Weight training and cycling.



DAL1955

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Jan 20, 2011
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Originally Posted by DeadLights .



That's a good question. 2 minutes of a hill that's so steep I have to punch it in my car to not lose speed is a big hill to me.
Down here, an interstate overpass qualifies as a big hill....
 

swampy1970

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Feb 3, 2008
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Originally Posted by fuzzed .



Quote: Originally Posted by swampy1970 .


Hate to break it too ya but a 2 minute hill, regardless of gradient, isn't all that big. 2 minutes is enough to kill the legs if you have to go very hard for that period of time just to get up the hill but you don't have to try and pedal fast - you can get out of the saddle and roll the gear over at 50rpm if it means that you're not really hurting at the top.
Just out of curiousity, from a newbie point of view, and not meaning to hijack the thread, but what is a time definition of a "big" hill for us in a non mountain area? From a time perspective or distance?



When I was a flat-lander, a big hill would have been, for me, something that the fast lads could get up in about 10 minutes - that was back when I was living in England and big hills took closer to 11 minutes (I was 145lbs and an FTP ~340 watts)

Now that I'm living in California with added lard and less push, the cut off for a big hill is one that gains about 2,500ft in altitude and climbs for about an hour. A "big hill" (note the emphasis) would be something like the climb up White Mountain near Bishop, CA - 20 miles, gains 6,000ft (topping out at just over 10,000ft) with extended sections of 10%. Ride those a few times and the smaller hills need silly steep gradients to seem daunting.

But going back to gearing, the first time I went up a big hill in California was in the Death Ride back in 2005. I'd been off the bike close to a decade, entered the Death Ride (125ish miles, 15,000ft of climbing and 5 passes at altitude) with the intent of losing a boat load of weight gained from years of microbrews and BBQ's and getting back into shape. What happened was that I entered the event and got a ticket in the event lottery... and slacked off training. Being that I'd gone from 145lbs to near 230lbs, slacking wasn't a good thing... Less that 3 months to the event I finally got on the bike, lost almost 30lbs and for the first time ever installed a third chainring - a 26 (53/39/26). I still had my old road racing bike from the mid 90's where my small sprocket was a 23 (39x23 was good from 1 in 4 - or 25% in modern money - for short hillclimbs). My head was still back in the 90's but my body wasn't. Needless to say that first little hill on my first ride was an absolute mindfcuk - I have that burned in my mind and it's worse than anything Freddy Krueger could dredge up. I figured that I'd popped both tires, both hubs had seized and one of the brakes was stuck on. My head was thinking 39x15 and my legs were thinking "fark off and walk" as I was pedallng something on the 26 ring for the first time ever - 12 weeks of that and the legs were still thinking the same. Needless to say when the Death Ride rolled around much suffering was had. On the second climb of the day that featured a fun 7.6 miles of 7.5% with the added bonus of a few more miles at a lesser gradient into a headwind, I noticed that the road in my peripheral vision was seemingly moving faster than the road my eyeballs were staring directly at. Just what you need at 9am...

... but the moral of all that is gearing. If I'd been bothered to swap that 23 for a 26 (it was a 7 speed freewheel) I would have had a much easier time and the speed probably wouldn't have been that much different. Note to any people that don't resemble twigs - don't listen to what really skinny people have to say about climbs. That "not so steep" really is steep and you will suffer. You will suffer lots...

These days I'm much lighter and much fitter than 2005. For the Death Ride I use the same gearing that I have on for the Alta Alpina Challenge - 198 miles, 8 passes, 21,000ft climbing. The two events feature the same climbs except the Death Ride gets the hard climbs done in the first 70 miles, the Alta Alpina starts the hard climbs at mile 125... but it's fun on the Death Ride to have the 34x32 and sit and spin that gear in the very steep hairpin bends on Ebbetts just because I can and I can because I keep that gear on there because a bail out gear in the big hills is a great thing to have. If Mr God of the big hills, Alberto Contador can use 34x32 in the Giro d'Italia then then likes of you and I can use those gears when required - and use them to your advantage.

When it comes to gearing use common sense, not fashion. Fashion? Fcuk fashion... how cool do you look when you're beet red, huffing like a broken steam engine and about ready to pass out or even worse, walking?
 

fuzzed

New Member
Apr 9, 2012
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Originally Posted by swampy1970 .


how cool do you look when you're beet red, huffing like a broken steam engine and about ready to pass out or even worse, walking?

Nice image there, seems vaguely familiar for some reason... I will keep that one in mind... lol.
 

jsirabella

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Jan 1, 2005
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DL->Being the poster child for back issues, there are things you can do that can help you ride longer and stronger but in the end you will come to realize that you will have to cut it back a bit to compensate. My PT and especially my doctor save my life and they basically say the same thing. You can go pretty much as hard as you had but you will not be able to do it as often or you will run into issues.

I strongly suggest finding a CERTIFIED MCKENZIE therapist in your area. It changed my life.

-js
 

DeadLights

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Apr 9, 2011
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Originally Posted by jsirabella .

DL->Being the poster child for back issues, there are things you can do that can help you ride longer and stronger but in the end you will come to realize that you will have to cut it back a bit to compensate. My PT and especially my doctor save my life and they basically say the same thing. You can go pretty much as hard as you had but you will not be able to do it as often or you will run into issues.

I strongly suggest finding a CERTIFIED MCKENZIE therapist in your area. It changed my life.

-js

Thanks.

I have been eating advil like candy all week. It's helping. For now I'm going to push myself as hard as I can. I'll listen to my body and adjust accordingly.

Yesterday it didn't hurt near as bad as it has been. My doctor said I can push as hard as my back will allow. Perhaps in time it will get used to this, as someone said in this thread, my back isn't used to being in the bike position.
 

jsirabella

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DL-> Advil = Candy??? Not good. I have heard the old "go as hard as your back will allow". The problem with that, there is no red light that blinks as you are approaching breaking point. It will just lock! You do not want to go there.

As for MEDS, try tylenol as it will not screw up your stomach and flushes out of your system in 24 hours. My guideline is if you need more than 2 during the day and maybe 1 or 2 at night, you need to cut back. I never ride more than 3 days in a row. My back would not be happy.

As for the seat, Dave pretty much nailed it, in that you should try to tilt a bit up and move it closer to the bars. Try put a bit more pressure on the privates than the seat bones. When riding keep the shoulder blades down and relax. Never hunch.

The further down your leg the pain goes, the worse it is, if you make changes and it is still there but only goes to your hip or thigh, you are doing better.

PM me if you would like any further advice.

-js

Look into doing cobra move! Check youtube video and try them. They will help.
 

CAMPYBOB

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Sep 12, 2005
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Damn! A bunch of old farts with blown out backs!

Can I join the club? Had a 1985 Camaro run up the ass of one of my Pinarellos in 1993...comp fractures on L1 & L2. lots of soft tissue damage and lots of pain after a lovely 40' flight thru space without an airplane.

I don't take Advil or Tylenol. I do Bayer aspirin.

Side story: A team mate had semi-fluxored knees and was alway eating handfulls of aspirin. Worried about his consumtion levels, he asked his doc about the possibility of damaging his organs or overdosing. The doctor told him he could safely take all he wanted "until he heard ringing in his ears"!

If I've learned one thing about bad backs and back injuries, it is that they are pretty much all different. I stretch a bit more prior to riding hard or racing than I did before getting nailed. I stretch on the bike more, too. Sitting up...twisting...stretching the arms behind the back...rolling the shoulders. I've tried to maintain a strong gut and go into a 'running' climbing mode to change up positions.

Every cyclist with a weakness or injury will find a way to compensate for it.
 

jsirabella

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campy, They are many of us out there, just no one really wants anyone to know. +1 on every back pain is different. The back is a very tricky area. The doc told me, you can MRI 100 people off the street with no back pain and probably most will have worse backs than me. This is one of the reasons some docs do not like MRIs as they find problems that may not really need to be addressed and lead you on wild goose chases. For me it found my L4/L5 and a small L5/S1 and a small T5. After I had the discogram (something no one should live through) I found mostly L5/S1 was the issue. I was saved by PRP and finally finding the right PT guy.

Ring in ears? That is a new one. MEDS I do not care what the doc tells you, you take an excess of them and you will be screwed eventually.

In the end, we will find ways to deal with it but it will also change our lives on a long term basis. While very few will need surgery, most will have to change their life styles.

-js
 

DeadLights

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Apr 9, 2011
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Why can't we all just be 20 forever?

My back was even better yesterday, but my legs are still barking at me. How often should I be riding? I have been going ever day, but perhaps I need to let my legs have day or two off?

I know in weight training rest is required. In this type of exercise is it really needed to let your legs rest? Or can you beat the bike up as often as you want with no ill affect? I don't want to over train at the beginning and burn out.
 

jsirabella

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DL->Your kidding, right? Ride everyday cause it is not as tough as weight lifting?

I started from 0 and worked up as opposed to push as hard as I can and see if I can take it. With that agenda in mind

1) Take off atleast 2 days now or until not taking Advil like candy.

2) Start with a leisure 1 hour ride and see how you feel the next day. If fine do that again for 3 days in a row and than take off a day.

3) Add another hour or whatever you max is at same pace. If fine do that again for 3 days in a row and than take day off.

4) Increase the intensity, hopefully using watts as you gauge or speed if doing the same course by 10%(???, you decide)

repeat, repeat, repeat.

If you hit wall with pain than take off 2-3 days and take it down a notch on intensity.

-js
 

DeadLights

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Apr 9, 2011
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Yeah, makes sense. I just have a hard time not going balls to the wall at all times. I have literally pushed myself to puking while doing wind sprints. My wife says that I'm insane. She may be right!
 

jsirabella

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DL->There is a time to push yourself that hard (hopefully during a race or important event for you). First get the miles and time in before you start doing the high end stuff. Trust me if you have the time and can do 3-4 hours at L3/SST mix, you be surprised how close you will be to puking also.

My wife says the same thing and there is a bit of truth to it. Pushing yourself is great, pushing yourself to a point that you hurt yourself and do perm damage is stupid. Remember we do not get paid for this and you be surprised how fast things can fall apart if you can not work and do the things that keeps our lives going. I came pretty close to learning that lesson the hard way!

-js
 

BHSpeedrom7

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Mar 6, 2012
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Congrats on the weight lose :) To become a good hill Climber according to professional riders you need to have 2lbs of weight per inch of height, so for someone's height at 5ft 10" they should weigh 140lbs, This is not an easy goal for everyone, my advice to you is a lighter bike does help a lot, pure training on hills i.e going up mountains, I used to be in the 200lbs also the more weight you drop the easier hill climbs become, be the weight from your bike or yourself, Weight training I find is just an image and it does not really improve cycling as if you do a lot of it you will add weight which will compromise your performance on hills. The bigger and more hills you climb those hills you ride regularly will become miminal climbs. I hope this help, this is all from personal experience.
 

DeadLights

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Originally Posted by BHSpeedrom7 .

Congrats on the weight lose :) To become a good hill Climber according to professional riders you need to have 2lbs of weight per inch of height, so for someone's height at 5ft 10" they should weigh 140lbs, This is not an easy goal for everyone, my advice to you is a lighter bike does help a lot, pure training on hills i.e going up mountains, I used to be in the 200lbs also the more weight you drop the easier hill climbs become, be the weight from your bike or yourself, Weight training I find is just an image and it does not really improve cycling as if you do a lot of it you will add weight which will compromise your performance on hills. The bigger and more hills you climb those hills you ride regularly will become miminal climbs. I hope this help, this is all from personal experience.


140? No way. I don't think I could pull that off. I'm very broad shouldered and big boned. I can't wrap my fingers around my wrists. I was 160 in high school and looked like I walked out of a concentration camp.
 

jsirabella

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DL-> I know exactly what you mean. It is why I always say it is much easier to be in that 150-160 range and not need the watts than be in the > 170 and need to generate more watts to get the same watts/kg. It is a lean man game as you can tell very quickly with a few glances at a cycling magazine.

My wife told me that when I was at 160 I looked like I was going to die. My mom begged her to get me to eat more.

-js
 

BHSpeedrom7

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I know it's crazy weight to consider getting to, The only way you can get better at hills is to train on them, don't avoid hills in your journey's. If you have a big hill beside you practice going up and down the hill a few days a week and move on to other hills and do the same.
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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Originally Posted by BHSpeedrom7 .

I know it's crazy weight to consider getting to, The only way you can get better at hills is to train on them, don't avoid hills in your journey's. If you have a big hill beside you practice going up and down the hill a few days a week and move on to other hills and do the same.
I am certainly not disagreeing with you, but my response is to some of the audience of this thread it is not just going to mountains and hills that makes one better in the hills based on my understanding of training the different metabolic systems and/or building sustainable power output; it is about progressive training as well.

A few observations in my world.

My current group is split all apart with some training for mountain events and some like myself training with the flattest roads I can find, but either way it goes when I am down on the flats I do not rest or coast downhill. I am constantly pushing with attempt to improve critical power / functional threshold. Yet I have some friends and can testify to myself that in years past I did exclusive training in the mountains and could make it up some challenging gradients and could still keep my power output below 200 watts by using an easier gear. That is until I started learning that it is not just being at the mountains that makes one better. It is pushing onself to improve.

Last fall I joined up with a group of friends that focus their training on big climbs and not only was I able to hang with them, I dropped more than half of them and kept the front fast climbers in my view and I am a moose on the bike with body weight to my height. The reason I believe this happened is that I am down on the flats pushing myself and some of them on the mountains doing the same old level they always push. They believe that just because they are at the mountain that they are improving and I believe they are not pushing hard enough while being at the mountains. Sure they have pretty good fitness, but I am not seeing their improvement.

So for the Florida cyclists (and like terrain) just because you don't have mountains don't shy away or be timid about going to a mountain event. Plenty of Florida people that only have a bridge overpass as their steepest incline have come up and absolutely destroyed the hearts and egos of those who train exclusively on big climbs on the challenging Six Gap event in Georgia.

IMO - it is not so much where you train, rather how you train.

Functional threshold and watts/kg can be improved greatly in the mountains, on the flats and indoors in the right manner.
 

DeadLights

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Apr 9, 2011
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I like how this thread has turned into a cycling training for newbies thread. /img/vbsmilies/smilies/icon14.gif

I talked to some local cyclists in my area. I'm new to this area and didn't realize there is a large expanse of flat farmland literally 2 miles south of where I have been riding! So I have been riding it 12-20 miles a day every day this week, and it has been a welcome break from the hills that were killing me; however do note that I'm already having an easier time with them.

I'm already starting to wish the gadget on my bike were fancier. It tracks my MPH, estimated calories (that has to be far off the mark because it doesn't ask for weight or track heart rate), distance, time, and odometer. I would love to get one that tracks heart rate, cadence, and had GPS. I just don't have the funds to splurge on one currently.

However, on the flat areas I'm holding between 14-17mph. Would you consider this to be a slow pace? Moderate? I try to do it in high gears so I'm pumping fast, but I have no clue what my cadence is.

Back pain is almost gone now. It's awesome how fast our bodies can adjust to new torture. The only pain I'm contending with now is my old knee injury. It aches, but that's something I have lived and dealt with for years, so nothing new. Just grin and bear it.

I have worked my way up to doing about 80 miles a week. Trying to work my way up to 120 miles a week. I think I may be pushing myself a bit much to fast. 80 miles a week is wiping me out.
 

Felt_Rider

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Oct 24, 2004
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DL, take your time and evolve into this sport/activity. You are doing right by incrementally adding time (miles) to each week, but it works well to keep everything in balance and not try to ramp up too fast unless your genetics allow you to ramp quickly. You can improve your equipment over a period of years as well like the electronic gadgets, but if you have a simple wrist watch to time yourself up particular hills or on a chosen route that will do as a start.

For instance I have a power meter, but I also have some routes like an out and back that I see how far I can go in one hour. It is nothing more than racing the clock if environmental conditions (wind & traffic in this case) are similar. Nothing technical. Just push hard for an hour.

When I started improving was on this forum lurking and soaking up info from those guys giving out great training advice like the it's killing me thread that has helped a large number members here. Even if you don't own a powermeter you can still start applying the same principles. For a few years I used RPE (perceived effort) based on the chart to gauge my intensity and training time.


Best wishes
 

AdamSean

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Aug 11, 2011
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I am also in a similar predicament as yourself. I am 33, 195 lbs and like to lift weights. Unfortunately, weight lifting and cycling really don't go together, but there are a few things that can make it work. I am in the gym 4 days a week building muscle on a split routine. Its supposed to be 5, but I ignore the leg days as I get plenty of leg work on the bike.

I was in your shoes about a month ago with the hills. I am training for a century so my miles have been adding up each week. It should be noted that I am on the bike 5 days a week. The more you ride, the easier it will be to top those hills and keep pedaling down the other side. I have read most competative cyclists don't use weights during competition training. They use the off season for this.

I am thinking of doing this routine to build a stronger core and build up the legs to get my speed up.


THE FOUNDATION WORKOUT
Follow Lance Armstrong’s secret training plan to banish back pain and build total body power
Even if you’re not a cyclist, odds are that you spend the bulk of your day hunched in a seat. And that’s a recipe for back pain, says trainer Peter Park, who developed the following workout to help Lance Armstrong strengthen his “posterior chain”—a series of muscles that include the glutes, hamstrings, lower back, and others that stabilize the spine and provide speed and power in sports. Add it to your own weekly fitness plan to shore up your weak spots and build a strong foundation for any athletic endeavor.
WARM UP
Perform one set of each exercise without resting. For example, you’ll do the prescribed number of repetitions of the first exercise, then immediately do the second exercise, and so on. Once you’ve completed all of the exercises, move on to the core circuit.
1. Lateral Band Walk
2. Plank (Hold for 20 seconds 20 reps)
3. Iliotibial Band Roll (6 per side)
4. Groiner (6-8 per side)
5. Hand Crossover (3 reps)
6. Lunge (10 reps per side)
7. Lunge with Side Bend (5 reps)
8. Elbow-to-Foot Lunge (10 reps per side)
9. Sumo Squat to Stand (2 reps)
10. Kettlebell Goblet Squat (3 reps)
11. Doorway Stretch (1 rep)

CORE CIRCUIT
Perform one set of each exercise without resting. For example, you’ll do the prescribed number of repetitions of the first exercise, then immediately do the second exercise, and so on. Once you’ve completed all of the exercises, move on to Strength Circuit 1.

1. Side Planks (30 seconds per side)
2. Back Extensions (3 reps)
3. Swiss-Ball Roll (30 reps per side)
4. Swiss-Ball Pike (20 reps per side)
5. Mountain Climber with Feet on Valslides (30 reps)
6. Wrist-to-Knee Crunches (25 reps)
7. Plank (5-6 reps)

STRENGTH CIRCUIT 1

Perform one set of each exercise without resting. For example, you’ll do the prescribed number of repetitions of the first exercise, and immediately do the second exercise. Then rest one minute. That’s one circuit. Do a total of 3 circuits, then move on to Strength Circuit 2.
1. Pistol Squat (5 reps each leg)
2. Single-Leg Deadlift (8 reps per side)


STRENGTH CIRCUIT 2

Perform one set of each exercise without resting. For example, you’ll do the prescribed number of repetitions of the first exercise, and immediately do the second exercise. Then rest one minute. That’s one circuit. Do a total of 3 circuits, then move on to the Metabolic Circuit.

Single-Leg Squat (12-15 reps)
Lunge (10 reps per side)

METABOLIC CIRCUIT
If you’re exhausted, stop here. But if you still have energy, perform this final circuit up to three times, depending on how good you feel. Perform one set of each exercise without resting. For example, you’ll do the prescribed number of repetitions of the first exercise, then immediately do the second exercise, and so on. Once you’ve completed all of the exercises, congratulations—you’ve just trained like Lance Armstrong.
1. Single Arm Dumbbell Swing (25)
2. High Box Jump (15)
3. Single Arm Dumbbell Swing (25)
4. Split Jacks (12 each side)
5. Single Arm Dumbbell Swing (25)
 

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