Ultimate Spaghetti sauce--Your secrets/methods?

x-no-archive: yes

Scapaflow said:

I've been experimenting with sauce for pasta for many years. When I speak of sauce, I'm thinking of
the most sublime, whether Marinara, Bolognese, etc.

One that I don't notice on your list is a base of mirepoix-- finely cut-up onion, carrot, celery
which has been softened in olive oil. You can speed up this step by putting ingredients in a food
processor but it comes out better if you cut it up by hand. A real addition to any tomato-based
sauce IMO.

Some of the other things on your list, I wouldn't do, and others I wouldn't comment on not knowing
the specific kind of sauce.

For herbs you might try marjoram and parsely and, sure, thyme. Not all at once though, IMO.
(Marjoram is a bit like oregano but milder.)

Quoted message said:

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

In the sauce? Dry red.

Naomi D.

Scapaflow said:

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

Please don't be offended, but I'm thinking heartburn. Plus I do not like wine in my sauce, but
again, that's me. Easy on the grease.

I would throw in a couple of country style pork ribs, or other pork chops. They add much flavor and
texture to the sauce, as taught to me by my ex mil who learned from her mother from Sicily.

nancy

Quoted message said:

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

Finally--A superior sauce is utterly subjective, of course. I'm interested in your agonies and
ecstasies.

Scapaflow

I prefer my sauce to not be sweet and am careful about the tomatoes and the sauce, I also like
to add some red wine during the simmer, beef broth can also add a lot of flavor if you feel you
need it. Rosie

"Scapaflow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been experimenting with sauce for pasta for many years. When I speak of sauce, I'm thinking
of the most sublime, whether Marinara, Bolognese, etc.

I've converged on a recipe/process that yields a satisfying result, but I know much better is
possible.

Some conclusions:

* The quality of canned tomato products is critical. Hunt's once yielded good results but I now
get an excessively sharp, tangy sauce from their products. Tuttorosso plums now yield my best
sauce. My garden Romas or San Marzanos have always yielded sauces inferior to that made with
canned products.

* More bacon fat and less Olive oil. I saute everything in Bacon fat and a small amount of Olive
oil. Bacon fat seems to mellow the sauce and add richness.

* Peppers: I've been adding one each--chopped, sauted green, yellow and red sweet pepper. Seems
to naturally contribute to the proper note of sweetness, as does lightly browned onion, of
which I add
1/2 - 1 chopped. I do add perhaps 1/2 teaspoon brown sugar. Onion variety? Sweet, yellow, red,
white--I've not come to any conclusions.

* Portobello mushrooms in rather large quantities, browned in butter.

* Meat--I'm now using pork sausage almost exclusively. I have a local real butcher that produces
superior sausage. I do not drain any fats from my sauce.

* Extensive simmering times, 3-4 hours.

* Garlic: Less is better. We're garlic nuts but I now add 1-2 cloves shredded instead of 5-6,
depending on clove size and garlic flavor intensity.

* Spices and seasoning: Rather simple, Kosher salt, ground black pepper, fresh or dried Basil,
dash Worcestershire which I think adds complexity. Wife hates Oregano. Not tried bay leaves,
parsley, thyme, etc.

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

Finally--A superior sauce is utterly subjective, of course. I'm interested in your agonies and
ecstasies.

Scapaflow

==
My "secret ingredient" was always Frank's Ketchup Spice. I haven't been able to find it for years
and do not recall what was in it to blend my own.
==
==

Quoted message said:

Scapaflow said:

I've been experimenting with sauce for pasta for many years. When I speak of sauce, I'm thinking of
the most sublime, whether Marinara, Bolognese, etc.

I've converged on a recipe/process that yields a satisfying result, but I know much better is
possible.

Since I almost never repeat myself eactly, this may not be completely responsive to the idea of
zeroing in on a perfect anything.

I usually start by chopping an onion. This gives me a few moments to think of what to do next.
trowing in a bay leaf with the onion doesn't hurt.

The fat can vary. Sometimes I dice an ounce or so of cured guanciale (pig snout or jowl) and render
it a bit before putting in the chopped onion. But sometimes I just use OO. Local smoked bacon from
my pig man is also nice (Jim Grillo comes to the Saturday Greenmarket in Union Sq., NYC).

If it gets cooked a lot I think lots of garlic is good. If you put it in just at the end a little
caution is advisable.

When good tomatoes are coming in at the greenmarket, I like to blanche, seed, and dice some of
those, but I usually use some good canned tomatoes along with.

Sometimes a little hot sauce. If you can put in just shy of enough to tell it's there, it adds depth
to a sauce.

I like bitter Morrocan olives, pitted and cut up. as little punctuation marks in a sauce. Also, if
you can get some white anchovies, they can add something subtle, without being recognized.

I think you should try fresh thyme once in a while. It works well with the other things you use.

If your pasta is really good, you could use nothing but butter, garlic, and mushrooms. Use some
shiitake caps along with your portobellos.

Rodney Myrvaagnes J36 Gjo/a

Does one child rape really change Strom Thurmond's lifetime record? For better or worse?

Scapaflow said:

I've been experimenting with sauce for pasta for many years. When I speak of sauce, I'm thinking of
the most sublime, whether Marinara, Bolognese, etc.

I've converged on a recipe/process that yields a satisfying result, but I know much better is
possible.

Some conclusions:

* The quality of canned tomato products is critical. Hunt's once yielded good results but I now get
an excessively sharp, tangy sauce from their products. Tuttorosso plums now yield my best sauce.
My garden Romas or San Marzanos have always yielded sauces inferior to that made with canned
products.

* More bacon fat and less Olive oil. I saute everything in Bacon fat and a small amount of Olive
oil. Bacon fat seems to mellow the sauce and add richness.

* Peppers: I've been adding one each--chopped, sauted green, yellow and red sweet pepper. Seems
to naturally contribute to the proper note of sweetness, as does lightly browned onion, of
which I add
1/2 - 1 chopped. I do add perhaps 1/2 teaspoon brown sugar. Onion variety? Sweet, yellow, red,
white--I've not come to any conclusions.

* Portobello mushrooms in rather large quantities, browned in butter.

* Meat--I'm now using pork sausage almost exclusively. I have a local real butcher that produces
superior sausage. I do not drain any fats from my sauce.

* Extensive simmering times, 3-4 hours.

* Garlic: Less is better. We're garlic nuts but I now add 1-2 cloves shredded instead of 5-6,
depending on clove size and garlic flavor intensity.

* Spices and seasoning: Rather simple, Kosher salt, ground black pepper, fresh or dried Basil, dash
Worcestershire which I think adds complexity. Wife hates Oregano. Not tried bay leaves, parsley,
thyme, etc.

How do you make it taste Italian without those? And you should really try slipping in some Oregano
on the sly... It really brings out the tomato flavor. Skip the Worcestershire. (Or not, it's your
sauce!) If the tomatoes you are growing are not to your liking, don't resort to canned tomatoes for
the sauce. Buy some fresh that you *do* like. With the amount of simmering you're doing, they
should blend in wonderfully. If not, pop in a small can of tomato paste to thicken and add more
body. Drain at least some fat from the sauce, definitely not all, as you know. Some "good" ground
beef mixed with that pork sausage you're using will do you a world of good. That's all. This was a
drive by post.

Quoted message said:

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

Finally--A superior sauce is utterly subjective, of course. I'm interested in your agonies and
ecstasies.

Scapaflow

--
candeh

a pinch of cinnamon - never more than 1/4 teaspoon..

--

Laura

"Scapaflow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've been experimenting with sauce for pasta for many years. When I speak of sauce, I'm thinking
of the most sublime, whether Marinara, Bolognese, etc.

I've converged on a recipe/process that yields a satisfying result, but I know much better is
possible.

Some conclusions:

* The quality of canned tomato products is critical. Hunt's once yielded good results but I now
get an excessively sharp, tangy sauce from their products. Tuttorosso plums now yield my best
sauce. My garden Romas or San Marzanos have always yielded sauces inferior to that made with
canned products.

* More bacon fat and less Olive oil. I saute everything in Bacon fat and a small amount of Olive
oil. Bacon fat seems to mellow the sauce and add richness.

* Peppers: I've been adding one each--chopped, sauted green, yellow and red sweet pepper. Seems
to naturally contribute to the proper note of sweetness, as does lightly browned onion, of
which I add
1/2 - 1 chopped. I do add perhaps 1/2 teaspoon brown sugar. Onion variety? Sweet, yellow, red,
white--I've not come to any conclusions.

* Portobello mushrooms in rather large quantities, browned in butter.

* Meat--I'm now using pork sausage almost exclusively. I have a local real butcher that produces
superior sausage. I do not drain any fats from my sauce.

* Extensive simmering times, 3-4 hours.

* Garlic: Less is better. We're garlic nuts but I now add 1-2 cloves shredded instead of 5-6,
depending on clove size and garlic flavor intensity.

* Spices and seasoning: Rather simple, Kosher salt, ground black pepper, fresh or dried Basil,
dash Worcestershire which I think adds complexity. Wife hates Oregano. Not tried bay leaves,
parsley, thyme, etc.

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

Finally--A superior sauce is utterly subjective, of course. I'm interested in your agonies and
ecstasies.

Scapaflow

Quoted message said:

Scapaflow said:

I've been experimenting with sauce for pasta for many years. When I speak of sauce, I'm thinking
of the most sublime, whether Marinara, Bolognese, etc.

One that I don't notice on your list is a base of mirepoix-- finely cut-up onion, carrot, celery
which has been softened in olive oil. You can speed up this step by putting ingredients in a food
processor but it comes out better if you cut it up by hand. A real addition to any tomato-based
sauce IMO.

Naomi, Interesting you note that Mirepoix cut-up by hand is superior to that rendered by a food
processor. I've not tried Mirepoix, but this observation is very interesting, reinforcing my
conclusion that process, sequence and method can be very important important.

Do you have a theory as to why cut up by hand is superior to using a food processor? Scapa

Quoted message said:

Some of the other things on your list, I wouldn't do, and others I wouldn't comment on not knowing
the specific kind of sauce.

Would you care to discuss why you would not do certain things? I am utterly open to suggestions.
Regarding the kind of sauce: I would say that what I'm producing currently is a sort of Bolegnese
since ground pork/beef has been a cornerstone. I did not include an exact recipe for fear of tedium
and the ongoing evolution of my sauce.

Quoted message said:

For herbs you might try marjoram and parsely and, sure, thyme. Not all at once though, IMO.
(Marjoram is a bit like oregano but milder.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

In the sauce? Dry red.

Recommendations? Scapaflow

Quoted message said:

Naomi D.

Nancy Young said:

Scapaflow said:

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

Please don't be offended, but I'm thinking heartburn. Plus I do not like wine in my sauce, but
again, that's me. Easy on the grease.

Nancy, Heartburn--I assume you are referring to the practice of not draining the grease and liquids
from the meat. Yes--I used to do this as a matter of course and was surprised to discover that we
liked the result better without draining.

In past batches I've tried various whites and reds and have never been quite satisfied with
the result.

Quoted message said:

I would throw in a couple of country style pork ribs, or other pork chops. They add much flavor and
texture to the sauce, as taught to me by my ex mil who learned from her mother from Sicily.

Noted! Scapaflow

Quoted message said:

nancy

Gini said:

==
My "secret ingredient" was always Frank's Ketchup Spice. I haven't been able to find it for years
and do not recall what was in it to blend my own.
==
==

I got interested in seeing if I could find it for you so I googled. I wasn't able to find it, but I
came close, sort of. Looking for "Frank's Catsup Spice" (note alternate spelling), I found someone
selling old tins. I wonder if the ingredients could be found on the tin so you could make it from
available spices. (marsellz.11net.comjars2.htmOpen ↗) It is called "Frank's Dove Brand Catsup
Spice." Google had another link that looked promising, but then I couldn't get that one to work.

--Lia

Quoted post said:

If the tomatoes you are growing are not to your liking, don't resort to canned tomatoes for
the sauce.

I don't know what your experience has been with them, but I find canned tomatoes to be perfectly
good for tomato sauce. Sometimes I even prefer them to fresh, even at the height of tomato season.

nancy

Scapaflow said:

Quoted message said:

Scapaflow said:

I've been experimenting with sauce for pasta for many years. When I speak of sauce, I'm thinking
of the most sublime, whether Marinara, Bolognese, etc.

One that I don't notice on your list is a base of mirepoix-- finely cut-up onion, carrot, celery
which has been softened in olive oil. You can speed up this step by putting ingredients in a food
processor but it comes out better if you cut it up by hand. A real addition to any tomato-based
sauce IMO.

Naomi, Interesting you note that Mirepoix cut-up by hand is superior to that rendered by a food
processor. I've not tried Mirepoix, but this observation is very interesting, reinforcing my
conclusion that process, sequence and method can be very important important.

Do you have a theory as to why cut up by hand is superior to using a food processor? Scapa

Probably because you liquefy some of the ingredients, and this, when added to oil, is not a pretty
picture. You want uniformity, which a processor sometimes can't give.

Rich

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Some of the other things on your list, I wouldn't do, and others I wouldn't comment on not knowing
the specific kind of sauce.

Would you care to discuss why you would not do certain things? I am utterly open to suggestions.
Regarding the kind of sauce: I would say that what I'm producing currently is a sort of Bolegnese
since ground pork/beef has been a cornerstone. I did not include an exact recipe for fear of
tedium and the ongoing evolution of my sauce.

Quoted message said:

For herbs you might try marjoram and parsely and, sure, thyme. Not all at once though, IMO.
(Marjoram is a bit like oregano but milder.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

In the sauce? Dry red.

Recommendations? Scapaflow

Quoted message said:

Naomi D.

--
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Dum spiro, spero. (Cicero) As long as I breathe, I hope.

"Scapaflow" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In past batches I've tried various whites and reds and have never been quite satisfied with
the result.

I frequently use red vermouth. It is very hearty and adds a lot of depth. It is somewhat sweet so I
don't add extra sugar as I otherwise would.

Charlie

"Julia Altshuler" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:FQ5Jb.712314$HS4.5098628@attbi_s01...

Quoted message said:

Gini said:

==
My "secret ingredient" was always Frank's Ketchup Spice. I haven't been able to find it for
years and do not recall what was in it to blend my

own.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

==
==

I got interested in seeing if I could find it for you so I googled. I wasn't able to find it, but
I came close, sort of. Looking for "Frank's Catsup Spice" (note alternate spelling), I found
someone selling old tins. I wonder if the ingredients could be found on the tin so you could make
it from available spices.

==
Thanks! I hadn't thought of that. I'm sure I can get a tin quite cheaply on eBay
==

Quoted message said:

(marsellz.11net.comjars2.htmOpen ↗) It is called "Frank's Dove Brand Catsup Spice." Google had
another link that looked promising, but then I couldn't get that one to work.

--Lia

Quoted message said:

From: [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

One that I don't notice on your list is a base of mirepoix-- finely cut-up onion, carrot, celery
which has been softened in olive oil.

A requisite for my Sunday Gravy recipe...not necessarily for my family's meat sauce, and never
for marinara.

Quoted message said:

it comes out better if you cut it up by hand.

Definitely. And well sweated out in olive oil before adding any meat or tomato products.

Quoted message said:

For herbs you might try marjoram and parsely and, sure, thyme. Not all at once though, IMO.
(Marjoram is a bit like oregano but milder.)

Sunday Gravy includes dried herbs including marjoram, oregano, thyme and sweet basil and moderate
amounts of garlic.

Family's Meat sauce includes only dried oregano and basil and abundant amounts of fresh garlic, both
whole cloves and some finely minced.

Marinara includes garlic puree, fresh basil and fresh oregano.

Quoted message said:

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

Sunday Gravy uses wine to deglaze the pan the mirepoix is cooked in...and reduced before the crushed
tomatoes are added.

Family's Meat Sauce uses 32 oz of Budweiser beer, added with crushed tomatoes, tomato paste and
chunky tomato sauce.

Marinara has one cup of red wine added to the onion/garlic melange and simmered briefly over medium
high heat before adding crushed tomatoes. Fresh basil and oregano is added after 45 minutes of
simmering. This sauce is cooked down and then emuslfied in a food processor.

Note: Other ingredients/methods are not included as they weren't directly addressed.

Ellen

[email hidden] (SportKite1) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From: [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

One that I don't notice on your list is a base of mirepoix-- finely cut-up onion, carrot, celery
which has been softened in olive oil.

A requisite for my Sunday Gravy recipe...not necessarily for my family's meat sauce, and never for
marinara.

Quoted message said:

it comes out better if you cut it up by hand.

Definitely. And well sweated out in olive oil before adding any meat or tomato products.

Quoted message said:

For herbs you might try marjoram and parsely and, sure, thyme. Not all at once though, IMO.
(Marjoram is a bit like oregano but milder.)

Sunday Gravy includes dried herbs including marjoram, oregano, thyme and sweet basil and moderate
amounts of garlic.

Family's Meat sauce includes only dried oregano and basil and abundant amounts of fresh garlic,
both whole cloves and some finely minced.

Marinara includes garlic puree, fresh basil and fresh oregano.

Quoted message said:

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

Sunday Gravy uses wine to deglaze the pan the mirepoix is cooked in...and reduced before the
crushed tomatoes are added.

Family's Meat Sauce uses 32 oz of Budweiser beer, added with crushed tomatoes, tomato paste and
chunky tomato sauce.

Marinara has one cup of red wine added to the onion/garlic melange and simmered briefly over
medium high heat before adding crushed tomatoes. Fresh basil and oregano is added after 45 minutes
of simmering. This sauce is cooked down and then emuslfied in a food processor.

Note: Other ingredients/methods are not included as they weren't directly addressed.

Ellen

WARNING: Probable Heresy I start with jarred sauce - Prego, Ragu, whatever's on sale. Preferably
with chunky tomato and onion or mushrooms. NOT HUNT'S in the can!!!!!!! And no "generic" stuff
either. Add sauteed ground beef and/or mild pork sausage, onions, peppers, mushrooms - whatever's
"missing" fom the jar. Don't drain anything. Add a little EVOO if there are a lot of veggies to
saute. A fat pinch of sugar, a shot of Tabasco, a couple of bay leaves and some basil (actually, a
LOT of basil). I taste and adjust, simmering for about 30 to 45 minutes. Always linguini instead of
finer spaghetti or vermicelli because it's easier to cook perfectly al dente. Serve with freshly
grated parmesan or romano or aged provolone.

I would be doing this at work - psychosocial rehabilitation center. Members are folks with serious
and persistant mental illnesses. Virtually all are poor and a fair number are homeless.We feed
people every day. Sometimes sandwiches & soup, sometimes potroast with all the trimmings. I nver
know until 1/2 hour before serving if I will be feeding 8, 18 or 28. (Almost NEVER more than 30)
That's why the jarred sauce - I can adjust in minutes if 12 more hungry mouths show up. They do not
pay for meals except for a "special" dinner once a month for $2 in advance (or $5 the same day) And
lately we've been taking a buck for dinner on Fridays. If they have no money we feed them anyway.

You shoulda seen our New Year's Party hors d'oeuvres!

Lynn from Fargo

Scapaflow <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

*snip*

What are your experiences regarding process?

For a marinara sauce, my secret is using plenty of sugar and kosher salt. As long as you balance
them out with one another, it gives the sauce more depth and rounds out the flavor of the tomatoes.

As for bolognese, I simmer some milk with the meat after it has been browned, which makes the meat
sweet and tender. Also, I use a LOT of dry red wine, and a little minced pancetta.

--Erica

Scapaflow <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

Finally--A superior sauce is utterly subjective, of course. I'm interested in your agonies and
ecstasies.

Scapaflow

If I found bacon in my Spaghetti sauce, I think I'd barf.

I use beef - well I used to. I now use turkey - ground (1#) and ground turkey Italian
sausage (1/2#).

I agree with you WRT the canned toms - they have to be sweet. But I add a little karo to the sauce
if it is too acidic. (One 20 oz canned chopped tomatoes, one small canned sauce (12 oz.), one small
can (3 0z.) paste)

I start with browned meat - pretty well browned. Sautee chopped (1cm) veggies: yellow onion (1
large) and green onion (1 bunch, with half of the tops) and green pepper (1 large) - sometimes red
or yellow - in margerine. Add chopped mushrooms - a couple different types, coarsely sliced (portos
and white - about a lb.). Sometimes add chopped zuchini (2-3 small). Throw everything in a big pot
with the canned tomatoes, add 3-4 cloves of crushed garlic, oregano, basil*, thyme*, rosemary* (*or
a dried "Italian blend" mix), coarse and fine ground black pepper. Dollop of karo if it needs it
(after simmering four hours or so). Simmer on low for two days before serving.

I also make a vegan sauce the same way by omitting the meat.

-L.

Rosie, Beef broth--canned or homemade? Scapaflow

(RMiller) said:

Quoted message said:

What are your experiences regarding process? What about wine?

Finally--A superior sauce is utterly subjective, of course. I'm interested in your agonies and
ecstasies.

Scapaflow

I prefer my sauce to not be sweet and am careful about the tomatoes and the sauce, I also like to
add some red wine during the simmer, beef broth can also add a lot of flavor if you feel you need
it. Rosie