Torque wrenches

(This is a general reply to the topic as it began.)

Quoted message said:

There are different reasons for using a torque wrench. It
must be kept in mind, however, a torque wrench is only a
tool, and will not replace thinking. What a threaded
fastener (nut & bolt) needs is an adequate amount of
tension, which is simply not-too-little and not-too-much.
This can be achieved by a truing the thread either by hand
or by a torque wrench. A torque wrench is then a measuring
tool, much like a spoke tensiometer, a tape measure, a
caliper, or even a tablespoon or measuring cup for a cook.
You can make a great cake by grabbing hands full of flour
and pouring out the salt, but most people would not want
to purchase such a cake at their local grocery store. A
torque wrench, used correctly, makes a good mechanic
better. However, if basic knowledge is lacking, a torque
wrench will not act as "magic wand" making every component
safe and secure.

There is also a difference between working on your own
bike, and working professionally on other peoples
bikes. Correct use of a torque wrench is one more way a
shop can stand fully behind its work. A quick look at
various bicycle forums will show that the creaking
bicycle is often an issue, making lack of torque
knowledge wide spread.

The fact that torque wrenches have not had general use in
the "industry" mean that we are simply behind, which should
not be a surprise. Torque wrench use is not rocket science.
There are now higher torque values commonly used. While my
macho friends may think they are applying a recommend 600
in-lb torque to a bb with a 6 inch wrench, it is not likely.
One thing a torque wrench gives the user is simply more
leverage when it counts. It is true of course this extra
leverage is double edged, and can be a detriment in the
wrong hands or with light torques.

Quoted message said:

See also for threading and torque issues:
parktool.comthread.shtmlOpen ↗

parktool.comtorque.shtmlOpen ↗

Calvin Jones said:

The fact that torque wrenches have not had general use in
the "industry" mean that we are simply behind, which
should not be a surprise. Torque wrench use is not rocket
science. There are now higher torque values commonly used.
While my macho friends may think they are applying a
recommend 600 in-lb torque to a bb with a 6 inch wrench,
it is not likely.

That's an example of the "straw man" type of argument.

Here's what I use on bottom brackets:

For those that use an 8 mm Allen head, I have a standard "L"
shaped Wrench stuck into the end of an old MTB handlebar 19
1/2" long.

For those that use a 14 or 15 mm cap screw, I use a
Craftsman 1/2" drive rodent-feces handle 14 1/2" long.

For splined BB retaining rings, I use a Craftsman 1/2" drive
flex ratshit handle.

All of these tools allow me to apply the torque close to the
plane of the fastener's head, so there's reduced risk of
rocking the wrench out/off the fastener's head.

I can't imagine using a beam type torque wrench on a left
crank, 'cause I don't see how I could get it tight enough
while being in a position to read the scale.

My usual procedure is to orient the bicycle so the front end
is facing straight up, with wrench and opposite crank
hanging down from the bottom bracket. I face the bottom of
the BB, pull on the wrench with my right hand, push on the
right crank with my left hand. Sometimes I'll wrap the
fingers of my left hand around the right chainstay for a bit
of extra support.

For tightening the right crank, I hold the rear wheel
instead of the crank, since the drive train gives me more
leverage. (Both cranks done this way with fixed gears.)

I don't have a lot of upper body strength, and have delicate
hands so I tend to pay more attention to the ergonomics of
wrenching than a stronger mechanic might.

Sheldon "No Macho Posturing" Brown +---------------------------------------------------------
---------+
| Honestly, I think we should just trust our president in
| every | decision that he makes and we should just
| support that. | -- Britney Spears, September 4, 2003 |
+-----------------------------------------------------------
-------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone
617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-
find parts shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 14:08:35 -0400, Sheldon Brown

may have said:

Someone who turns into a piece of furniture when the moon

is full said:

Judgement comes with experience. What is to provide
judgement for the inexperienced?

That's a very old conundrum...there's no substitute for
experience.

No, really, there isn't, but I would rather have the
inexperienced turned into the knowledgeable in fewer
breakage steps. IMO, it is hardly reasonable to recommend
that an amateur trust his own judgement in tightening things
*that matter* when the use of a torque wrench would increase
the chances of the result being close to right. In my own
case, long ago, after several dozen VW engine overhauls, I
knew by feel when the torque wrench was going to click on
the head studs and such, but I didn't start out
knowing...and I'd have been [censored] as hell if I'd had to
do every job over several times, buying some new bits on
each iteration, just to find out what the right feel was.
When I took up cycling, I had years of mechanic experience
on other equipment...but I still had to find the places
where things were critical on bikes, and it turned out that
one of them really did need a torque wrench before I was
going to get the feel. Tightening the bolts (or nuts, on
cheap BBs) on the cranks didn't have the nice, familiar
plateau whwere it became obvious that the fastener was as
snug as it needed to be; the taper meant that the effort
just had a moderately linear increase, with nothing to
clearly point up the "it's done, Jim" spot. I'll give you
the contention that the left cranks can often stand a bit
more than the right, though for the life of me I can't
really understand why this is the case. Still, in that *one*
instance, had I gone at it with a wink and a guess, I'd
likely have driven the damn things all the way up the taper
until the bolt bottomed. (Yes, at times, I *am* Captain
Overtorque[1].)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is my practice to tighten the left side harder than
the right side. Here's why:

When cranks come loose, it is very predominantly the left
side that comes loose. Making the left side bolt extra
tight precludes this.

So, what you're really saying is that the spec for the
left is wrong;

Not necessarily, I'm saying that a one-size-fits-all spec
is not as reliable as the judgement of a good mechanic.

And therein lies the rub. Many of the people who come here,
and to your site, for advice and assistance are decidedly
*not* experienced. Those whose time in service pulling on
wrenches has gifted them with the feel for when it's "tight
enough" serve the amateur poorly by not advocating the use
of the tools that will give that amateur the best chance of
getting a good result. What you and I can safely do is not
necessarily good practice for them.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the wrench does not know what you're using it on, why
blame the tool?

Who's blaming the tool? Might as well blame spell checkers
for some of the amusing malapropisms that come out of
various word processors.

sheldonbrown.comhumor.htmlOpen ↗

In some cases, the spell-checker may make things amusingly
worse...but such is the nature of this language.

BTW; here's a brainstorm for your humor entries. Reversible
tubeless tires; run them slick side out on the street,
invert them to put the knobs to the trail when going off-
road. The only problem I see is that somebody might actually
think it wasn't a fake product.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Issues of possible overtightening are of more concern on
the right side, because this can cause chainline
problems, or, in extreme cases, chainring clearance
problems.

So, do you advocate using a torque wrench there, then?

I don't advocate using a torque wrench on bicycles. It's
primarily an automotive tool.

It's a tool, period. It has many appropriate venues, from
aviation and instrumentation to sewing machines and more.
Using it is one way of learning what "tight enough" feels
like *when the parts and fasteners are in good condition and
properly prepped*...and if that requirement is skipped, the
user has got some additional education to acquire anyway.

Quoted message said:

My point is that torque wrenches are _not_ and _essential_
tool for bicycle work, and anybody who claims they are is
blowing smoke.

They may be of some use as "training wheels" for beginner
mechanics, though I suspect that, as with training wheels
for bikes, they delay mastery.

There's no substitute for breaking/stripping a few bits of
hardware to educate you hands and brain about how a
properly tightened fastener feels.

If you feel that you are incapable of judging tightness
without the aid of a torque wrench, go ahead and use one,
but don't assert that everybody needs to do so.

I would say that it's safer, and more considerate, to
recommend the use of a torque wrench for critical tasks when
the experience that would make it irrelevant is not
demonstrably present. The idea is to give the questioner the
information that will lead them to the best result they are
likely to achieve. Not everyone wants, needs, or can even
acquire the feel for "tight enough" in the limited number of
times that they will perform a given task...and it's rude,
to my way of thinking, to think that they'll be better off
breaking something in the long run. The idea is to help, not
to set them up for a fall. You provide people with good,
sound, practical advice so consistently and so often that
you're really the last person I thought I'd see taking the
position that has been advanced; I started to wonder who had
abducted the Umber Wizard at first. I now appears that what
you're saying is they *you* don't feel the need to use a
torque wrench. Well, for a lot of tasks, when it's *me*
doing them, I agree; I don't need one either. That doesn't
mean that I would recommend that someone else, whose
abilities are unknown to me, should think that they can do
likewise. It's not, in many cases, a good bet.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 22:51:37 GMT, Werehatrack

may have said:

(Yes, at times, I *am* Captain Overtorque[1].)

and then I left out the footnote....

[1] Able to strip large threads with a single turn! Breaks
grade 5 fasteners with his bare hands and one wrench!
Who, knowing that the only certain way to prevent the
dreaded Loose Fastener is to make sure it can *never*
come off, cross threads nuts and runs them down till
they strip in place! Disguised as the mild-mannered ex-parts-
manager turned screen printer, he fights a never-ending
battle to ensure that nothing can be taken apart *at
all* once *he* puts it together!

"Look! Under that van!"

"Is it a dead deer?"

"Is it an alligator?"

"Is it Uncle Ralph?"

No, it's Captain Overtorque!

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Werehatrack said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Judgement comes with experience. What is to provide
judgement for the inexperienced?

I replied, in part:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's a very old conundrum...there's no substitute for
experience.

No, really, there isn't, but I would rather have the
inexperienced turned into the knowledgeable in fewer
breakage steps. IMO, it is hardly reasonable to
recommend that an amateur trust his own judgement in
tightening things *that matter* when the use of a torque
wrench would increase the chances of the result being
close to right.

I believe bicyles should be user serviceable, and I don't
believe in discouraging people from fixing their bikes just
because they don't own some exotic specialized tool, when
that tool is not needed.

Similarly, you'll never see me promoting the "necessity" of
wearing special clothing for cycling. I believe cycling
should be a democratic activity, and that nobody should be
reluctant to ride a bike just because they don't have some
specialize clothing.

I was going to leave this repetitious thread alone, except
when it got into saying that mechanics like myself who don't
find a torque wrench necessary are either hacks or
egomaniacs.

I've taught a great many people bicycle repair, hardly ever
had any problem with overtightened bottom brackets.

The usual error is to undertighten, and if you do that you
discover it because the crank loosens up, so you tighten it.
That's how I learned (not by breaking bolts...only once
recall breaking a crank mounting bolt, and I believe that
was a defective one.)

Quoted message said:

In my own case, long ago, after several dozen VW engine
overhauls, I knew by feel when the torque wrench was
going to click on the head studs and such, but I didn't
start out knowing...and I'd have been [censored] as hell
if I'd had to do every job over several times, buying
some new bits on each iteration, just to find out what
the right feel was.

I never denied that a torque wrench is nearly essential for
doing a good job of installing an automobile engine's
cylinder head, and for other applications involving multiple
bolts with crushable gaskets, but this application does not
arise in the bicycle world.

Torque wrenches are, indeed, important _automotive_ tools.

If you can afford one and choose to go to the trouble of
using one for bicycle work, that's fine with me too, but
don't tell me that _I_ (or anybody else) _need_ a torque
wrench to do a proper job on a bicycle.

Quoted message said:

When I took up cycling, I had years of mechanic
experience on other equipment...but I still had to find
the places where things were critical on bikes,

The only such parts on a bicycle that I consider truly
critical are the brake cable anchor bolts (and I've never
known anybody to use a torque wrench on those) and the wheel
attachment hardware.

Sheldon "I've Broken/Stripped A Few Anchor Bolts In My Time"
Brown +----------------------------------------+
| When I am grown to man's estate | I shall be very proud
| and great, | And tell the other girls and boys | Not to
| meddle with my toys. | -R. L. Stevenson |
+----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery,
West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-
1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped
Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

"Calvin Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(This is a general reply to the topic as it began.)

Quoted message said:

There are different reasons for using a torque wrench.
It must be kept in mind, however, a torque wrench is
only a tool, and will not replace thinking. What a
threaded fastener (nut & bolt) needs is an adequate
amount of tension, which is simply not-too-little and
not-too-much. This can be achieved by a truing the
thread either by hand or by a torque wrench. A torque
wrench is then a measuring tool, much like a spoke
tensiometer, a tape measure, a caliper, or even a
tablespoon or measuring cup for a cook. You can make a
great cake by grabbing hands full of flour and pouring
out the salt, but most people would not want to purchase
such a cake at their local grocery store. A torque
wrench, used correctly, makes a good mechanic better.
However, if basic knowledge is lacking, a torque wrench
will not act as "magic wand" making every component safe
and secure.

There is also a difference between working on your own
bike, and working professionally on other peoples bikes.
Correct use of a torque wrench is one more way a shop
can stand fully behind its work. A quick look at various
bicycle forums will show that the creaking bicycle is
often an issue, making lack of torque knowledge wide
spread.

The fact that torque wrenches have not had general use in
the "industry" mean that we are simply behind, which
should not be a surprise. Torque wrench use is not rocket
science. There are now higher torque values commonly used.

The place that I really find a torque wrench helps me is
where I was overtightening in the past. Particularly on
things like brake pad fasteners. No, I never broke one so I
didn't realize I was overtightening, but many times the
spacers were warped in a not so noticeable way.

Greg

And I use my torque wrench on the stem bolt & wedge bolt. I
had a wedge bolt stripped on my TTT stem on my new bike by a
mechanic at my favorite shop. Took me a while to figure out
why I couldn't get my stem out. Let me tell you what a PITA
it was getting that out.

Of course, I also use it on the BB & crank bolts too!

MOO, Matt

G.T. said:

"Calvin Jones" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(This is a general reply to the topic as it began.)

Quoted message said:

There are different reasons for using a torque wrench. It
must be kept in mind, however, a torque wrench is only a
tool, and will not replace thinking. What a threaded
fastener (nut & bolt) needs is an adequate amount of
tension, which is simply not-too-little and not-too-much.
This can be achieved by a truing the thread either by
hand or by a torque wrench. A torque wrench is then a
measuring tool, much like a spoke tensiometer, a tape
measure, a caliper, or even a tablespoon or measuring cup
for a cook. You can make a great cake by grabbing hands
full of flour and pouring out the salt, but most people
would not want to purchase such a cake at their local
grocery store. A torque wrench, used correctly, makes a
good mechanic better. However, if basic knowledge is
lacking, a torque wrench will not act as "magic wand"
making every component safe and secure.

There is also a difference between working on your own
bike, and working professionally on other peoples bikes.
Correct use of a torque wrench is one more way a shop can
stand fully behind its work. A quick look at various
bicycle forums will show that the creaking bicycle is
often an issue, making lack of torque knowledge wide
spread.

The fact that torque wrenches have not had general use in
the "industry" mean that we are simply behind, which
should not be a surprise. Torque wrench use is not rocket
science. There are now higher torque values commonly used.

The place that I really find a torque wrench helps me is
where I was overtightening in the past. Particularly on
things like brake pad fasteners. No, I never broke one so
I didn't realize I was overtightening, but many times the
spacers were warped in a not so noticeable way.

Greg

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

I never denied that a torque wrench is nearly essential
for doing a good job of installing an automobile engine's
cylinder head, and for other applications involving
multiple bolts with crushable gaskets, but this
application does not arise in the bicycle world.

<snip>

It seems to me that I started hearing about torque
wrenches being de rigeur about the time carbon fiber
became so popular. Given what I hear about how damage to
carbon fiber parts is not always evident and how failure
can be catastrophic, I'd probably get a torque wrench if I
used carbon fiber components. I prefer just to avoid
carbon fiber.

On Fri, 09 Apr 2004 00:35:09 -0400, Sheldon Brown

may have said:

The only such parts on a bicycle that I consider truly
critical are the brake cable anchor bolts (and I've never
known anybody to use a torque wrench on those)

Me neither, and I can't say that it would be an appropriate
place to even try.

Quoted message said:

and the wheel attachment hardware.

Which, with skewers, is a non-issue in any event. And with a
solid axle (which, frankly, I personally prefer) it's still
questionable whether a torque wrench is useful for that task
because of the irregularity of the mounting surface.

It's interesting to note, if you haven't run into it, that
in many places on automotive engines now, the final
tightening regime for critical fasteners isn't based on
turning torque, but on a sequence of steps which ends with
rotating the bolts from a "just snug" intermediate condition
through a specific angle to their final position.

BTW, when it comes to overtorquing something, I'll relate
that I came across a used bike at a garage sale recently
which exemplified the inappropriate application of the
Armstrong Approach to Torque[1]. It was a cheap mtb with a
threadless stem, and the steerer was *very* stiff. Looking
closely, I could see that the head of the remaining
original stem pinch bolt was wallowed, the replacement for
the other was of the wrong type and had been overtightened
to the point where the threads were pulled out, and the
bolt in the top cap had been run down until the cap was
badly distorted. The seller said the bike was "messed up",
and wanted $10 for it. All things considered, for a Walgoose-
level unit with as many things futzed as that one had
visible, I decided that I'd pass.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

[snip racy discussions of wrenching positions]

Quoted message said:

I was taught at an early age to pull on wrenches, not push
on them . . .

Sheldon "Ummmmmffff!" Brown

Dear Sheldon,

Why?

Carl Fogel

Hi, the Park torque wrenches are beam type. I've had mixed
messages about beam type torque wrenches, been warned off by
some and recommended them by others. The other type (that
gives/clicks when the set torque is reached) seem to be
refered to as clickers.

The confusion over what is/isn't good was one of the reasons
for posting originally.

The routine use of torque wrenches ignores the fact that not
all thread pairs of a given size will respond the same to a
fixed torque value.

Industrially, torque specs are typically given for clean dry
threads, even if the threads in question are supposed to be
lubricated. Why? Because clean dry threads offer the best
hope of getting anything like a consistent fastener tension
for a given torque. You are supposed to make all necessary
measurements to obtain a similar fastener tension with
whatever grease you happen to be using-- not that anybody
actually does that, of course.

Lubricant on threads can reduce the necessary torque to
reach a given fastener tension by more than half. The
specific amount varies widely according to lubrication type
and amount, tension range, thread pitch angle, component
surface finish, and other factors.

Likewise, the maximum tension a given thread pair can
withstand without damage is dependent on the specific
materials, tolerances, and thread depth of each part as well
as their relationship to each other. Tiny variations in fit
clearance and pitch length can make a dramatic difference in
failure torque.

Using a torque wrench and a reference table without regard
to issues that affect the specific part in question is no
better than an experienced mechanic honking on it until it
"feels tight enough". For someone without mechanical
experience, a torque wrench and reference table can get an
assembly in the ballpark of tolerable conditions, and in the
workplace it can provide serious ability to CYA. But let's
be frank about what it offers-- a close-order-of-magnitude
level of precision, functionally the same as a trained
technician's judgment call.

Chalo Colina

a bottom line hear is the intro to nuts and bolts approach
via the torque wrench essentially thinking or educational
approach skirting trilal and error when bolting the
abarth's head down. yeahyeahyeah and yawl did this and once
screwed it up good. so. ahem. if one who wonders about this
stuff takes a handful of various sizes and a board bolts
the nuts up with
a. grease
a1. never anti seize
b. no grease
c. try rust
d.blue oem loctite
e. red loctites

at relevant torque levels then yagotta idea.

but don't thro the wrench away someday yawl have three
beers and...

Carl Fogel said:

Sheldon Brown <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

[snip racy discussions of wrenching positions]

Quoted message said:

I was taught at an early age to pull on wrenches, not push
on them . . .

Sheldon "Ummmmmffff!" Brown

Dear Sheldon,

Why?

Dear Carl,

In my experience, it is best to apply force to a tool in
such a manner that if the tool slips on the fastener one's
hand does not crash into hard and/or sharp objects.

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

g.daniels said:

a bottom line hear is the intro to nuts and bolts approach
via the torque wrench essentially thinking or educational
approach skirting trilal and error when bolting the
abarth's head down....

Fiat or Simca?

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

Sheldon Brown said:

I don't advocate using a torque wrench on bicycles. It's
primarily an automotive tool.

I'm sure you could have a lively debate on this point with
an A&P (FAA licensed Airframe and Powerplant mechanic).
Torque wrenches are appropriate tools for properly
tightening any threaded fastener, from the head bolts on
Briggs & Stratton lawnmower engines to bypass valves on
commercial jets.

If the well trained human body could successfully reproduce
a mechanical function 100% of the time, professional bowlers
would bowl nothing but 300 games and NBA players would never
miss a free throw. We are variable creatures. Torque
wrenches are not.

jeverett3<AT>earthlink<DOT>net
home.earthlink.net~jeverett3Open ↗

Quoted message said:

g.daniels said:

a bottom line hear is the intro to nuts and bolts
approach via the torque wrench essentially thinking or
educational approach skirting trilal and error when
bolting the abarth's head down....

Tom Sherman said:

Fiat or Simca?

Abarth was Colin Chapman's (Lotus) middle name.

(Simca gets my vote for worst car of all time - but I
haven't actually worked on a Trabant outdoors in a
Wisconsin winter)
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

g.daniels said:

a bottom line hear is the intro to nuts and bolts
approach via the torque wrench essentially thinking or
educational approach skirting trilal and error when
bolting the abarth's head down....

Tom Sherman said:

Fiat or Simca?

Abarth was Colin Chapman's (Lotus) middle name.

(Simca gets my vote for worst car of all time - but I
haven't actually worked on a Trabant outdoors in a
Wisconsin winter)

I was thinking of Carlo Abarth. I would be willing to put up
with a Simca Abarth if someone donated one to me. <w-w-Open ↗
ww.michaelp.org/photos/cars/winehist2000/simca_abarth.jpg>

--
Tom Sherman - Quad Cities (Illinois Side)

In article <[email hidden]>,

John Everett said:

We are variable creatures. Torque wrenches are not.

Any tool is as good as the human using it. To be of any use,
a torque wrench must be properly calibrated, adjusted and
interpreted. There's plenty of variability in this process.

The A&P comparison is interesting but not terribly relevant.
The need for precision is somewhat different when vast sums
of money and lives are directly at stake. Bike fasteners are
different animals, and on the most critical of them--the
quick release--a torque wrench is no help at all. You either
know how it's supposed to feel or you don't.

That said, a torque wrench won't hurt things any on most
bike fasteners, but it will greatly slow jobs such as
anchoring a brake cable. The only interface in which one
could make a genuine case for a torque wrench is the crank
bolts. So far, I've settled for tightening the [censored] out of
'em. We'll see if that works.

If it doesn't, the failure isn't particularly catastrophic.
The cranks rattle a little, then rattle a lot. If I were to
keep riding the bike at that point, there might be problems,
but I don't expect it'll get that far gone.
--
---
"I never had to pretend I felt the lyrics. I could always
relate to the words."
-- Teddy Pendergrass

eric h wrote: The only

Quoted message said:

interface in which one could make a genuine case for a
torque wrench is the crank bolts. So far, I've settled for
tightening the [censored] out of 'em.

A woman who worked for me twisted the heads off crank bolts.
More than once.

"tightening the [censored] out of them" is a pretty wide range.
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971