Trail Magazine

Paul Saunders said:

Dafydd Ap Arwyn said:

Example. Look at this month's Trail. The section on the new Terra
Nova Laser Competition. They complain that the tent is cramped and
small, yet claim the akto is Massive and some other superlative
regarding its size. The dimensions they quote however, make the Laser
larger.

Sounds a bit fishy to me, as if there's a bit of editorial bias gone
unchecked. The two tents are, afterall, pretty much the same. Yes, OK,
there are differences in the detail but if you were looking for a tent
such as the TNL or the Akto you'd put them head-to-head.

Quoted message said:

Size overall is very similar IIRC, but the Laser has more headroom.
That's what put me off about the Akto, it's a bit too low for my liking, but
more sturdily built and probably better in strong winds.

I've heard this anecdotal suggestion a few times now and, initially,
went with other's greater experience and took it as a truism. Now I'm
not so sure:

Recently, Lorraine McCall completed an end-to-end of the Munros.
Lorraine took a TN Laser, here are a few quotes from her article in
TGO:

"the tent stood up to gales in the Fannichs" (after which she replaced
the as-supplied pegs)

"All night the tent was pummelled by strong winds, driving sleet
giving way to horizontal rain. /snip/ But no water had penetrated the
inner"

"At Skye's Sligachan campsite the tent was battered for three nights
before [she made] it to the Cuillin Ridge"

"I reached a stage where i didn't want to sleep anywhere else"

Steve Perry, who's currently 5 days up on his scheduled continuous
winter round of the Munros is using TNs Laserlite.

Incidentally, updates on Steve Perry's progress, he's currently 5 days
ahead of schedule, can be seen here:

http://www.rab.uk.com/expeditions_steveperry.html

and

http://winter284.co.uk/

The background pic on the "update" page of the second site has the man
himself sat in the door of a tent which looks to me like an Akto, if
so he's familiar with both ;-)

HTH

SteveO said:

Quoted message said:

Akto, it's a bit too low for my
liking, but more sturdily built and probably better in strong winds.

I've heard this anecdotal suggestion a few times now and, initially,
went with other's greater experience and took it as a truism. Now I'm
not so sure:

Quoted message said:

"the tent stood up to gales in the Fannichs" (after which she replaced
the as-supplied pegs)

That's what I was thinking! I wouldn't trust those pegs in a gale! Too
easy for the guys to slip off the tops.

Quoted message said:

"All night the tent was pummelled by strong winds, driving sleet
giving way to horizontal rain. /snip/ But no water had penetrated the
inner"

I have no doubt that the Laser is waterproof.

Interesting comments. The Laser seems flimsy because it's so light, so I'd
be wary of taking it when strong winds are forecast, but maybe I should take
the risk, and use better pegs.

Paul

Paul Saunders said:

Interesting comments. The Laser seems flimsy because it's so light, so I'd
be wary of taking it when strong winds are forecast, but maybe I should take
the risk, and use better pegs.

AFAICT from reading and pictures TN have finally given up on feeling the
need to tape seams and are using silicone elastomer coatings both sides
of their new ultralight fabrics. That means less heat aging so weight
for weight such fabrics are stronger than PU coated ones, and may still
be stronger when lighter (note Hilleberg's claims for ~12 times the tear
strength of "typical" tent fabrics in their lightweight nylon).

So it's almost certainly tougher than you'd think!

My immediate concern about the pegs was that carbon fibre is subject to
stress fracturing from minor cracks, which seem like the thing you're
inviting pushing them into stony ground. OTOH, the exact meaning of
"carbon fibre" is not, errr, exact, with all sorts of composite mixes of
different engineering characteristics coming under the name, so the
extent to which TN's would suffer from this I have no idea. But you can
always go for some Ti ones if you want to stay as a weight weenie and
have a bit more confidence in the pitch!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

SteveO said:

"All night the tent was pummelled by strong winds, driving sleet
giving way to horizontal rain. /snip/ But no water had penetrated the
inner"

I have no doubt that the Laser is waterproof.

Interesting comments. The Laser seems flimsy because it's so light, so

I'd

Quoted message said:

be wary of taking it when strong winds are forecast, but maybe I should

take

Quoted message said:

the risk, and use better pegs.

Three of us in single man tents in October on an exposed spot on
Lewis. Heavy rain and very strong winds. Alan's Laserlite survived, but
the pole bent - the guys which go over the main hoop are not attched
to the tent but to separate strip of material which didn't prevent a lot
of sideways movement of the hoop. The tent is still useable. Alan had
already replaced the main pegs with lightweight aluminium ones. My Akto
survived unmarked, but it was an incredibly noisy night..... Sarah's
ancient two pole hike tent leaked early on - so we discovered you can
fit two people in an Akto.... Her tent was flat on the ground by the
morning (she's looking for a new tent now...). I continue to be very
impressed by the Akto - but must take earplugs if I get another night
as windy as that one ;-)
Denzil

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

AFAICT from reading and pictures TN have finally given up on feeling the
need to tape seams and are using silicone elastomer coatings both sides
of their new ultralight fabrics. That means less heat aging so weight
for weight such fabrics are stronger than PU coated ones, and may still
be stronger when lighter (note Hilleberg's claims for ~12 times the tear
strength of "typical" tent fabrics in their lightweight nylon).

I've never heard of anyone's tent fabric rip because it wasn't strong
enough. I have however seen non taped silicone elastomer coated tents
leaking.

AndyP said:

I've never heard of anyone's tent fabric rip because it wasn't strong
enough.

Unusual, but it does happen, and is increasingly likely as fabrics
suffer UV aging.

Quoted message said:

I have however seen non taped silicone elastomer coated tents
leaking.

As have I. And I've seen taped seam PU coated tents leaking as well...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

So it's almost certainly tougher than you'd think!

I've always suspected that it is, I just haven't put it to the test yet.

Quoted message said:

My immediate concern about the pegs was that carbon fibre is subject
to stress fracturing from minor cracks,

Breaking them is not my main concern. What bothers me is that there's no
hook on the end like normal pegs. Have you seen what they look like? My
worry is that with a lot of blowing and shaking the guys may slip off the
top of the pegs, and the tent is very unstable if all the guys aren't pegged
in. So if one slipped off, the whole tent could collapse quite easily after
that.

I do push the pegs in at a sharp angle to help prevent the guys slipping
off, but I'd prefer normal shaped pegs with a hook.

Paul

Paul Saunders said:

I've always suspected that it is, I just haven't put it to the test yet.

Years ago Saunders sent me a sample of their high tenacity SE ripstop
and A.N. Other nylon, each with a pre-cut rip for you to try and make
bigger. It was bloody difficult getting the HTSER tear any bigger at
all, while the other put up no resistance to speak of. Not that any
given tent will be that bad, of course.

Quoted message said:

Breaking them is not my main concern. What bothers me is that there's no
hook on the end like normal pegs. Have you seen what they look like?

No. Sounds like a pretty good reason to get something else though!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Denzil Broadhurst said:

I continue to be very
impressed by the Akto - but must take earplugs if I get another night
as windy as that one ;-)

I know what you mean. I love my Akto but it's very noisy in strong
wind. I think it's the zip-pulls on the vents at the end.

Judith

In message <[email hidden]>, Judith
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Denzil Broadhurst said:

I continue to be very
impressed by the Akto - but must take earplugs if I get another night
as windy as that one ;-)

I know what you mean. I love my Akto but it's very noisy in strong
wind. I think it's the zip-pulls on the vents at the end.

I cut off rattling zip-pulls and replace them with lengths of soft cord.

Chris Townsend said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I continue to be very
impressed by the Akto - but must take earplugs if I get another night
as windy as that one ;-)

I know what you mean. I love my Akto but it's very noisy in strong
wind. I think it's the zip-pulls on the vents at the end.

I cut off rattling zip-pulls and replace them with lengths of soft cord.

I considered doing that but the thought of "damaging" my Akto in any
way horrifies me! I have read ultralight backpacking articles in
which they cut off the labels from everything and that makes me a bit
queasy too.

However, I think I am getting a little more practical and less in awe
of the brand-name as I get older...... but could I actually take a
knife to my tent? Eek!

Judith

Judith said:

I considered doing that but the thought of "damaging" my Akto in any
way horrifies me! I have read ultralight backpacking articles in
which they cut off the labels from everything and that makes me a bit
queasy too.

However, I think I am getting a little more practical and less in awe
of the brand-name as I get older...... but could I actually take a
knife to my tent? Eek!

Leave them on until the next time they keep you awake, and then use that
handy pocket knife the very next morning so you can be sure it's the
Right Thing.

Remember deciding the lining in my big waterproof had to go
(particularly good was the "wicking lining" up the sleeves... which
meant that if the lining got wet at the wrist it would wick all that
moisture all the way up your arms: brilliant!)... but dithering for
quite a lot of time before taking the scissors to it. Aside from losing
the inside pocket, no regrets though. And on the Akto you won't lose
anything (except more sleep if you don't do it!).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote in news:doe5qd$sfd$1
@news.freedom2surf.net:

Quoted message said:

That's what I was thinking! I wouldn't trust those pegs in a gale! Too
easy for the guys to slip off the tops.

Last spring I saw a Laser at a Cotswold tent show, and it had pegs with a
top hat shape at the top which would stop the guys falling off. They looked
much better than the original ones.

John

Chris Townsend said:

Quoted message said:

I know what you mean. I love my Akto but it's very noisy in strong
wind. I think it's the zip-pulls on the vents at the end.

I cut off rattling zip-pulls and replace them with lengths of soft cord.

An interesting idea.

Is that the same principle that Alan Hinkes' design includes for the
zip-pulls /his/ Berghaus jacket? (I've not seen one in the flesh)

BTW Chris, while you're around (if you're still here ;-), what's your
opinion regarding the tarp tents so beloved of the Merkins? I've not
had the chance to see one but I'm curious to know how
weather-resilient they are. I can't help but think that they're more
suited to climes different from our own but at the same time I think
that's a daft perspective on my part; I'm sure "weather" in the US is
the same as "weather" here in the UK?

Denzil Broadhurst said:

but must take earplugs if I get another night as windy as that one ;-)

this is an all-round /good thing/ ;-)

SteveO said:

BTW Chris, while you're around (if you're still here ;-), what's your
opinion regarding the tarp tents so beloved of the Merkins? I've not
had the chance to see one but I'm curious to know how
weather-resilient they are. I can't help but think that they're more
suited to climes different from our own but at the same time I think
that's a daft perspective on my part; I'm sure "weather" in the US is
the same as "weather" here in the UK?

"Climate is what we expect, weather is what we get".

Some people say you'd be completely mad to go out in the UK without
waterproofs, but I've done it more than once and not regretted it... it
all depends on the conditions right then and there.

Tarps have problems if there's too much wind (not so much from staying
up, but keeping the occupant out of the weather) and if there isn't any
at all (in summer, welcome a cloud of midges...), but that leaves plenty
of possible occasions to deploy one. It's similar for bivvi bags, which
certainly aren't something most people would /always/ use, but which can
usefully lighten a load from time to time.

As a compromise you can just take a tent flysheet (assuming you have a
tent where the fly can be pitched without the inner, another reason I'm
not a great fan of many inner-first pitching tents) and not bother with
the inner. You'll lose some comfort, but also lose some weight.

If you're in the trees for camping there are many opportunities with
tarps to rig up shelters that will keep the rain off on an otherwise
okay day, so you can sit and cook outside without the limited headroom
the usual degree of paranoia about burning your shelter down a tent
enforces. Which is nice. Camping from boats we've often taken tents
/and/ tarps, tents for sleeping peacefully, tarps for improving general
campsite comfort.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

SteveO said:

BTW Chris, while you're around (if you're still here ;-), what's your
opinion regarding the tarp tents so beloved of the Merkins?

Quoted message said:

Tarps have problems if there's too much wind (not so much from staying
up, but keeping the occupant out of the weather) and if there isn't any
at all (in summer, welcome a cloud of midges...), but that leaves plenty
of possible occasions to deploy one. It's similar for bivvi bags,

<snip>

Quoted message said:

As a compromise you can just take a tent flysheet

<snippety>

Quoted message said:

Camping from boats we've often taken tents /and/ tarps, tents for
sleeping peacefully, tarps for improving general campsite comfort.

I appreciate the take you're, er, taking Pete... _but_, and its a big
but because its kinda more of where I was drifting in from (although I
didn't say as much, or imply same in my post [because I'm still
forming an opionion about tarps a la Merkin]) : what if you were
making an either/or decision? The cash aspect has an implicit impact
here but I was more thinking of a lightweight scenario:

If you were making choices strongly driven by [ultra]lightweight
motives then a tarp, in the sense of a "tarp tent" and not just a
poncho or somesuch rigged as a basha, really does grab the attention.
Because they are waterproof and they are ultra light weight.

If you're intended use is something like the Pennine Way, TGO's
Thingumajig, or somesuch, where you're almost guaranteed a huge mix of
weather.

Observations:
* mesh is usually no-see-um so midges can't get in... if you've got a
fixed ground sheet ;-)
* I have come across brands of tarp tents that are well-regarded for
their stability when its blowing a hoolie.

Considerations;
* they're single-skinned
* fixed ground sheets are optional
* bottom centimetres of the sides are usually mesh
* as are the front and back panels
(generalising because I don't know every brand - and would be
interested in knowing more tbh)

Puzzles:
The obvious questions, istm ... in fact they're down right puzzles to
me, are:
* what about seepage/condensation if you don't have a fixed
groundsheet?
* what about rain spatter through the sides if rain is driven?
* what about condensation if you have a fixed groundsheet.
* etc.

Its all about being confident that, come what the weather might throw
at you, you're safe in your cocoon (extremes of weather
notwithstanding).

A knee-jerk reaction (from me) to the puzzles above would be to
dismiss tarp tents out of hand... but I can't justify the reaction
with answers to my queries. They seem to have a sizeable band of happy
followers in the States and, fundamentally, their range of nasty
weather is similar to our own so it seems irrational to dismiss the
tarp tent by saying "our weather's worse than theirs(sic.)". Then
there's the weight, they're so--oo light!!

--
SteveO

SteveO said:

They seem to have a sizeable band of happy
followers in the States and, fundamentally, their range of nasty
weather is similar to our own

"The States" is a big area. You can't generalise about the weather there.
Some parts are like northern Europe, others are like northern Africa! I'm
sure there are plenty of places in the States where the weather is sunny and
stable for long periods.

Paul

SteveO said:

If you were making choices strongly driven by [ultra]lightweight
motives then a tarp, in the sense of a "tarp tent" and not just a
poncho or somesuch rigged as a basha, really does grab the attention.
Because they are waterproof and they are ultra light weight.

They are waterproof up to a point... Think of how vertically rain falls
in a gale force wind and you'll start to appreciate you need more than a
waterproof roof to have a waterproof shelter.

Quoted message said:

If you're intended use is something like the Pennine Way, TGO's
Thingumajig, or somesuch, where you're almost guaranteed a huge mix of
weather.

But you can probably rule out the wilder extremes just on statistical
chance, and if it comes down to it you can always bail out to a B&B or a
hostel for a day.

Quoted message said:

Observations:
* mesh is usually no-see-um so midges can't get in... if you've got a
fixed ground sheet ;-)
* I have come across brands of tarp tents that are well-regarded for
their stability when its blowing a hoolie.

Blowing down isn't a problem, the problem is what the wind blows through
the (lack of) walls. If you can get a site sheltered from the worst of
it you'll be okay, depending on the degree of hairshirt you take as
comfort, but you can't guarantee that you'll be in a sheltered spot for
A Randon Wild Camp Spot.

Quoted message said:

Puzzles:
The obvious questions, istm ... in fact they're down right puzzles to
me, are:
* what about seepage/condensation if you don't have a fixed
groundsheet?

used to be standard on all tents and people did okay... but sewn in with
bathtub sides is better if you want to be /sure/ of being dry. Having
woken up on a patch of thawing snow in a bog with the groundsheet of a
tent *afloat* where I wasn't on it, this /can/ be a major factor, but
certainly isn't always.

Quoted message said:

* what about rain spatter through the sides if rain is driven?

Indeed. Also, what about trying to cook peacefully if there's a gale
blowing through the walls.

Quoted message said:

* what about condensation if you have a fixed groundsheet.

Not really any more of a problem than any other groundsheet, I'd think.

Quoted message said:

Its all about being confident that, come what the weather might throw
at you, you're safe in your cocoon (extremes of weather
notwithstanding).

Yes. And confidence is a lot of the game of enjoying yourself. While
it was good Epic Adventure Retelling Material being in a Spacepacker in
a Force 8 blizzard, I certainly didn't enjoy it at the time and being in
something I wasn't sure was up to the job made for a most unpleasant
night with very little sleep (being whacked on the head by the pole
bending in every then and now didn't exactly help with shuteye either...).

Quoted message said:

A knee-jerk reaction (from me) to the puzzles above would be to
dismiss tarp tents out of hand... but I can't justify the reaction
with answers to my queries. They seem to have a sizeable band of happy
followers in the States and, fundamentally, their range of nasty
weather is similar to our own

The US is a very big place and ranges climatically from icy mountain
through rainy temperate forest to sub tropical to dry desert. There's
an awful lot of scope for different weather and just because some
Americans are happy to use tarps in, say, the Grand Canyon, doesn't mean
they're good for a Colorado blizzard or a Florida hurricane.
I can think of times and places in the UK where I'd be happy to use
them, and times and places I wouldn't. The US, similarly but more so.

Quoted message said:

so it seems irrational to dismiss the
tarp tent by saying "our weather's worse than theirs(sic.)". Then
there's the weight, they're so--oo light!!

Lighter if you don't bugger about with groundsheets and mesh sides.

A tarp is a niche camping item: you won't have fun in it on every given
occasion, but it will be perfectly adequate in some instances and in
those you'll enjoy the walking more. Same goes for bivvi bags. Nothing
does it all, but one in the cupboard gives you more choices. As long as
you're not Really Dumb (winter on the Cairngorm Plateau in a tarp
wouldn't be my idea of smart, for example) and have a reasonable
standard of kit in general worst that is likely in the UK is a miserable
night and early bail out. Which is probably worth the risk if the
option is always lugging a Quasar with you "just in case". Choose your
degree of insurance and risk, and pay accordingly.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Paul Saunders said:

SteveO said:

They seem to have a sizeable band of happy
followers in the States and, fundamentally, their range of nasty
weather is similar to our own

"The States" is a big area. You can't generalise about the weather there.
Some parts are like northern Europe, others are like northern Africa! I'm
sure there are plenty of places in the States where the weather is sunny and
stable for long periods.

All true, and accepted. But there are also vast tracts where the
weather, I should think, could be equally as mixed and as downright
grotty as our own can be.... and if you're looking for a shelter
solution where "one size fits all", is it reasonable to dismiss them
so out of hand (as I did until recently), especially given the band of
happy campers using them, ower the watta!

What I'm trying to pin down, and I suspect I'm on something of a lost
cause in terms of looking for an unequivocal answer, is whether or not
trap tents are a viable option "over here". Maybe the unequivocal
answer is unattainable, but tending to the view point that a tarp tent
is a viable 3-season (sic!) optoin in the UK.

But I'm not entirely conviced either!! ;-)

My major concerns would be (a) midges, (b) driven rain and (c) midges.
Other MMV, o'course; for instance how resistant to nematode worms is
no-see-um mesh? ;-)

Its a pity they're not so easy to get your hands on to have a look.

--
SteveO