Torque wrenches

So "S o r n i" <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You're full of [censored].

Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?

My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I
figured I should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I had
been building wheels for several years at that point
including working at The Cove Bike Shop and a run of several
hundred for Kona and found that the gauge was telling me
what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any problems
winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I wrenched
with no torque wrench and on wheels I built.

From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught
that your breathing comes from your center and your center
and hands connect in an unbroken line of energy. I practiced
for hours a day for years to become aware of this and
compared to the minute adjustments required to get even a
passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat less
tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I was 13
so playing the bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were
always part of the same thing for me.

I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that not
using a torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't
ego and when I'm not sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick
up a torque wrench. That just doesn't happen very often. ok?

jeffb

On Wed, 07 Apr 2004 19:50:07 GMT, jeffbonny <[email hidden]> wrote:

<So "S o r n i" <[email hidden]> says: < <>>
You're full of [censored]. <> <>Hmmm. Who has more credibility
here? <> < <My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a
shop I figured I <should get a spoke tension gauge so I did.
I had been building wheels <for several years at that point
including working at The Cove Bike <Shop and a run of
several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge <was
telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have any
<problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on bikes I
wrenched <with no torque wrench and on wheels I built. <
<From an early age I studied the upright bass and was taught
that your <breathing comes from your center and your center
and hands connect in <an unbroken line of energy. I
practiced for hours a day for years to <become aware of this
and compared to the minute adjustments required <to get even
a passable sound with the bow feeling torque is somewhat
<less tenuous. I started racing and working on bikes when I
was 13 so <playing the bass and riding and wrenching and
skiing were always part <of the same thing for me. < <I took
exception to Peter C saying across the board that not using
a <torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it isn't ego and
when I'm not <sure or I feel "unconnected" I'll pick up a
torque wrench. That just <doesn't happen very often. <ok?

I believe both of you have it right.

As an aside, I've only known one upright bass player. I
always thought he was a bit on the wimpy side, on the other
hand </groan> I could hardly pull on doz strings and get any
sound... he practiced to Eric Dolphy.

jeffbonny said:

So "S o r n i" <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You're full of [censored].

Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?

My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I
figured I should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I
had been building wheels for several years at that
point including working at The Cove Bike Shop and a run
of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't
have any problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey
on bikes I wrenched with no torque wrench and on wheels
I built.

From an early age I studied the upright bass and was
taught that your breathing comes from your center and
your center and hands connect in an unbroken line of
energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to become
aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments
required to get even a passable sound with the bow
feeling torque is somewhat less tenuous. I started racing
and working on bikes when I was 13 so playing the bass
and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part of
the same thing for me.

I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that
not using a torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it
isn't ego and when I'm not sure or I feel "unconnected"
I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just doesn't happen
very often. ok?

Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many fewer
words 🙂 without resorting to profane insults.

Bill "I beg to differ not same as You're full of [censored]" S.

So "S o r n i" <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many
fewer words 🙂

If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words please
edit it. Without a hint of sarcasm I would be grateful.
Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear.

Quoted message said:

without resorting to profane insults.

When you attack with broad and inaccurate statements you get
what you get. FWIW I mostly agree with the guy and "begging
to differ" on this one thing does not mean I think he's full
of [censored] on everything. Far from it.

jeffb

jeffbonny <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

So "S o r n i" <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You're full of [censored].

Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?

My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I
figured I should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I
had been building wheels for several years at that
point including working at The Cove Bike Shop and a run
of several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge
was telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't
have any problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey
on bikes I wrenched with no torque wrench and on wheels
I built.

From an early age I studied the upright bass and was
taught that your breathing comes from your center and
your center and hands connect in an unbroken line of
energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to become
aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments
required to get even a passable sound with the bow
feeling torque is somewhat less tenuous. I started racing
and working on bikes when I was 13 so playing the bass
and riding and wrenching and skiing were always part of
the same thing for me.

I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that
not using a torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it
isn't ego and when I'm not sure or I feel "unconnected"
I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just doesn't happen
very often. ok?

jeffb

Dear Jeff,

You're full of [censored].

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

So [email hidden] (Carl Fogel) says:

Quoted message said:

Dear Jeff,

You're full of [censored].

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

specifically or just in general?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Jeffbonny
So [email hidden] (Carl Fogel) says:

Quoted message said:

Dear Jeff,

You're full of ****.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

specifically or just in general?

Dear Jeff,

"If you think I could convey what I did in fewer
words please edit it. Without a hint of sarcasm
I would be grateful."

"Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear."
--Jeff Bonny on his "You're full of ****" post

Hmm . . . your phrase and position don't seem to
be as clear as you insist. First you took a few posts
to explain it, and now you can't seem to understand it.

If your post breaks under actual use, perhaps you
should learn to use a literary torque wrench and
not let your ego get in the way?

Let's see--yes, that's just about tight enough . . .
maybe another notch? No . . . There!

Carl Fogel

In article <[email hidden]>, sorni@bite-
me.san.rr.com says...

Quoted message said:

jeffbonny said:

So "S o r n i" <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

> You're full of [censored].

Hmmm. Who has more credibility here?

My hands have rarely let me down. When I owned a shop I
figured I should get a spoke tension gauge so I did. I
had been building wheels for several years at that point
including working at The Cove Bike Shop and a run of
several hundred for Kona and found that the gauge was
telling me what I already knew. Cindy Devine didn't have
any problems winning WC races and a rainbow jersey on
bikes I wrenched with no torque wrench and on wheels I
built.

From an early age I studied the upright bass and was
taught that your breathing comes from your center and
your center and hands connect in an unbroken line of
energy. I practiced for hours a day for years to become
aware of this and compared to the minute adjustments
required to get even a passable sound with the bow
feeling torque is somewhat less tenuous. I started
racing and working on bikes when I was 13 so playing the
bass and riding and wrenching and skiing were always
part of the same thing for me.

I took exception to Peter C saying across the board that
not using a torque wrench is a matter of ego. For me it
isn't ego and when I'm not sure or I feel "unconnected"
I'll pick up a torque wrench. That just doesn't happen
very often. ok?

Then you could have said all that (pehaps in many fewer
words 🙂 without resorting to profane insults.

Bill "I beg to differ not same as You're full of [censored]" S.

My comment about "calibrated hands" was based on some
observation of various LBS of fair to excellent quality. As
I was originally trained as an engineer (likes to measure
everything), I asked their advice about a suitable torque
wrench to supplement my larger 1/2' drive auto torque
wrench. I got blank stares from all of them. As I recall,
they _all_ explained that they knew by feel, the
appropriate torque for each fastener. I found this to be a
bit odd, especially for items like stem bolts into alu
threads, front fork suspension components and so on, so I
purchased another small torque wrench anyway. But I know
these LBS's do good work, in one case prepping a bike for
several very long distance unsupported outback desert treks
(not me riding) where bike failure could easily be fatal.
So while my "calibrated hands" remark was a bit tongue- in-
cheek, I observe that good work can be done without a
torque wrench by experienced people. So I was surprised by
Peter's response (given that he is obviously a pro with an
excellent reputation) and I would be still be surprised to
hear he routinely used a torque wrench on other than
critical fasteners (he didn't actually say when he did or
did not use one).

It is worth remembering that a decent design usually will
work over a fairly wide range of fastening torque. It has to
because the bolt tension will depend on thread condition,
cleanliness and lubrication as well as applied torque.
Because of these variables, sometimes thread tightening is
specified by degrees of rotation after the surfaces mate,
such as with spark plugs and some cylinder head bolts. I
would certainly trust "sorni's" hands to work within those
accuracy limits, although I would prefer him to use the
torque wrench every so often just to remind himself what the
designer had in mind.

Bruce Graham

So carlfogel <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

Dear Jeff,

"If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words
please edit it. Without a hint of sarcasm I would be
grateful."

"Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear." --Jeff
Bonny on his "You're full of ****" post

Dear Carl, Are you drunk? The above is Jeff Bonny commenting
on his SECOND post. That would be to post AFTER the one you
seem to think referring to.

Quoted message said:

Hmm . . . your phrase and position don't seem to be as
clear as you insist. First you took a few posts to explain
it, and now you can't seem to understand it.

What are you on about? I understand my position and think I
made it clear in two posts. You are going to have to be
specific if you want to be understood.

Quoted message said:

If your post breaks under actual use, perhaps you should
learn to use a literary torque wrench and not let your ego
get in the way?

Quoted message said:

Let's see--yes, that's just about tight enough . . . maybe
another notch? No . . . There!

Carl Fogel

That would almost be clever Carl if it had anything to
do with the discussion as it took place in sequence but
it doesn't.

correction "jeffbonny" not "sorni" sorry

Bruce Graham

So Bruce Graham <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

correction "jeffbonny" not "sorni" sorry

Bruce Graham

Indeed, credit where it is due.

Also if everyone would please note:
- I did not say torque wrenches are full of [censored].
- I have admitted to using a torque wrench.
- I believe no shop is complete without a torque wrench.

I objected (and still do) to an unflattering
generalization of character that doesn't apply to me. I
said why I don't use one much and that makes me full of
[censored] then I guess I am.

jeffb

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Jeffbonny
So carlfogel <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

Dear Jeff,

"If you think I could convey what I did in fewer words
please edit it. Without a hint of sarcasm I would be
grateful."

"Wordy maybe but I didn't want my position unclear." --Jeff
Bonny on his "You're full of ****" post

Dear Carl, Are you drunk? The above is Jeff Bonny commenting
on his SECOND post. That would be to post AFTER the one you
seem to think referring to.

Quoted message said:

Hmm . . . your phrase and position don't seem to be as
clear as you insist. First you took a few posts to explain
it, and now you can't seem to understand it.

What are you on about? I understand my position and think I
made it clear in two posts. You are going to have to be
specific if you want to be understood.

Quoted message said:

If your post breaks under actual use, perhaps you should
learn to use a literary torque wrench and not let your ego
get in the way?

Quoted message said:

Let's see--yes, that's just about tight enough . . . maybe
another notch? No . . . There!

Carl Fogel

That would almost be clever Carl if it had anything to
do with the discussion as it took place in sequence but
it doesn't.

Dear Jeff,

You seem lost again.

Good luck,

Carl Fogel

Bruce Graham said:

My comment about "calibrated hands" was based on some
observation of various LBS of fair to excellent quality.
As I was originally trained as an engineer (likes to
measure everything), I asked their advice about a suitable
torque wrench to supplement my larger 1/2' drive auto
torque wrench. I got blank stares from all of them. As I
recall, they _all_ explained that they knew by feel, the
appropriate torque for each fastener. I found this to be a
bit odd, especially for items like stem bolts into alu
threads, front fork suspension components and so on, so I
purchased another small torque wrench anyway. But I know
these LBS's do good work, in one case prepping a bike for
several very long distance unsupported outback desert
treks (not me riding) where bike failure could easily be
fatal. So while my "calibrated hands" remark was a bit tongue-
in-cheek, I observe that good work can be done without a
torque wrench by experienced people. So I was surprised by
Peter's response

Me too, given that I'm well known to be a shy, retiring
person without a trace of ego or self-promotion...

Quoted message said:

(given that he is obviously a pro with an excellent
reputation) and I would be still be surprised to hear he
routinely used a torque wrench on other than critical
fasteners (he didn't actually say when he did or did not
use one).

It is worth remembering that a decent design usually
will work over a fairly wide range of fastening torque.
It has to because the bolt tension will depend on thread
condition, cleanliness and lubrication as well as
applied torque.

That's correct. I wouldn't claim my hands were "calibrated"
in the sense that I could reliably tighten some fastener to
a specified torque value. I do claim that my hands and the
brain they're attached to are good at judging appropriate
tightness of fasteners by feel, taking all of those
variables into account.

To me, using a torque wrench is a rote process that
disregards these critical variables.

Quoted message said:

Because of these variables, sometimes thread tightening is
specified by degrees of rotation after the surfaces mate,
such as with spark plugs and some cylinder head bolts.

Actually, those are instances where I would suppose a torque
wrench to be desirable, when there's a sealing gasket
involved, especially the cylinder head exammple.

However I don't work on cars (usually even avoid
pumping my own gas!) so I have never needed nor owned a
torque wrench. I did once borrow one for a photo shoot:
sheldonbrown.comtork grip.htmlOpen ↗

Sheldon "Toolaholic, But Not For Automotive Stuff" Brown
+-----------------------------------------+
| If a fool would persist in his folly, | he would become
| wise. | --William Blake |
+-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery,
West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-
1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped
Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

So carlfogel <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

Dear Jeff,

You seem lost again.

Good luck,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl, If you've seen a doctor about anti-troll
medication you should check the dosage. If you haven't seen
that doctor you should. Failing that a logical self defense
course? You're KF-ed for a while Carl. Bye now.

jeffb

peter-<< They're not essential at all. I can't think of a
really torque-sensitive fitting on a bike. >><BR><BR>

think, 'crank bolts'....

Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.comOpen ↗ "Ruote convenzionali
costruite eccezionalmente bene"

Paul Davis said:

Could anyone recommend a good torque wrench for a beginner
(the local bike shop has warned me off of beam type torque
wrenches)?

What are beam type torque wrenches? Is that what the Park
TW-1 and TW-2 are?

Anyone have experience with the MasterCraft ones? They're
available from Canadian Tire for about $70CDN. I know Snap-
On stuff is nice, but those torque wrenches seems
exceptionally expensive. :-(

Opinions?

Dave

"Qui si parla Campagnolo " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

peter-<< They're not essential at all. I can't think of a
really torque-sensitive fitting on a bike. >><BR><BR>

think, 'crank bolts'....

Crank bolts was indeed the application I had in mind.
Certainly crank bolts can be under-tightened, but can they
be over-tightened? The nominal torque usually given for the
typical 8 mm bolt is around 30 ft-lb (pretty much max
torque) where yield might be 40 ft-lb, so tighten too much &
the head snaps off. Lubricating threads, heads, washers,
etc. can make a 25% torque variation, as, in this case, can
lubing the tapers. The idea is to get the right clamp force,
torque is an approximation of that. I interpret the crank
bolt spec as "tight as you can w/o popping the head". I've
never popped a head or had a crank loosen, so my impression
is that there's a fair amount of leeway in even that "torque-
sensitive" application.

Peter Chisholm said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why NOT use it? What does using it DO that you
don't like?

I replied in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It substitutes the rote repetition of a number somebody
wrote on a piece of paper for the mechanic's judgement
which takes into account the actual tolerances, surface
conditions and lubrication condition of the parts
involved.

Someone who turns into a piece of furniture when the moon is

full said:

Judgement comes with experience. What is to provide
judgement for the inexperienced?

That's a very old conundrum...there's no substitute for
experience.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

think, 'crank bolts'....

Yes, I do. If you look at the scripts, they specify the
same torque value for both sides. This is clearly an
oversimplification.

It is my practice to tighten the left side harder than the
right side. Here's why:

When cranks come loose, it is very predominantly the left
side that comes loose. Making the left side bolt extra
tight precludes this.

So, what you're really saying is that the spec for the
left is wrong;

Not necessarily, I'm saying that a one-size-fits-all spec is
not as reliable as the judgement of a good mechanic.

Quoted message said:

the wrench does not know what you're using it on, why
blame the tool?

Who's blaming the tool? Might as well blame spell checkers
for some of the amusing malapropisms that come out of
various word processors.

sheldonbrown.comhumor.htmlOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Issues of possible overtightening are of more concern on
the right side, because this can cause chainline problems,
or, in extreme cases, chainring clearance problems.

So, do you advocate using a torque wrench there, then?

I don't advocate using a torque wrench on bicycles. It's
primarily an automotive tool.

My point is that torque wrenches are _not_ and _essential_
tool for bicycle work, and anybody who claims they are is
blowing smoke.

They may be of some use as "training wheels" for beginner
mechanics, though I suspect that, as with training wheels
for bikes, they delay mastery.

There's no substitute for breaking/stripping a few bits of
hardware to educate you hands and brain about how a properly
tightened fastener feels.

If you feel that you are incapable of judging tightness
without the aid of a torque wrench, go ahead and use one,
but don't assert that everybody needs to do so.

Sheldon "Doesn't Pound Wrenches With His Feet" Brown
+-------------------------------------------------+
| Men have become the tools of their tools. | -- Henry
| David Thoreau |
+-------------------------------------------------+ Harris
Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX
617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

jeffbonny <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

So carlfogel <[email hidden]> says:

Quoted message said:

Dear Jeff,

You seem lost again.

Good luck,

Carl Fogel

Dear Carl, If you've seen a doctor about anti-troll
medication you should check the dosage. If you haven't
seen that doctor you should. Failing that a logical self
defense course? You're KF-ed for a while Carl. Bye now.

jeffb

Whew! Now that he's out of the room, I can simply say that
he's full of [censored]!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Dave

BPaul Davis said:

Could anyone recommend a good torque wrench for a beginner
(the local bike shop has warned me off of beam type torque
wrenches)?

What are beam type torque wrenches? Is that what the Park
TW-1 and TW-2 are?

Anyone have experience with the MasterCraft ones? They're
available from Canadian Tire for about $70CDN. I know Snap-
On stuff is nice, but those torque wrenches seems
exceptionally expensive. :-(

Opinions?

Dave [/B]

Dear Dave,

Yes, those are beam-type torque wrenches
from Park. Elsewhere in this long thread, John
Everett offered this nice link, which shows how
the different kinds of torque wrenches work:

http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/downs/3837/torqwren.html

As you turn the beam-style torque-wrench,
the long pointer moves across the scale to
one side or the other. The picture with the
pointer centered may be puzzling, but you'll
see how it works at a glance as soon as you
have one in your hand.

Click-type torque wrenches require you to
set a value with a twist-knob on the end
and then give an audible and tangible click
when the load reaches that value.

Yes, $nap-On tools are expensive--and often
preferred by professional mechanics working
on machines more likely to break tools than
bicycles.

A $20 US (or less) beam-style torque wrench is
likely to give you enough guidance for working
on a bicycle. Torque values are a usually a broad
range, such as 30-40 foot-pounds for the funny
threaded thingy that holds the cassette on.

Using a torque wrench is not a bad idea, since
it tells you that they really meant for you to
tighten that sucker down, harder than you
expected, or that (for Christ's sake!) you
shouldn't lean on that little nut with half
your weight.

For some things, like disk brakes and suspension
parts, torque wrenches are an excellent idea.
Such close tolerances on such small parts have
a smaller range of acceptable torque than
eat-clamps, and some of them need more
torque than you'd expect.

If you work on cars much beyond oil filters,
a torque wrench is expected. They're trickier
than bicycles.

Carl Fogel