Trail Magazine

Peter Clinch said:

They are waterproof up to a point... Think of how vertically rain
falls in a gale force wind and you'll start to appreciate you need
more than a waterproof roof to have a waterproof shelter.

My nephew used a tarp and hammock in heavy rain at the Ystradfellte falls a
while back without problems. But of course we were in a forest and there
was no wind. I've used a tarp (crappy old flysheet actually) and bits of
string on a number of occasions without problems - usually in woodland but
once I just rigged it up against a crag, and another time I camped on a
summit in small depression with the tarp pegged over the top. They are
versatile. I've even camped in a forest in the rain using just a sheet of
plastic for shelter.

Quoted message said:

used to be standard on all tents and people did okay... but sewn in
with bathtub sides is better if you want to be /sure/ of being dry. Having
woken up on a patch of thawing snow in a bog with the
groundsheet of a tent *afloat* where I wasn't on it, this /can/ be a
major factor, but certainly isn't always.

I once woke up in a pool of water (having not checked the shape of the land
carefully enough the night before) and was very happy to have bathub sides!

Paul

SteveO said:

What I'm trying to pin down, and I suspect I'm on something of a lost
cause in terms of looking for an unequivocal answer, is whether or not
trap tents are a viable option "over here".

The unequivocal answer is "yes, in certain situations". :-)

Quoted message said:

My major concerns would be (a) midges,

Don't use them in the summer. I tried that once in a forest and regretted
it.

Quoted message said:

(b) driven rain

Use them in forests, sheltered from wind.

Quoted message said:

Its a pity they're not so easy to get your hands on to have a look.

I always thought a tarp was simply a large square of tent-type fabric, with
various guying points.

I'd say they are ideal for forest camping, outside of the midge season.
Some areas are well supplied with forests, Mid-Wales for example, and most
mountainous areas (in Wales at least) have plenty of nearby patches of
forest and woodland. If you plan a trip carefully you could ensure that you
end each day in woodland (if necessary). If wind and/or midges aren't a
problem then anywhere would do, just use your walking poles as tent poles,
or improvise with the terrain.

Paul

In message <[email hidden]>,
SteveO@?.?.invalid writes

Quoted message said:

Chris Townsend said:

Quoted message said:

I know what you mean. I love my Akto but it's very noisy in strong
wind. I think it's the zip-pulls on the vents at the end.

I cut off rattling zip-pulls and replace them with lengths of soft cord.

An interesting idea.

Is that the same principle that Alan Hinkes' design includes for the
zip-pulls /his/ Berghaus jacket? (I've not seen one in the flesh)

I think it is. I've not seen one in the flesh either. As well as not
rattling soft pulls are less likely to break and long ones are easier to
handle with gloves on.

Quoted message said:

BTW Chris, while you're around (if you're still here ;-), what's your
opinion regarding the tarp tents so beloved of the Merkins? I've not
had the chance to see one but I'm curious to know how
weather-resilient they are. I can't help but think that they're more
suited to climes different from our own but at the same time I think
that's a daft perspective on my part; I'm sure "weather" in the US is
the same as "weather" here in the UK?

The weather in the parts of the US where tarps are popular mostly isn't
the same as here! In particular it's much less windy. I like tarps and
have used them a great deal but mostly in the USA. I've done several
walks from two weeks to two months in length in the western USA using a
tarp. I also used one for a two week walk in the Alps. Here however I
only use them for short trips with a good weather forecast and never in
midge season. Tarps can withstand strong winds and lashing rain if
pitched low to the ground but life under them is more awkward and less
pleasant than in a good tent. Practice is needed with a tarp too so you
can pitch it effectively in bad weather.

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

SteveO said:

If you were making choices strongly driven by [ultra]lightweight
motives then a tarp, in the sense of a "tarp tent" and not just a
poncho or somesuch rigged as a basha, really does grab the attention.
Because they are waterproof and they are ultra light weight.

They are waterproof up to a point... Think of how vertically rain falls
in a gale force wind and you'll start to appreciate you need more than a
waterproof roof to have a waterproof shelter.

aye, but I knew that anyway ;-)

<snip my stuff about LDWs>

Quoted message said:

But you can probably rule out the wilder extremes just on statistical
chance, and if it comes down to it you can always bail out to a B&B or a
hostel for a day.

This is a fair point; in all situations you're staistically less
likely to encounter realy grotty weather.... so-oo is it, then, more
reasonable to start thinking more positively about the tarp tent for
use in the UK?

<snip my stiff about ability to stand up to a hoolie>

Quoted message said:

Blowing down isn't a problem, the problem is what the wind blows through
the (lack of) walls.

Hmm, yep, good point, hadn't thought of that one.

I suppose its a one of those considerations that you'd counter balance
against your objectives/activities: if you're at a fixed camp site
then in-tent comfort might be relatively higher up a list of
priorities. Whereas if you were out and about the possibility of such
discomfort would be counter-balanced by lower weight for the carry and
the lieklihood that you're less likely to stay put if the weather's
grotty, seeking respite away from the weather. Numbers in the party
and mode of transport also impact, of course.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* what about seepage/condensation if you don't have a fixed
groundsheet?

used to be standard on all tents and people did okay...

That's true and is something to remember, I'd forgotten that it used
to be so, in fact.

Quoted message said:

but sewn in with
bathtub sides is better if you want to be /sure/ of being dry. Having
woken up on a patch of thawing snow in a bog with the groundsheet of a
tent *afloat* where I wasn't on it, this /can/ be a major factor,

hehehe. How so?
;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* what about rain spatter through the sides if rain is driven?

Indeed. Also, what about trying to cook peacefully if there's a gale
blowing through the walls.

Yup. Vestibules with the majority of tarp tents seem to be
after-thoughts, if they exist at all.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Its all about being confident that, come what the weather might throw
at you, you're safe in your cocoon (extremes of weather
notwithstanding).

Yes. And confidence is a lot of the game of enjoying yourself.

Confidence/comfort/knowing you can /cope/.

Quoted message said:

While
it was good Epic Adventure Retelling Material being in a Spacepacker in
a Force 8 blizzard, I certainly didn't enjoy it at the time

:-)

Quoted message said:

and being in something I wasn't sure was up to the job made for a most
unpleasant night.

I can see how you would feel that way ;-)

Its with such as that in mind that I'm trying to ask/answer questions
about tarp tents.... on the face of it they would be almost summarily
to be dismissed for use in the UK.

But underneath it all, I'm not so sure. With no personal experience,
and only a little knowledge I can pile a shed-load of my own
prejudices on the tarp tent. But would those prejudices stand up to
scrutiny?

Yes, I know the obvious answer is to use the right shelter for the
occasion, but where do the edges of the envelope lie?

Quoted message said:

Nothing does it all, but one in the cupboard gives you more choices.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

and have a reasonable
standard of kit in general worst that is likely in the UK is a miserable
night and early bail out. Which is probably worth the risk if the
option is always lugging a Quasar with you "just in case".

Indeedomundo. Which, I think summarises my supposition that I was
being too dismissive, in my own mind, about the tarp tent.

Quoted message said:

Choose your degree of insurance and risk, and pay accordingly.

Hmm, or, alternately, consider your required level of [overall ;-) ]
comfort and then see what's left on the table?

--
SteveO

In message <[email hidden]>,
SteveO@?.?.invalid writes

Quoted message said:

Peter Clinch said:

SteveO said:

BTW Chris, while you're around (if you're still here ;-), what's your
opinion regarding the tarp tents so beloved of the Merkins?

Quoted message said:

Tarps have problems if there's too much wind (not so much from staying
up, but keeping the occupant out of the weather) and if there isn't any
at all (in summer, welcome a cloud of midges...), but that leaves plenty
of possible occasions to deploy one. It's similar for bivvi bags,

<snip>

Quoted message said:

As a compromise you can just take a tent flysheet

<snippety>

Quoted message said:

Camping from boats we've often taken tents /and/ tarps, tents for
sleeping peacefully, tarps for improving general campsite comfort.

I appreciate the take you're, er, taking Pete... _but_, and its a big
but because its kinda more of where I was drifting in from (although I
didn't say as much, or imply same in my post [because I'm still
forming an opionion about tarps a la Merkin]) : what if you were
making an either/or decision? The cash aspect has an implicit impact
here but I was more thinking of a lightweight scenario:

If you were making choices strongly driven by [ultra]lightweight
motives then a tarp, in the sense of a "tarp tent" and not just a
poncho or somesuch rigged as a basha, really does grab the attention.
Because they are waterproof and they are ultra light weight.

If you're intended use is something like the Pennine Way, TGO's
Thingumajig, or somesuch, where you're almost guaranteed a huge mix of
weather.

I wouldn't take a simple tarp on the TGO Challenge. However I would
consider a tent that pitches with trekking poles such as the Mountain
Equipment AR Ultralite. My first choice though would still be the
Hilleberg Akto. I'd save weight elsewhere.

I think of tarps as a simple sheet, perhaps slightly shaped at the ends
like some of the GoLite ones. Tarp-tents are a bit different. The
problem with the ones I've tried here is condensation as most are made
of single-skin non-breathable material. Seal yourself in and
condensation is copious.

Quoted message said:

Observations:
* mesh is usually no-see-um so midges can't get in... if you've got a
fixed ground sheet ;-)
* I have come across brands of tarp tents that are well-regarded for
their stability when its blowing a hoolie.

Considerations;
* they're single-skinned
* fixed ground sheets are optional
* bottom centimetres of the sides are usually mesh
* as are the front and back panels
(generalising because I don't know every brand - and would be
interested in knowing more tbh)

Puzzles:
The obvious questions, istm ... in fact they're down right puzzles to
me, are:
* what about seepage/condensation if you don't have a fixed
groundsheet?

Without a fixed groundsheet condensation can run down the walls and into
the ground. In my experience it still drips on you though. Care does
need to be taken to pitch on ground where puddles won't form or water
run across the groundsheet.

Quoted message said:

* what about rain spatter through the sides if rain is driven?

This can be a problem, especially if the tarp-tent is small.

Quoted message said:

* what about condensation if you have a fixed groundsheet.
* etc.

Can be copious!

Quoted message said:

Its all about being confident that, come what the weather might throw
at you, you're safe in your cocoon (extremes of weather
notwithstanding).

A knee-jerk reaction (from me) to the puzzles above would be to
dismiss tarp tents out of hand... but I can't justify the reaction
with answers to my queries. They seem to have a sizeable band of happy
followers in the States and, fundamentally, their range of nasty
weather is similar to our own so it seems irrational to dismiss the
tarp tent by saying "our weather's worse than theirs(sic.)". Then
there's the weight, they're so--oo light!!

Most wild camping in the States is in forests where you are sheltered
from wind and sideways driving rain. Tarps are excellent for this. Here
we usually camp in exposed places where strong winds are common.

In message <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

SteveO said:

They seem to have a sizeable band of happy
followers in the States and, fundamentally, their range of nasty
weather is similar to our own

"The States" is a big area. You can't generalise about the weather there.
Some parts are like northern Europe, others are like northern Africa! I'm
sure there are plenty of places in the States where the weather is sunny and
stable for long periods.

Mostly in the south and west. When I hiked the Arizona Trail, a two
month trip, I spent many nights sleeping under the stars. I used the
tarp to keep off winds occasionally and once for snow. On a 5 week trip
in the High Sierra in California I also slept out under the stars most
nights, including several above 10,000 feet. Again I very occasionally
pitched a tarp to keep off wind. It rained for twenty minutes in the
middle of one day but otherwise was dry. Heavy rain is possible in both
Arizona and the High Sierra of course. I would then have camped low down
in sheltered places.

SteveO said:

Yes, I know the obvious answer is to use the right shelter for the
occasion, but where do the edges of the envelope lie?

You said it yourself, wind and midges. But even wind isn't a problem in a
forest.

Carry a bivi bag too, then even if the worst happens, you'll be protected.

Paul

In message <[email hidden]>,
SteveO@?.?.invalid writes

Quoted message said:

Paul Saunders said:

SteveO said:

They seem to have a sizeable band of happy
followers in the States and, fundamentally, their range of nasty
weather is similar to our own

"The States" is a big area. You can't generalise about the weather there.
Some parts are like northern Europe, others are like northern Africa! I'm
sure there are plenty of places in the States where the weather is sunny and
stable for long periods.

All true, and accepted. But there are also vast tracts where the
weather, I should think, could be equally as mixed and as downright
grotty as our own can be.... and if you're looking for a shelter
solution where "one size fits all", is it reasonable to dismiss them
so out of hand (as I did until recently), especially given the band of
happy campers using them, ower the watta!

When I did a two week hike in the White Mountains in New Hampshire a
couple of years ago I asked advice of local hikers. All said I should
take a tent not a tarp. I did and was glad of it as I had heavy rain,
heavy wet snow and strong winds most nights. The ground was often very
wet too, making a sewn-in groundsheet welcome. I didn't see anybody
using a tarp. In fact most people had much heavier tents than my Akto.

Quoted message said:

What I'm trying to pin down, and I suspect I'm on something of a lost
cause in terms of looking for an unequivocal answer, is whether or not
trap tents are a viable option "over here". Maybe the unequivocal
answer is unattainable, but tending to the view point that a tarp tent
is a viable 3-season (sic!) optoin in the UK.

I think an unequivocal answer is unattainable. The best tarp-tents
probably would work okay here. However I think some of those described
as tarp-tents are really single-skin tents and not tarps at all.

Quoted message said:

But I'm not entirely conviced either!! ;-)

My major concerns would be (a) midges, (b) driven rain and (c) midges.

The first and last are why I don't use a tarp in Scotland between June
and September.

Quoted message said:

Other MMV, o'course; for instance how resistant to nematode worms is
no-see-um mesh? ;-)

Its a pity they're not so easy to get your hands on to have a look.

In message <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

SteveO said:

What I'm trying to pin down, and I suspect I'm on something of a lost
cause in terms of looking for an unequivocal answer, is whether or not
trap tents are a viable option "over here".

The unequivocal answer is "yes, in certain situations". :-)

Agreed :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My major concerns would be (a) midges,

Don't use them in the summer. I tried that once in a forest and regretted
it.

Same here :-(

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(b) driven rain

Use them in forests, sheltered from wind.

The best place for traditional tarps.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Its a pity they're not so easy to get your hands on to have a look.

I always thought a tarp was simply a large square of tent-type fabric, with
various guying points.

It can be rectangular :-). The situation is now confused by so-called
tarp-tents, which are single-skin tents that pitch with trekking poles.

Quoted message said:

I'd say they are ideal for forest camping, outside of the midge season.
Some areas are well supplied with forests, Mid-Wales for example, and most
mountainous areas (in Wales at least) have plenty of nearby patches of
forest and woodland. If you plan a trip carefully you could ensure that you
end each day in woodland (if necessary). If wind and/or midges aren't a
problem then anywhere would do, just use your walking poles as tent poles,
or improvise with the terrain.

Chris Townsend said:

My first choice though would still be the
Hilleberg Akto. I'd save weight elsewhere.

Since this was mentioned recently, how do you reckon the Laser compares to
the Akto in terms of standing up to bad weather, specifically strong winds?

Paul

In message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

SteveO said:

If you were making choices strongly driven by [ultra]lightweight
motives then a tarp, in the sense of a "tarp tent" and not just a
poncho or somesuch rigged as a basha, really does grab the attention.
Because they are waterproof and they are ultra light weight.

They are waterproof up to a point... Think of how vertically rain
falls in a gale force wind and you'll start to appreciate you need more
than a waterproof roof to have a waterproof shelter.

I sat out a 24 hour torrential downpour in the Alps under a tarp. There
was little wind and I was on a well drained site so I was quite
comfortable if a little bored.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If you're intended use is something like the Pennine Way, TGO's
Thingumajig, or somesuch, where you're almost guaranteed a huge mix of
weather.

But you can probably rule out the wilder extremes just on statistical
chance, and if it comes down to it you can always bail out to a B&B or
a hostel for a day.

Perhaps. I've done TGO Challenges where there were strong winds and rain
almost every day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Observations:
* mesh is usually no-see-um so midges can't get in... if you've got a
fixed ground sheet ;-)
* I have come across brands of tarp tents that are well-regarded for
their stability when its blowing a hoolie.

Blowing down isn't a problem, the problem is what the wind blows
through the (lack of) walls. If you can get a site sheltered from the
worst of it you'll be okay, depending on the degree of hairshirt you
take as comfort, but you can't guarantee that you'll be in a sheltered
spot for A Randon Wild Camp Spot.

Tarp-tents are shaped and can generally only be pitched in one
configuration. The advantage of tarps is that you can shape them to the
terrain and weather. A tarp spread low so you have to crawl under it and
lie down isn't going to blow away and not much is going to get under it.
It's not that comfortable though.

I know people who use bivvy bags under tarps to keep off wind driven
rain. The problem is that the weight then comes close to a lightweight
tent.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Puzzles:
The obvious questions, istm ... in fact they're down right puzzles to
me, are:
* what about seepage/condensation if you don't have a fixed
groundsheet?

used to be standard on all tents and people did okay... but sewn in
with bathtub sides is better if you want to be /sure/ of being dry.
Having woken up on a patch of thawing snow in a bog with the
groundsheet of a tent *afloat* where I wasn't on it, this /can/ be a
major factor, but certainly isn't always.

Quoted message said:

* what about rain spatter through the sides if rain is driven?

Indeed. Also, what about trying to cook peacefully if there's a gale
blowing through the walls.

If you pitch the tarp with the edges to the ground this is no more of a
problem than cooking in a tent porch with wind blowing under it. In fact
it can be easier under a tarp as you can place the stove where you like.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

* what about condensation if you have a fixed groundsheet.

Not really any more of a problem than any other groundsheet, I'd think.

But if the tarp-tent is single skin, as most are, it's harder to avoid
condensation dripping on you. I have been very damp in single-skin
tarp-tents!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Its all about being confident that, come what the weather might throw
at you, you're safe in your cocoon (extremes of weather
notwithstanding).

Yes. And confidence is a lot of the game of enjoying yourself. While
it was good Epic Adventure Retelling Material being in a Spacepacker in
a Force 8 blizzard, I certainly didn't enjoy it at the time and being
in something I wasn't sure was up to the job made for a most unpleasant
night with very little sleep (being whacked on the head by the pole
bending in every then and now didn't exactly help with shuteye either...).

Quoted message said:

A knee-jerk reaction (from me) to the puzzles above would be to
dismiss tarp tents out of hand... but I can't justify the reaction
with answers to my queries. They seem to have a sizeable band of happy
followers in the States and, fundamentally, their range of nasty
weather is similar to our own

The US is a very big place and ranges climatically from icy mountain
through rainy temperate forest to sub tropical to dry desert. There's
an awful lot of scope for different weather and just because some
Americans are happy to use tarps in, say, the Grand Canyon, doesn't
mean they're good for a Colorado blizzard or a Florida hurricane.
I can think of times and places in the UK where I'd be happy to use
them, and times and places I wouldn't. The US, similarly but more so.

Quoted message said:

so it seems irrational to dismiss the
tarp tent by saying "our weather's worse than theirs(sic.)". Then
there's the weight, they're so--oo light!!

Lighter if you don't bugger about with groundsheets and mesh sides.

A tarp is a niche camping item: you won't have fun in it on every given
occasion, but it will be perfectly adequate in some instances and in
those you'll enjoy the walking more. Same goes for bivvi bags.
Nothing does it all, but one in the cupboard gives you more choices.
As long as you're not Really Dumb (winter on the Cairngorm Plateau in a
tarp wouldn't be my idea of smart, for example) and have a reasonable
standard of kit in general worst that is likely in the UK is a
miserable night and early bail out. Which is probably worth the risk if
the option is always lugging a Quasar with you "just in case". Choose
your degree of insurance and risk, and pay accordingly.

Pete.

SteveO said:

All true, and accepted. But there are also vast tracts where the
weather, I should think, could be equally as mixed and as downright
grotty as our own can be....

Though the greater part of the US is continental and thus subject to a
more stable overall climate than our maritime one.

Quoted message said:

What I'm trying to pin down, and I suspect I'm on something of a lost
cause in terms of looking for an unequivocal answer, is whether or not
trap tents are a viable option "over here". Maybe the unequivocal
answer is unattainable, but tending to the view point that a tarp tent
is a viable 3-season (sic!) optoin in the UK.

That's about the size of it, though with the caveat that "3 season"
becomes even more meaningless than its usual (very high) level of
meaninglessness. Note, for example, Chris' reluctance to use them in
midge season.
Paul's "yes, in certain situations" covers it very well. Which same can
be said for a lot of tents, when you think about it. I certainly
wouldn't want to be in a Eurohike dome in a strong gale and strong gales
happen all through the year, but lots of people very successfully use
Eurohike domes as 3 season tents.

Quoted message said:

My major concerns would be (a) midges, (b) driven rain and (c) midges.

So that leaves you usually March through May and September and October
when there's a chunk of high pressure about. Or put another way,
exactly the sort of times and conditions you'll really enjoy yourself on
a backpacking trip.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Chris Townsend said:

I think an unequivocal answer is unattainable. The best tarp-tents
probably would work okay here. However I think some of those described
as tarp-tents are really single-skin tents and not tarps at all.

I was not familiar with this breed of animal at all, which ignorance on
my part will have coloured some replies upthread...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In message <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Chris Townsend said:

My first choice though would still be the
Hilleberg Akto. I'd save weight elsewhere.

Since this was mentioned recently, how do you reckon the Laser compares to
the Akto in terms of standing up to bad weather, specifically strong winds?

I tested a Laserlite and found it moves in the wind far more than the
Akto, though it did stay up in strong winds. I also found it harder to
keep away from the walls and the transfer of condensation to my sleeping
bag. I haven't tried the Laser but the design is the same as the
Laserlite.

Paul Saunders said:

Quoted message said:

Its a pity they're not so easy to get your hands on to have a look.

I always thought a tarp was simply a large square of tent-type fabric, with
various guying points.

Y'know when you just can't remember where _that_ link was? ;-)
(and look how many more to the fred since last I was in these 'ere
parts ;-)

No, sorry Paul, I wasn't intentionally clouding the issue;

- I wasn't meaning the (obvious ;-) interpretation, a la Ray Mears,
with the standard, er, tarp staked or suspended from a couple of
trees.

- I was thinking about the hybrid creature as ideally illustrated by
this little tinker:

http://www.tarptent.com

There are some interesting photos in their gallery pages:

http://www.tarptent.com/gallery.html

Interestingly, I came first to that site via BPGT;

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Shelters/Tarps%20and%20Bivys/Tarptent%20Squall/

(no the wonder I didn't find it straight away via google, I'd got
there in a roundabout fashion anyway)

--
SteveO

Chris Townsend said:

Quoted message said:

All true, and accepted. But there are also vast tracts where the
weather, I should think, could be equally as mixed and as downright
grotty as our own can be.... and if you're looking for a shelter
solution where "one size fits all", is it reasonable to dismiss them
so out of hand (as I did until recently), especially given the band of
happy campers using them, ower the watta!

When I did a two week hike in the White Mountains in New Hampshire a
couple of years ago I asked advice of local hikers. All said I should
take a tent not a tarp. I did and was glad of it as I had heavy rain,
heavy wet snow and strong winds most nights. The ground was often very
wet too, making a sewn-in groundsheet welcome. I didn't see anybody
using a tarp. In fact most people had much heavier tents than my Akto.

Ah, many thanks Chris; meat onto the bones.

Quoted message said:

I think an unequivocal answer is unattainable. The best tarp-tents
probably would work okay here. However I think some of those described
as tarp-tents are really single-skin tents and not tarps at all.

That's a good point, and a reasonable distinction to bear in mind. I
think the beasts I'be been thinking about really do fall into the
"single skin tent" category; especially since I'd be loathe to go
without the all-in-one construction; anywhere the buggrin midges can
get in they will!! 8-]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My major concerns would be (a) midges, (b) driven rain and (c) midges.

The first and last are why I don't use a tarp in Scotland between June
and September.

hehe, I'd have thought your natural immunity would have built up by
now ;-)

--
SteveO

Peter Clinch said:

SteveO wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

My major concerns would be (a) midges, (b) driven rain and (c) midges.

So that leaves you usually March through May and September and October
when there's a chunk of high pressure about. Or put another way,
exactly the sort of times and conditions you'll really enjoy yourself on
a backpacking trip.

What an excellent thought :-)

--
SteveO

Chris Townsend said:

Quoted message said:

If you're intended use is something like the Pennine Way, TGO's
Thingumajig, or somesuch, where you're almost guaranteed a huge mix of
weather.

I wouldn't take a simple tarp on the TGO Challenge. However I would
consider a tent that pitches with trekking poles such as the Mountain
Equipment AR Ultralite. My first choice though would still be the
Hilleberg Akto.

<snipped to higlight a point>

Quoted message said:

I'd save weight elsewhere.

Very informative and thought-provoking conclusion Chris, thanks for
that.

I'd had my attention drawn to tarp tents by their weight. There's been
some interesting thoughts and opinions from everyone in this thread...
very useful to come back to another route to a "conclusion".

(Interesting, Chris, your comments re the advice you received about
The Whites too.)

I think the point above about saving weight elsewhere for general UK
usage is a useful point to draw focus upon. It seems to me that, in
terms of the one-size-shelter-fits-all consideration (search for
nirvana?) that the tarp tent doesn't come close enough for it to be a
reasonable consideration.

That said, under certain circumstances it seems a reasonable, tho not
oft considered alternative.

Quoted message said:

Tarp-tents are a bit different. The
problem with the ones I've tried here is condensation as most are made
of single-skin non-breathable material. Seal yourself in and
condensation is copious.

This is /not/ a Good Thing Martha!

Quoted message said:

Most wild camping in the States is in forests where you are sheltered
from wind and sideways driving rain. Tarps are excellent for this. Here
we usually camp in exposed places where strong winds are common.

Thanks for the insight into your first-hand experience Chris.

--
SteveO

SteveO said:

I think the point above about saving weight elsewhere for general UK
usage is a useful point to draw focus upon. It seems to me that, in
terms of the one-size-shelter-fits-all consideration (search for
nirvana?) that the tarp tent doesn't come close enough for it to be a
reasonable consideration.

That said, under certain circumstances it seems a reasonable, tho not
oft considered alternative.

And considering that /nothing/ is one-size-fits-all, that's still
useful. I have 3 different 2 man tents (the light one, the strong one
and the big one) and deploy what seems to be the best tool for the job
at the time. They don't cover all the possible jobs perfectly either.

To some extent the "best tool for the job" approach depends on you being
a Sad Gear Junkie with spare cash, but I think it's fair to categorise a
few of the regulars here in those sorts of terms (raises hand). I can
think of other priorities I have for money (why I don't have a tarp),
but if^H^Hwhen my lottery numbers come up I'll have one two of
Hilleberg's...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

SteveO said:

There are some interesting photos in their gallery pages:

http://www.tarptent.com/gallery.html

I see. That's not Phil Cook in the "Squall at Mount Everest" pic is it?
:-)

Paul