lines represent a 'paced' effort rather than a 'max' effort. What I'm seeing is that Phil's MAOD is higher than yours, which tells me that his AC is higher (or that you're holding something back). Little question about that. The reason that I wondered if you're VO2max were higher is that your aerobic capability is actually able to drive your O2 deficit downward while drafting in the team ride, while he is still riding at pVO2max or higher even while resting (and why he eventually cracks). That could be an aerodynamic or technique difference as well, I guess, but I was just curious.
I was riding behind a Mack truck. Check the photo. I also suspect I've become much more aero with my new bike/position. My technique at riding close isn't bad either.
frenchyge said:
Hmmm.... and your O2 deficit is increasing more during that period than his (meaning you're riding farther above pVO2max). Since those graphs are absolute values, the power values need to be absolute as well for comparison. Is there a mass difference between you?
Phil is 7kg lighter, maybe a touch more at the moment.
frenchyge said:
That's clear from the steepness of the O2 deficit curves. He digs deeper from the start than you do, and that was the basis of my question. Is that by design, preference, or accident? With your high NMP, maybe a quicker launch would suit your abilities?
Dunno. Maybe.
frenchyge said:
Heh, I knew that. I was wondering whether the chicken came first, or the egg. ;) IOW, do riders pace the events in consideration of, or in spite of, their physiological attributes?
I'd say more likely the latter since most prob don't have the data, although some broad assumptions can be made with a stop watch.
frenchyge said:
That seems like a fun physics exercise. Since it takes very little energy to maintain speed compared to that required for the initial acceleration, it does seem that starting fast and tailing off at the end would produce the best result for a given energy expenditure.

Last question: what's the Darth Vader reference? :p I looked hard for it, but failed. Something in MAOD? :confused:
I think for some strange reason it had something to do with breathing difficulties....;)