Time trial cadence

Discussion in 'Cycling Training' started by Doug williams, Apr 25, 2003.

  1. Doug williams

    Doug williams New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    I have just completed my third 10 mile TT. I maintain a fairly high cadence throughout the TT and in training (90 to 100). Apart from on loger training rides (50 miles +) I rarely feel any discomfort or burning in my legs. Even after a 10 mile TT at av HR of 175 (92% of max) I cannot feel any buring in my legs. However, where I do suffer is in my heart and lungs. On uphill stretches where my HR may increase to 180 (95% MHR) I am gasping for breath and my chest tightens.

    I am following a simple training plan and one of my turbo interval sessions is for strength (6 x 4 mins at 90% MHR/cadence 70rpm with three mins easy pedalling between work). My legs ache at the end of these sessions but my breathing is regular. I have been trying this technique on the road and find that although my HR is 90%+ my breathing is much more relaxed than when I pedal at a higher cadence. I am now considering dropping my TT cadence to 80 RPM. Anyone have any thoughts on this.
     
    Tags:


  2. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    The way things have been lately, I'm sure this will start another raging debate.

    There is an optimal cadence for everyone, and as with other things, it's individual. 80-100 rpm suits almost everyone.

    Your fitness level seems pretty good, as you were able to hold 92% of pr max which is a high latcate threshold. Lesser-trained riders might only hold 85-88% of pr max with lesser thresholds.

    Holding 92% of pr max is good for a 40k tt. Try to bump your heart rate up and hold 95% of pr max. This would put you at around a 180 heart rate. My max is 180 and for a ten I will try to hold 175 bpm.

    Tens are so short, that if you can handle the lactate, you should really be pouring on the afterburners from the start. You need more pacing strategy for a 25.

    As for the cadence:

    You have good aerobic conditioning. If you did the 10 at a cadence of 80 rpm, you would have had to rely more on muscle strength to power the effort, indicating a lower level of aerobic fitness.

    Lots of people who time trial have good aerobic fitness but still go down to a bigger gear and lower cadence because they want to recruit the legs to the maximum (low cadence, higher force).

    It is not considered wise to dip below 75-80 rpm because your legs will tire earlier because of the extra force needed (strength).

    That's why when you see a pro spinning at 105 rpm at 31 mph, you can begin to understand and fully appreciate the extreme levels of aerobic power they have.

    Think about it.

    Here is how you can figure out what to do. Go up a climb or do a short (5 minute) time trial. You can do it on your turbo (probably the best) if you like.

    Go at a very hard pace, one that will have you explode at the end of the effort.

    When you start to crack, you must try to hold the pace. It will be very difficult to hold the pace when you start cracking, but be dilligent in holding it as long as possible. Now for the kicker: When it gets tough, shift to a harder gear and hold the same cadence. If you were in a 53x15 on the flats, go into your 14 cog and see what happens. Recover. Try it again. This time, when you start to blow, try to increase your cadence in the same gear (e.g. 53x15)5-10 rpm.

    What happened? Was it easier to spin or mash the gear? Riders with excellent aerobic conditioning will move up on their saddles and spin to increase power. Riders with excellent leg strength will not be able to spin, but will be able to turn the bigger gear with lower cadence.

    If you you did well in the bigger gear, you should maximize your potential by doing high-cadence aerobic intervals of at least 5 minutes in length at 100-105 rpm

    If you went faster when you increased your cadence, you have excellent aerobic power. This means your legs are not as strong because you relied on your heart to increase power rather than your legs.

    Work on leg strength.

    Isolated leg training will increase your leg strength tremendously and greatly improve your pedal stroke. ILT is highly recomended. You will greatly improve as a rider if you do isolated leg training. Climb steep hills at any rpm. You can go as low as 25-40 rpm, but it will put a huge load on your knees.

    Just a guess but I'll bet your leg strength is the weak link.

    Time trialling is about the fastest speed. All riders should use whatever cadence they can hold that gets them going the fastest.

    Sounds like you are progressing well as a rider!!! Keep it up and don't stop pushing yourself.

    Good luck!!!
     
  3. Doug williams

    Doug williams New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2002
    Messages:
    12
    Likes Received:
    0
    Excellent advice J Mat thank you. Could you expand on what you mean by ILT?

    Although I use the Internet every day, it is only at times like this that you appreciate its scope and usefulness - I am in England and someone in California I have never met, has taken the time to help me out! Brilliant!
     
  4. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dude, I gotta crash for a while. Been writing code for 14 hours a day for the last week. I'm going to do a post on ILT very soon. It's isolated leg training. Riding with one leg. I've talked about it in more detail on one of the knee injury posts. Check it out. It's awesome!!!

    Later!!!
     
  5. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    Doug Williams wrote:
    I have just completed my third 10 mile TT. I maintain a fairly high cadence throughout the TT and in training (90 to 100). Apart from on loger training rides (50 miles +) I rarely feel any discomfort or burning in my legs. Even after a 10 mile TT at av HR of 175 (92% of max) I cannot feel any buring in my legs. However, where I do suffer is in my heart and lungs. On uphill stretches where my HR may increase to 180 (95% MHR) I am gasping for breath and my chest tightens.

    >at high cadences, there's an increased cardiovascular strain, and a correspondingly lower force requirement at the pedals. With an effort, so close to your HRmax, it's perfectly understandable that it hurts and you have a tight chest. This happens irrespective of absolute fitness (but fitter riders are riding at higher power outputs).

    >thermodynamic efficiency decreases at higher cadences and increases at lower cadences at a constant power output. However, as absolute power output increases, so does the most efficient cadence. The most efficient cadence is the one that minimises your VO2 (cardovascular effort) and also your HR. For power outputs at ~ TT type efforts the most efficient cadence is quite low (~ 60 - 80 revs/min). However, your optimal cadence will be higher, this should be self selected.


    I am following a simple training plan and one of my turbo interval sessions is for strength (6 x 4 mins at 90% MHR/cadence 70rpm with three mins easy pedalling between work). My legs ache at the end of these sessions but my breathing is regular. I have been trying this technique on the road and find that although my HR is 90%+ my breathing is much more relaxed than when I pedal at a higher cadence. I am now considering dropping my TT cadence to 80 RPM. Anyone have any thoughts on this.

    >your best bet is to find the most comfortable cadence possible, that allows you to ride at your highest average power output. IOW, don't concentrate on what your cadence is, concentrate on keeping your power output up and your cadence will follow.

    >on a training note, doing such intervals, so early in the season might not be warranted. It's possible (depending on your goals) that much longer, more moderate intensity intervals would be more beneficial, such as one to two x 20 - 40 mins @ just below 25m TT HR repeated once or twice a week.

    Ric
     
  6. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    At the risk of upsetting J-Mat, isolated leg training, is neither warranted or useful training prescription. Unless you happen to only have one leg.

    Ric
     
  7. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    Some points:

    HR relative (at TT pace) to HR max isn't actually an indicator of fitness level. HR can vary for many external reasons at a given power output (e.g., pop loads of caffiene pills and it'll go up, ride really hard for several to fatigue and it'll go down at the same power).

    Rather than trying to increase your HR at a specific effort, it's more important to increase your power output over time with training -- i.e., get fitter. As this happens there'll be a gradual reduction in HR at a specific power. HR is a dependent variable, whereas power is the independent variable.

    As regards pacing, even for an event as 'short' as a 10m TT you need to pace it (although it will be at a higher effort than a 25m TT). Pacing is required from about 90-secs onwards, such that a 1-km TT is all-out with plenty of fade, but a 3km pursuit needs careful pacing for optimum output. Having looked extensively at power output traces from a wide variety level of riders, it's apparent that most start too hard, which causes them to fade badly and record a worse time than with careful pacing.

    Ric
     
  8. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is where a good warm up comes in. You can complete that 'bad' first part of the race before the race starts.
     
  9. Shibumi

    Shibumi New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    0
    Ric
    You say that ILT is "...neither warranted or useful training." Care to elaborate? Lance and Chris Carmichael advocate it in their book 'the Lance Armstrong Performance Program', which is a good enough recommendation for me! My coach has got me doing some, and I can see the point of it. It has made me think more about 'pulling' rather than just 'pushing' on the pedal, and I feel that it has improved my action. Isolating muscles and body actions is surely an accepted training principle in many sports?
     
  10. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    the idea of isolated leg training isn't strength related, but too 'force' you into pedalling in 'circles', i.e., you need to pull up from bottom dead centre to top dead centre as the opposing leg 'isn't' there.

    However, research using instrumented force pedals (see Coyle et al., 1991: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1997818&dopt=Abstract), shows that cyclists stomp/mash (whatever term you want to use) on pedals, in that forces are applied from TDC to BDC. There was a small amount of force applied from BDC to TDC, but, the subjects were divided into two groups and it was the lower category riders that tried to pull up, whereas the better riders didn't.

    These forces were analysed during both TT efforts of ~1-hr and during isolated leg exercises. The lower cat riders pulled up more.

    In terms of isolating specific movements this has been tried in sports that require fine motor skills, however, this practice has (i believe) been discared and people are taught to do the whole skill in one go. Cycling, however, is a gross motor sport, such that when efficiency is compared between the very elite, average racers, and people who (e.g.) just ride to the shops there's very little difference. This is because your feet/legs are pretty much fixed and they can only go up and down. on the other hand a sport such as running requires far more motor skills as there's nothing to constrain your legs in any particular plane.

    ILT is one of those things that has been around since the beginning of cycle training (as far as i'm aware), but only now is it being realised that it's pretty useless.

    Ric
     
  11. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    Greetings!!!

    If I had to think of one form of training that has made one of the
    biggest improvements in me as a rider, it would undoughtably be
    Isolated Leg Training (ILT).

    ILT will not improve your aerobic power or VO2 max. It makes you pedal and produce more power throughout the entire pedal stroke. It makes you stronger. You will last longer on hard efforts before your legs give out.

    ILT will make your legs very strong. After a while, on the road, you may find that you can push a gear higher than normal without any other increases in aerobic or anaerobic power. Power is transmitted through the legs to the pedals. ILT makes everything in your legs better, healthier and stronger.

    ILT is the best exercise for riders to rehabilitate leg injuries, especially riders who have been in casts and suffered considerable atrophy. I've seen where some professionals have done re-hab in swimming pools and the like. What a waste!!! You are a rider. If you broke your leg or pelvis and have an atrophy problem, you need to be on your trainer doing easy rides and ILT!!!

    If you are a 40/60 or 45/55 rider (L/R leg output), ILT will help to bring you into a proper "50/50" balance.

    You will notice an considerable increase in muscular hypertrophy (growth) in your legs, hips and butt. The hips and butt are especially critical for time trialing. ILT will pack on substantial muscle in the hip flexors of the upper thigh. This additional, sport specific muscle, can be recruited in normal riding to apply more pedal force, and help to increase speed/power output.

    I read about ILT for a while and blew it off. I was into more "glamorous" forms of training. Jamming at 30 mph is an adrenaline rush. How could riding with one leg on a trainer be fun?

    Reading about improving "pedaling efficiency" bored the shit out of me. I used to think: "Whatever. Let's get to the good stuff."

    It wasn't until I finally decided to listen and open my mind to the possibilities that I tried ILT.

    I'm not a pro rider. I am pretty strong though. Where I live, there are many fast riders. I have encountered very few people in 13 years of road riding and racing that could drop me (on the flats that is!!!). I usually do the dropping.

    Finally, after many wasted years, I decided to do an ILT workout one day. I figured I would breeze through it, say what a load of crap it is, and never look back.

    I put my bike on the turbo (actually a mag unit). With light mag resistance and in a 39x21, I started out at 60 rpm. I was ready to die at about 30 seconds!!! I think I made it to 55 seconds before I cracked completely!!!

    How could this be??? If I can hurt most people out there, how could I only mange a humiliating 55 seconds with one leg???

    I like a good fight. This ILT thing really threw me for a loop. It humbled me greatly. Determined not to let this form of training kick my ass, I instead embraced it. I came back for more. I saw rapid improvement, dramatic improvement, almost on a per workout basis!!!

    After a few workouts, I noticed that riding over any terrain and at any speed was easier than before. It is highly effective.

    If you want to sell yourself short, don't do ILT. ILT is hard. You will not experience high heart rates typically. 65%-75% of max heart rate is very common. Even with these low pr's however, you will experience a considerable suffering factor, a suffering you have never felt or experienced as a rider before.

    If you really want to know what a leg feels like when it gets tired, do ILT. I have been able to hold 89% of maximum heart rate with one leg for several minutes before. Think of how much muscle had to be recruited to hit that high of a heart rate!!!

    Just give it a shot. When you are dying in your 39x21 or 39x23 at 30 seconds, think about me in my 53x11 with my mag unit maxed out on the highest resistance setting for 5 minutes!!! That my friends, is an substantial improvement!!! You will get to a high level very quickly if you stick with it.

    If you are rehabbing an injury, use light resistance. Peaking for a big race? Max out the resistance. Healthy and want to get stronger? Progressively increase the resistance. This means more tire pressure on the turbo roller, maxing out your mag unit, and using bigger gears.

    ILT is an important component of a well-rounded training program. You must still do your other training. A good way to fit it in is to do ILT first on the turbo, then do your other intensity training. You could go straight into other intensity work on the trainer, or unhook your bike and hit the road. Whatever you do, always do ILT on the turbo. It can be done on the road, but the forces of forward motion make it easier to "cheat" at the bottom and top of the pedal stroke. Safety and practicality are other considerations for doing it on your trainer.

    In closing, all riders will benefit from ILT. Pro's who are so highly developed that their coaches are looking for that last .5%-1% of genetic potential and performance gain would be wise to look here. It is a "secret" weapon of the highest order.

    Try it!!!
     
  12. maarten

    maarten New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    0
    Picked out two things out of J-Mats post

    You will notice an considerable increase in muscular hypertrophy (growth) in your legs, hips and butt. The hips and butt are especially critical for time trialing. ILT will pack on substantial muscle in the hip flexors of the upper thigh. This additional, sport specific muscle, can be recruited in normal riding to apply more pedal force, and help to increase speed/power output.

    comment:
    Hypertrophy is the goal of bodybuilders not cyclists. What is the increase in performance as more muscle isn't necessarily better(It can be of course).


    Just give it a shot. When you are dying in your 39x21 or 39x23 at 30 seconds, think about me in my 53x11 with my mag unit maxed out on the highest resistance setting for 5 minutes!!! That my friends, is an substantial improvement!!! You will get to a high level very quickly if you stick with it.

    Comment:
    53x11 for 5 minutes this doesn't say much. What was the effort you could do? Big gear isn't necessarily faster. You or at least I can ride 53x11 for half an hour(or way more) its only that I would go faster in a smaller gear. I have a Friend who rode a 5k stretch of 6% uphill on the 52x16 gear at the age of 16, he rode up it that's all(it was for a bet no one expected him to accept) the day after he was more then twice as fast in a normal gear 39x19to21.

    Bigger gear doesn't mean faster or more economic. I have outsprint lots of guy who where proud to push 53x11 its only that I on my 52x13 was faster.
     
  13. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    maarten:

    Hypertrophy is the byproduct of this training, not the goal. ILT is so effective, you will pack on some muscle whether you like it or not.

    You will not look like a bodybuilder or pack on 20 pounds either!!!

    53x11 DOES say a lot with ILT bro. Why don't you try it before you dismiss it. I can easily push a 53x11 with strong head or crosswinds at 20-24 mph. for an hour. Probably a lot longer than that. I used to do it for strength all the time. I usually did 40 km at a time to help time trial strength.

    I guarantee that if you have never done ILT before, you would not be able to work a 53x11. Not even close. You could push a 60x11 for 2 hours outside and die in the small ring after a minute or two on a trainer doing ILT!!!

    You would be lucky to hold 60 rpm in a 39x21 on a wind, mag, or fluid trainer for a minute.

    After a period of ILT training maarten, you might find that instead of working your 13 cog in a sprint you might be able to start using a 12!!!

    When you can't do a minute in a small gear and after time you are in your biggest gear you have and your resistance unit has gone from its easiest setting to its hardest setting, you my friend, have gotten stronger!!! It's no different that starting weights and benching 100 pounds. After a while, you can bench 150 pounds. You are stronger!!!

    If you look at Lance Armstrong's legs from pre-cancer and now today, you will notice a signicant increase in leg muscle. Especially in the hip flexors and leg bicep (hamstrings). Only ILT will develop muscle like this. Lance never did ILT pre cancer. He was an good rider before, but never close to level of champion he is today. He couldn't even finish his early Tours!!! Now he is going for 5 in a row.

    Go to analyticcycling.com. See what increasing hamstring, glute and hip flexors will do for performance.

    ILT is the best(only)way to develop strong thigh extensors!!!

    check it out:
    http://analyticcycling.com/menus/../PedalImpMuscleStrength_Page.html

    Also maarten. ILT is not about putting out power or speed in itself. It strengthens and enhances muscle coordination and motor recruitment so one day you will be able to push harder and put out more speed and power.

    Later!!!
     
  14. Shibumi

    Shibumi New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2003
    Messages:
    117
    Likes Received:
    0
    I'm with J-Mat on this one. My coach had me doing ILT tonight. It was my third ever session. I can now do it a lot better than the previous two occasions. I was doing 30 second intervals, three on each leg, repeated twice. I'm now up to 85rpm and three gears higher. Maybe my legs are not getting stronger, or my action isn't getting better, but it certainly makes a change and is a welcome break from some of the lactate tolerance intervals I've been doing!
     
  15. maarten

    maarten New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Quote"
    It's no different that starting weights and benching 100 pounds. After a while, you can bench 150 pounds. You are stronger!!!

    com:
    This is a gain that already will occur after a short period of excersize and is based upon better neuro muscular system and maybe a very tiny part based on extra muscle strength.

    After a period of ILT training maarten, you might find that instead of working your 13 cog in a sprint you might be able to start using a 12!!!
    com:
    I can use a 12 or 11 but why should I as I am faster on a 13 then all the guys on a 12 or 11


    He was an good rider before, but never close to level of champion he is today. He couldn't even finish his early Tours!!! Now he is going for 5 in a row.
    com:
    He was world champion before now he's to afraid to start because he's not good enough. Does this make sense? Of course not just as what you are saying.


    I haven't commented on the use non use of ILT as I haven't studied enough jet just commentend on your so called "evidence" which is far off from real evidence just some strong words and lots of even presumed correlation which is then even presented as causality(correlation isn't causality keep this in mind)
     
  16. J-MAT

    J-MAT New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2003
    Messages:
    331
    Likes Received:
    0
    Maarten:

    I used the freeweight exmple since most people can easily understand the analogy.

    Stronger muscles can produce more power; Power is defined as work divided by time (W/T).
    Work, or pedal force, is dependent on muscular strength.

    Increasing power is the goal of all competitive riders.

    ILT will not improve aerobic power, increase your lactate threshold, improve lactate tolerance, etc. You must still do your other training. Don't think ILT is all you have to do to be fast!!!

    ILT will make your legs stronger and healthier and help to increase your power output. Power is transmitted through the legs to the pedals.

    If there are any "weak links" in the legs starting in the buttocks and ending at the toes, you will not put out the power you might otherwise be capable of.

    A nagging injury, muscle imbalances (45/55), etc. might prevent you from putting out that extra 20-60 watts you are capable of.

    ILT will help you develop to your full potential.
    ILT is potent training!!!

    Maarten, several things are accomplished by resistance/strength training. ILT is a form of strength training.

    1) Improved neuromuscular (NM) efficiency that allows better communication beteween the central nervous system (CNS = brain & spinal cord)and the working muscle.

    2) Increased number and size of myofibrils per muscle fiber (actin & myosin). This is responsible for muscular hypertrophy (growth).

    3) Increased capillary density.

    4) Increased amounts and strength of connective tissue, including tendons and ligaments.

    Hypertrophy is the most obvious effect of strength training. Anyone who has gotten bigger from lifting weights has thicker, stronger, and bigger muscle fibers. Bigger muscles are stronger than smaller muscles. This is a scientific fact and cannot be denied.

    Think of the strength difference between average men and women. Who's stronger??? Who's more powerful??? Why???

    Does anyone think you can bench press 400 pounds with only improved NM efficiency and only a "tiny" increase in strength???

    Resistance training also strengthens the bones. If it were somehow possible to bench 400 lbs with only NM efficiency and a "tiny" strength increase(as you say maarten), you might snap the bones in your arms trying to lift that heavy a weight!!!

    Additionally, it is important to understand that a bicycle locked into a trainer becomes a strength/power tool just as machines in a gym are strength/power tools as well.

    Mechanical devices that humans can interface with to produce work differ mostly in their appearance!!!

    Maarten, I should have stated using a 12 cog at your 13 cog cadence. Would you be faster spinning a 53x12 at your 53x13 cadence??? That's what I'm talking about!!!

    I'm not sure what you mean by L.A. being "afraid to start because he's not good enough." He seems pretty strong to me!!! LeMond, Fignon, and Ullrich all won tours at young ages. Armstrong didn't even finish his first TDF's. Cancer changed him for the better as a human.

    It's only when you realize how precious, fragile, and short life really is that you start to live and make the most of it. Armstrong had the talent all along, he just didn't maximize it. As a person and a rider, he has come a very long way. Even if you don't like him, his determination and fortitude cannot be denied.

    Thanks for showing us what courage is Lance!!!

    Finally, maarten, why don't you "study" ILT a little more and see for yourself if it works!!!

    I learned about ILT from San Diego-based coach and rider Dr. Arnie Baker M.D.

    He has written the best book on training I have ever seen. "Smart Cycling" (ISBN 0-684-82243-1) is the book to get to educate yourself on ILT.

    If you want to know what his credentials are, listen up:

    1) Dr. Baker is a USCF coach and practicing physician.

    2) Dr. Baker has coached racers to more than 50 U.S. National Championships and dozens of U.S. records.

    3) Dr. Baker is an elite category 1 racer, and a multiple National Champion and Multiple National Record holder.

    Let's see. A medical doctor who is an elite cat 1 racer, a multiple champion and RECORD HOLDER, and has coached more than 50 National Champions, including DOZENS OF RECORD HOLDERS!!!

    There is something about an author who is a mulitple National Record holder and who has coached mulitple National Record holders.

    National Record holder. I can't get enough of the title "National Record holder." So fast, that you not only won, but set a new National Record!!!
    Not a National Record in a small, tiny coutry with a small cycling population, but the United States: A country with close to 300 million people, and a country that has produced 7 (soon 8?) Tour victories in the last 17 years!!! That's fast!!!

    Maybe it's silly to get my information from a guy like this, but it works for me!!!


    Later!!!
     
  17. ric_stern/RST

    ric_stern/RST New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2002
    Messages:
    3,866
    Likes Received:
    1
    J-Mat wrote:

    Stronger muscles can produce more power; Power is defined as work divided by time (W/T).
    Work, or pedal force, is dependent on muscular strength.

    >Again, I'll state that for endurance riding and racing increased strength is not a requirement. Age, gender and health matched individuals can produce the same force as trained endurance athletes. There's a stack of evidence (and even by American researchers!) to support this.


    Increasing power is the goal of all competitive riders.
    >agreed


    ILT will not improve aerobic power, increase your lactate threshold, improve lactate tolerance, etc. You must still do your other training. Don't think ILT is all you have to do to be fast!!!

    >so what does it do?


    ILT will make your legs stronger and healthier and help to increase your power output. Power is transmitted through the legs to the pedals.

    >How does it make your legs stronger? I ask this in all seriousness, because there isn't any data to back this up. How does it make your legs healthier -- is ILT suggested for people who have leg disease/disability and are in hospital?

    A nagging injury, muscle imbalances (45/55), etc. might prevent you from putting out that extra 20-60 watts you are capable of.

    >muscle 'imbalances' occur all the time -- small changes such as these are normal


    ILT will help you develop to your full potential.
    ILT is potent training!!!

    >HOW?


    Maarten, several things are accomplished by resistance/strength training. ILT is a form of strength training.

    1) Improved neuromuscular (NM) efficiency that allows better communication beteween the central nervous system (CNS = brain & spinal cord)and the working muscle.

    >cycling requires very little motor skill - it's a gross motor skill sport. Differences in efficiency are very small even between people who ride to the shops and win the TdF

    3) Increased capillary density.
    >increased capillary density isn't really something that happens with resistance/weight training. That happens with aerobic/endurance training

    Think of the strength difference between average men and women. Who's stronger??? Who's more powerful??? Why???

    >agreed. but weaker women can beat stronger men. It's aerobic power that's important for cycling not strength


    Additionally, it is important to understand that a bicycle locked into a trainer becomes a strength/power tool just as machines in a gym are strength/power tools as well.

    >no it doesn't (strength). As i have repeatedly stated i suggest that you look at Hills Force velocity curve and stop using the terms power and strength interchangeably.


    I learned about ILT from San Diego-based coach and rider Dr. Arnie Baker M.D.

    >Arnie Baker is a medical doctor, not an exercise physiologist (as far as i'm aware). If i want medical advice i'll go to a doctor, on the other hand if i want sport science advice i'll go somewhere else.



    He has written the best book on training I have ever seen. "Smart Cycling" (ISBN 0-684-82243-1) is the book to get to educate yourself on ILT.

    >nothing against Arnie's book -- but perhaps familiarising yourself with the studies that he draws on would be a better option. Read the primary research


    Not a National Record in a small, tiny coutry with a small cycling population, but the United States: A country with close to 300 million people, and a country that has produced 7 (soon 8?) Tour victories in the last 17 years!!! That's fast!!!

    > so what about the primary researchers in your country (e.g., Andrew Coggan PhD) who don't believe in ILT or weight training?

    Ric
     
  18. 2LAP

    2LAP New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,265
    Likes Received:
    0
    Agreed with Ric on this one. We seem to be confusing strength and power quite a lot. ITL training is not to useful, unless you have one leg or you have a broken pedal/crank on one side!

    If ILT improves neuromuscular efficency it improves it for cycling with one leg, does it have any transfer to two legged cycling? All of the benefits mentioned are also the benefits of normal cycling (i.e. with two legs) and I would strongly argue that greater gains will be made from cycling with two legs. So why bother with ILT, other than for fun.

    I know where I will invest my time!!!!
     
  19. maarten

    maarten New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2002
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    0
    quote:
    Resistance training also strengthens the bones. If it were somehow possible to bench 400 lbs with only NM efficiency and a "tiny" strength increase(as you say maarten), you might snap the bones in your arms trying to lift that heavy a weight!!!

    com:
    I never said 400 where did you get this, just trying, then try again? Fact is that when starting weight training your performance gets higher very fast and that almost all of this better performance is due to neuro benefits not stronger muscles

    quote:
    I'm not sure what you mean by L.A. being "afraid to start because he's not good enough." He seems pretty strong to me!!! LeMond, Fignon, and Ullrich all won tours at young ages. Armstrong didn't even finish his first TDF's. Cancer changed him for the better as a human.

    It's only when you realize how precious, fragile, and short life really is that you start to live and make the most of it. Armstrong had the talent all along, he just didn't maximize it. As a person and a rider, he has come a very long way. Even if you don't like him, his determination and fortitude cannot be denied.

    Thanks for showing us what courage is Lance!!!

    comment:
    He avoids world championships and then you could say because he's afraid. This is just to show what a stupid reult you can pull from some events. I wanted to open your eyes to show you the reasoning errors you made therefor I will further elaborate on this.


    quote:
    Armstrong didn't even finish his first TDF's. Cancer changed him for the better as a human.
    Comment:
    So he didn't finish? Lots of rider do this because they haven't trained for it(age) or they have another training plan.

    He was an good rider before, but never close to level of champion he is today. He couldn't even finish his early Tours!!! Now he is going for 5 in a row.

    Comment:
    He was world champion before. And you want to make it look like that ILT training made him win the Tour (correlation causality(read that again). One Lance Used as you stated ILT after being ill this doesn't mean its usefull also for peole who aren't ill.

    Its not ILT that made him win the Tour. Its a lot of things combined that made him this like team strength, focusing the overal training on the tour, beiing ill!!(which made him loose some of his triathlon muscle kilo's who held him back on the bike)


    If you want to make ILT look good then supply proof. Don't base your evidence on I feel and some things like X uses or used it and wins Y and Z this doesn't mean he won Y and Z because of X.

    You are presuming causality where there is no proof for it that is in no way impressing me.

    quote:
    3) Dr. Baker is an elite category 1 racer, and a multiple National Champion and Multiple National Record holder.
    comment:
    Beiing able to ride fast doesn't mean you are a credible source. With all respect I got a mate with several records stacks of gold medals and riding for a TT2 but as a coach he would be useless. On the other hand there are excellent coaches who are poor atletes themselves.

    quote:
    Not a National Record in a small, tiny coutry with a small cycling population, but the United States: A country with close to 300 million people, and a country that has produced 7 (soon 8?) Tour victories in the last 17 years!!! That's fast!!!

    comment:
    Usa is big population wise, but the competitive cycling population is limited which also limited in quality seen world wide. Also I Don't see what a endurance and tactics performance as winning the tour the France is as a proof of the level of the record your source holds.



    Refelction:
    I have been on the podium of national championshipsmyself, I have beaten lots off guys who turned pro or already rode for a TT when I've beaten them. But this in no way is proof for me as beiing a good atlete or a good coach(this would be way to much honour based upon the evidence used to back the case)

    With all respect ILT may be good But the way you try to proof things isn't convincing me(and lots of other people I am afraid)
     
  20. steve

    steve Administrator
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2001
    Messages:
    5,255
    Likes Received:
    211
    Maarten:
    The USA seem to get the bulk their ranking from two riders. Two riders in the top ten Lance and Tyler, you then have to goto 130th to find Fred Rodriguez. They have a lot of riders picking up scrap points around 4-500th+ position, most of these 'pro's' :D would only ride the shitty domestic races.

    http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/?id=roadrankings2003

    How high would they rank without lance?

    1 Italy 13,493.20 pts
    2 Spain 10,678.48
    3 Germany 7,060.00
    4 France 6,792.00
    5 Australia 5,503.00
    6 Netherlands 5,446.70
    7 U.S.A. 5,286.10
    8 Belgium 5,270.85
    9 Switzerland 4,880.55
    10 Denmark 3,964.00

    J-Matt:
    Not many people here care about racing in the USA. America happens to have one of the greatest ever riders currently riding, that doesn't mean the country as a whole is a strong cycling nation, its far from it.
     
Loading...
Loading...