"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
Quoted message said:
Thorsten Schier said:"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" schrieb:
Quoted message said:
Thorsten Schier wrote:
> As far as I know, there are no studies which really proof that
> carbohydrates cause obesity. But there are no studies either
which
Quoted message said:> proof
> otherwise.
>
Actually there are studies that prove that weight loss is
achievable
Quoted message said:with caloric reduction independent of the macronutrient
composition of
Quoted message said:the food being ingested.
Well, yes. Weight loss is also achievable with caloric restriction
independent of the weight of the food.
If the kinds of food is held invariant, caloric restriction is weight
restriction.
If, yes. But if you replace bread or butter with broccoli, you can
achieve a reduction in calories without a reduction in weight.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
The question is, to what extend patients can follow such a diet in
the
long run and how healthy that is.
Why would eating less be unhealthy if someone is eating excessive
amounts?
Restricting the amount of food when someone is eating all the wrong
things is surely better than overeating these things. However they might
be better of, if they just ate healthier food (of course we would have
to discuss what those healthier foods are).
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Or when it comes to the causes of obesity:
Overeating.
Quoted message said:What causes people to overeat
in the first place?
It is an innate tendency.
The how do you explain that most people are more or less normal weight
until some time in life when they begin to gain weight? Why are adults
more prone to obesity than children? Perhaps because adults have begun
to develop insulin resistance?
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:This is consistent with the observation that obesity in not
rampant in
Quoted message said:parts of world where the majority of the world's population is
eating
Quoted message said:proportionately higher amounts of carbs (ie Rice).
Rice is better than potatoes and white bread because it has a lower
glycemic index.
Actually, it has the same glycemic index.
According to this source, this isn't true, parboiled rice is listed with
68, white bread is listed with 100, boiled or mashed potatoes with 104
and french fries even with 107:
http://www.diabetes.ca/Section_About/glycemic.asp
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:And of course it is much better than sugar, because it contains no
fructose and fructose is known to cause insulin resistance.
Being overweight (plus inherent susceptibility) causes insulin
resistance.
Feeding rats a diet high in fructose makes them insulin resistant in a
matter of weeks. This is one of the standard methods to produce rats
with diabetes.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:As long as
your not insulin resistant, you can probably get away with consuming
considerable amounts of carbs.
Until you become obese causing insulin resistance if you are
predisposed to it.
People don't usually become obese, if they are not insulin resistant.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:>
> So scientists have to make up their mind on less solid evidence.
Quoted message said:
Most scientists already *know* that carbohydrates do not cause
obesity.
They *think* that they know.
They simply know.
Quoted message said:That is not necessarily the same.
Prisoners fed prison-fare of only bread and water do not become obese.
I assume prisoners are usually fed less than two pounds of bread per day
....
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:> You
> believe that carbohydrates are innocent, other people believe
> otherwise.
>
Go ahead and cite a reference where a credentialed scientist
states
Quoted message said:the latter.
"Carbohydrates with high glycemic indexes and high glycemic loads
produce substantial increases in blood glucose and insulin levels
after
ingestion. Within a few hours after their consumption, blood sugar
levels begin to decline rapidly due to an exaggerated increase in
insulin secretion. A profound state of hunger is created. The
continued
intake of high-glycemic load meals is associated with an increased
risk
of chronic diseases such as obesity, cardiovascular disease, and
diabetes. "
Low-glycemic-load diets: impact on obesity and chronic diseases.
Bell SJ, Sears B.
Ok, you cite a scientist(s) stating that high-glycemic load meals may
increase risk for obesity.
Now cite one that says carbohydrates *causes* obesity.
Two points to be made here:
(1) Cause is not synonymous with risk.
(2) Carbohydrates is not synonymous with high-glycemic load meals.
Most carbohydrates in our nutrition come in form of high-glycemic load
meals.
Of course there is nothing wrong with the carbohydrates in, say,
broccoli. I never claimed that all carbohydrates were equally dangerous.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Sears Labs, 222 Rosewood Drive, Suite 500, Danvers, Massachusetts
01923,
USA. [email hidden]
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=12940416&dopt=Abstract)
Quoted message said:>
> > >
> > > > > However
> > > > > that may be, cutting out most carbs will cause a vast
> majority
> > > of obese
> > > > > people to lose weight.
> > > >
> > > > Cutting out anything will cause weight loss.
> > >
> > > But if you are insulinresistent, and a vast majority of
obese
Quoted message said:> > > persons
> > > are, cutting out fat and protein leaves you hungry most of
the
Quoted message said:> time
> >
> > Cutting out anything is going to cause some hunger.
> Hyperketonemia to
> > suppress hunger is not a good thing.
>
> I don't think so.
>
Are you a physician?
No.
Then you don't really understand what hyperketonemia is, now do you?
I wonder if you do.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:However, I have a university diploma in biology and so I think I am
able to read and understand medical articles and abstracts.
Then by all means read about hyperketonemia.
Would suggest the same to you.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
So far, no one has been able to show me evidence that ketosis
induced by
a low-carb diet might be harmful.
See my earlier posts on the topic of hyperketonemia.
Those were hardly convincing. See the replys to these posts by Matti
Narkia.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:>
> > >
> > > because it
> > > produces reactive hypoglycaemias.
> >
> > Hypoglycemia in insulin-resistant individuals come largely
from
Quoted message said:> > overconsumption of simple sugars and not from cutting out
either
Quoted message said:> fat
> > or protein.
>
> You are aware of the fact that for example most kinds of bread
raise
Quoted message said:> the
> blood sugar as much and as quickly as does sucrose, if not more
so?
Quoted message said:>
Not a fact to be aware of.
Anyone who has taken a biochemistry course can explain this to
you.
Then go ahead.
The gut can not directly absorb long polymers of glucose. It can
directly absorb many mono and disaccharides.
Can you give source that provides evidence that sucrose is directly
absorbed in larger quantities?
However that may be, you will be aware of the fact that sucrose is
composed of glucose and fructose and that fructose does not raise the
blood sugar nearly as much or as quickly as does glucose. Since starch
only contains glucose, the time to break it down is more than
compensated by the fact, that it contains twice the amount of glucose
than does sucrose.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:>
>
> > > Besides you have a high level of
> > > insulin in your blood which tends to prevent wheight loss.
> > >
> >
> > Insulin resistance leading to need for elevated levels of
insulin
Quoted message said:>
> > happen *after* weight gain and not before.
>
> Your opinion.
My clinical experience plus what is currently known about
Metabolic
Quoted message said:Syndrome (MetS). I have never seen a thin type 2 diabetic.
Nor have I ever seen a thin person with MetS.
Well, Eades and Eades (Protein Power) have.
Are they physicians?
Yes, they are. And you don't have to take my word for it. Please fell
free to contact them at their office: 11205 Anderson Road, Suite 130,
Little Rock, AR 72212. Michael R Eades, M. D. and Mary Dan Eades, M. D.
(They give this information in their book).
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:> It remains to be seen wether it is based on facts. Surely
> you can point to a study back up your thesis?
>
Simply google "Metabolic Syndrome" and "Syndrome X" for literally
hundreds of references.
Should be easy for you then to cite just one study that supports
your
position.
I have in the past. Use Google.
So you can't. Thougth so.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:>
> For another opinion:
>
> "It is concluded that hyperinsulinemia is a pathological driving
Quoted message said:> force
> in producing both incipient obesity by overstimulating white
adipose
Quoted message said:>
> tissue and liver metabolic activity, and concomitantly producing
Quoted message said:> incipient muscle insulin resistance."
>
> Hyperinsulinemia and its Impact on Obesity and Insulin
Resistance
Quoted message said:> Reference:
> Cusin, I., Rohner-Jeanrenaud, F., Terrettaz, J., et al.,
> "Hyperinsulinemia and its Impact on Obesity and Insulin
Resistance,"
Quoted message said:>
> International Journal of Obesity and Related Metabolic
Disorders,
Quoted message said:> 16(Suppl 4), 1992, pages S1-S11.
>
> (http://atkins.com/Archive/2002/1/11-61705.html)
>
Interesting article where the investigators implanted insulin
pumps in
Quoted message said:otherwise healthy rates and overfed these animals to prevent
hypoglycemia. These animals became overweight (because they were
overfed).
Imho, the authors are erroneous in their conclusion because they
could
Quoted message said:not control for weight gain.
According to the abstract the elevated insulin caused the larger
food
intake.
This is where your limited knowledge of physiology and biochemistry
fails you.
Limited though my knowledge of phyiology and biochemistry doubtless is,
I begin to suspect that it might be greater than yours.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:They don't say anything about offering them more food than the
control group or about force-feeding the rats. And they say that the
rats _got_ hypoglycemia. So this does not sound as if they overfed
them
in order to prevent this.
Rat die from hypoglycemia. That the rats survived to be studied
proves they were fed more.
"Hyperinsulinemia produced by prior insulin treatment (i.e. prior
insulinization of the normal rats) resulted in a well tolerated
hypoglycemia, increased food intake and body weight gain."
So unless you want to suggest that the authors are lying, your statement
that rats die from hypoglycemia must be erroneous.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:>
> > >
> > > > Problem is that research
> > > > studies indicate that such "dieting" has dismal long-term
> success
> > > rates..
> > >
> > > Could you point to such a study?
> >
> > http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/289/14/1792?etoc
Quoted message said:>
> What has this to do with low-carb diets?
It has to do with dieting in general. Reread the discussion.
Well, small wonder they failed, if they used a low-fat diet. This
proves
nothing about the efficacy of low-carb dieting.
They don't specify LC or otherwise.
So it might well have worked, if they had used a low-carb approach.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:It is my understanding that physicians frequently prescribe
diuretics in
order to lower blood pressure.
Not to everybody.
But to those who suffer from water retension, I believe.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:And now you claim diuresis to be a bad
thing.
For folks who don't need it. Yes.
Quoted message said:That there might be medical conditions that make diuresis
dangerous is another question.
We don't put diuretics in drinking water now do we?
Where I live, they don't even put vitamin C into the water. That's not
to say that vitamin C is unhealthy.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Most of us don't have failing kidneys,
however.
Majority rules, eh?
I believe in Democracy :-)
Ok, so for _some_ people, severe restriction of carbohydrates might pose
them at some risks. They might want to consider a less strict version of
the
diet. You don't have to be in ketosis when low-carbing.
The low-carb proponents advise their readers to begin the diet under a
physicians care anyway, so failing kidneys should be easily detected.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:>
> > > Hyperinsulinemia (elevated levels of insulin in the blood)
> causes
> > > fluid retension and thus high bloodpressure (there are other
Quoted message said:> ways
> > > insulin promotes high bloodpressure, but this is probably
most
Quoted message said:> > > important).
> >
> > If that were true, then medications lowering insulin levels
(by
Quoted message said:> > increasing insulin sensitivity) would be known for blood
pressure
Quoted message said:> > lowering properties. They aren't.
>
> Oh, they are, even if you may not be aware of it:
>
Haven't seen it.
Perhaps because if you prescribe such medications your primary
objective
is to achieve blood sugar control, not to reduce insulin levels. So
in
many cases the insulin levels will remain more or less the same,
only
that now they make a better job of reducing blood sugar.
We were talking about blood pressure effects, weren't we?
It is my point that you might be able to achieve better blood sugar
control with a insulin sesitiving agent without significantly reducing
the insulin level. So you won't see any significant change in blood
pressure. Besides that, no medication is as powerful as a low carb diet,
when it comes to reducing insulin resistance.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
>
> "In conclusion, metformin treatment increased insulin action,
> lowered
> blood pressure, improved the metabolic risk factor profile and
> tended to
> increase the fibrinolytic activity in these mildly hypertensive
> subjects. These results support the view that insulin resistance
Quoted message said:> plays a
> role in hypertension, and may open up a new field for the
> alleviation of
> abnormalities associated with cardiovascular disease."
>
> J Intern Med. 1991 Feb;229(2):181-7.
>
> Treating insulin resistance in hypertension with metformin
reduces
Quoted message said:> both
> blood pressure and metabolic risk factors.
>
> Landin K, Tengborn L, Smith U.
>
>
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1900072&dopt=Abstract)
Quoted message said:>
> "There was a significant decrease in blood lipids (trygliceride
and
Quoted message said:> cholesterol), an increase in HDL-cholesterol and a reduction in
> blood
> pressure in diabetics taking metformin"
>
> Eur J Clin Pharmacol. 1993;44(2):107-12.
>
> Metformin for obese, insulin-treated diabetic patients:
improvement
Quoted message said:> in
> glycaemic control and reduction of metabolic risk factors.
>
> Giugliano D, Quatraro A, Consoli G, Minei A, Ceriello A, De Rosa
N,
Quoted message said:> D'Onofrio F.
>
>
(http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8453955&dopt=Abstract)
Quoted message said:>
>
Metformin does not directly decrease insulin resistance.
The authors of at least the first of the above articles seem to
believe
otherwise: "Treating insulin resistance in hypertension with
metformin
..."
This is where your limited knowledge of biochemistry and pharmacology
fails you.
Er, this is a direct quote from the articles title ... So you should
question the authors knowledge in these fields, not mine.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:However that may be, perhaps you could just say what medications you
had
in mind. Please give a concrete example.
Read the above again.
I think it's your turn to reread the discussion.
First you state:
Quoted message said:If that were true, then medications lowering insulin levels (by
increasing insulin sensitivity) would be known for blood pressure
lowering properties. They aren't.
Then I give metformin a an example of a medication that increases
insulin sensitivity and cite evidence that it _is_ known for blood
pressure lowering properties.
Then you deny that metformin increases insulin sensitivity.
So I ask you again:
Please name an example for a medication that increases insulin
sensitivity, so we can examine, whether it is known to lower blood
pressure.
I there aren't any, than your statement about their properties does not
make any sense at all.
If there are, please name one.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:It blocks
the metabolism of disaccarides (simple sugars like sucrose).
Could you please elaborate on this and give a source? I didn't found
anything like this in what I read about metformin. According to the
articles I read, metformin reduces insulin resistance and suppresses
hepatic glucose production (mainly that from gluconeogenesis).
Check the PDR.
So you can't. Thought so.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Besides, it is my understanding that disaccarides are digested into
their parts (for example glucose and fructose) before entering the
blood
stream. So I'm a bit confused how metformin should influence their
metabolism.
This is where your limited knowledge of biochemistry and pharmacology
fails you.
So you are unable to explain how this should work.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:This
does effect weight loss which probably accounts for much of the
effect
Quoted message said:on blood pressure.
In the first study, the body weight remained unchangend. And yet
there
was a reduction in blood pressure.
They did not control for body weight.
_The body weight remained unchanged_. Which part of this do you not
understand? So even if they didn't adjust for the non-existing
weightloss, which is not clear from the abstract, it shouldn't make any
difference.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:>
> > > As lowcarb diets reduce the amount of insulin in the blood,
> > > the bloodpressure goes down.
> >
> > With LC diets blood pressure does down with weightloss +/-
> diuresis
> > and vasodilatory effects of hyperketonemia.
>
> So ketosis does not seem to be that bad after all.
>
Try drinking some acetone and get back with us on that.
Next time you are going to tell us that potassium is poisonous
because
people die when they get a large amount of it injected.
The person who printed the skull and crossbones on the bottle of
acetone is trying to tell you the same thing.
Acetone is only a minor part of the ketones in the blood while
lowcarbing and even all ketones put together have only a tiny
concentration in the blood. Surely you realize that pure actone is much
more concentrated ...
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Quoted message said:>
> > > This works even in people who are not
> > > overweight to begin with.
> > >
> >
> > See above.
> >
> > >
> > > > > and lower triglcerides.
> > > >
> > > > This also happens largely from losing weight.
> > >
> > > Again, no. If you honestly believe this, I urge you to
inform
Quoted message said:> > > yourself
> > > about this, to the benefit of your patients.
> > >
> > > To get you started:
> > >
> > > "Triglycerides. The most dramatic and
> > > consistent lipid response to a very-low-carbo-hydrate
> > > diet is a moderate to large decrease in
> > > fasting triglyceride levels and postprandial
> > > triglyceride responses to a fat-rich meal,14
> > > both independent risk factors for cardiovascu-lar
disease.15,16
Quoted message said:> > >
> >
> > Actually triglycerides have been shown to be a CAD risk factor
Quoted message said:> > primarily in those with metabolic syndrome and not in other
> folks..
>
> Now, first you denied that low-carb diets reduce triglcerides
> independently of weightloss
Still do.
> and when you were shown otherwise
Where?
Below.
Don't see it.
This is where your limited ability to read fails you.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:> you seem
> to deny the relevance of elevated triglycerides.
>
Perhaps you should read what I wrote again.
You make it sound as if elevated triglycerides were not a health
concern
for most people.
It depends on the person.
Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:>
> With limited success, though, because the majority of overweight
Quoted message said:> persons
> and almost all obese persons _have_ metabolic syndrome, so it is
Quoted message said:> relevant for them. And a most dieters will be overweight or even
Quoted message said:> obese.
>
> > > [...]
> > > Paradoxically, a low-fat/high-carbohy-drate
> > > diet exacerbates atherogenic dyslipi-demia
> > > if the patient does not lose a significant
> > > amount of weight or increase his or her level
> > > of physical activity.26,27
> >
> > Therefore, when there is weight loss, triglycerides will be
> lowered
> > independent of whether the diet is LC or HC.
> >
> > > However, a very-low-carbohydrate
> > > diet improves all aspects of
> > > atherogenic dyslipidemia, decreasing fasting
> > > and postprandial triglyceride levels, increasing
> > > HDL, increasing LDL size, and decreasing
> > > insulin, independent of weight loss.14,23"
> > >
> >
> > Ime, this effect has not been independent of weight loss.
Without
Quoted message said:>
> > weight loss, LC dieters rarely improve their lipid profile.
>
> The authors of the article I cited seem to think otherwise
Where?
I repeat:
"However, a very-low-carbohydrate
diet improves all aspects of
atherogenic dyslipidemia, decreasing fasting
and postprandial triglyceride levels, increasing
HDL, increasing LDL size, and decreasing
insulin, _independent of weight loss_.14,23"
(Emphasis added)
I've review the data and don't agree with the authors' conclusions.
Could you give a reason for this?
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:> and what's
> more, they cite studies to back up their view. I also cited some
Quoted message said:> studies
> to support this. Can you do the same for your view?
Yes. However, you'll need to prove your point first.
At least I presented evidence to support my view. You seem strangely
reluctant to do the same for yours.
Have done it in the past. You are welcome to Google it.
So you can't present evidence. Thought so.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:>
>
Quoted message said:>
> > > "These results indicate that the effects of lowfat diets on
> > > lipoprotein
> > > metabolism are not limited to higher fasting plasma
triglyceride
Quoted message said:> and
> > >
> > > lower HDL cholesterol concentrations, but also include a
> persistent
> > > elevation in RLPs. Given the atherogenic potential of these
> changes
> > > in
> > > lipoprotein metabolism, it seems appropriate to question the
Quoted message said:> wisdom
> > > of
> > > recommending that all Americans should replace dietary
saturated
Quoted message said:> fat
> > >
> > > with CHO."
> > >
> >
> > The wiser recommendation is for folks to eat less across the
> board.
> >
>
> Except for food high in carbs of course.
>
No exceptions.
Not even for foods rich in transfats or sugar?
For obesity, the bottomline is the quantity of food ingested. No
exceptions.
Neither transfats nor sugar cause obesity.
Sugar contains fructose and it is a well known fact that fructose causes
insulin resistance in rats and probably in humans also.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Than it is strange that you didn't notice that what happened to
those
prisoners was so different from your experience. Or if you noticed,
that
you didn't tell us. If I had my own diet to promote, I would hate
people
to get a wrong idea about it.
That's a good reason for the following:
http://www.heartmdphd.com/wtloss.asp
You didn't post this link to correct Mu.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
Quoted message said:>
> > >
> > > (<[email hidden]>😉
> > >
> > > > > If
> > > > > you are interested in how this works, I'd recommend the
book
Quoted message said:>
> > > "Protein
> > > > > Power" by Michael and Mary Eades to you.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I prefer peer-reviewed journal article to books like
"Protein
Quoted message said:> > > Power."
> > > >
> > > > The latter sounds too much like "White Power."
> > >
> > > Do you really think you can discredit the work of the Eades'
Quoted message said:> with
> > > this,
> > > er, association of yours?
> > >
> >
> > The title's already done it for me. Sorry.
>
> I notice that you take every possible excuse to close both eyes
when
Quoted message said:> it
> comes to the merits of low-carb diets.
>
Pray tell why are you a big proponent of low-carb diets when there
is
Quoted message said:obviously minimal data to support it despite its 30 year history?
I think this is a bit of a blind spot for you. For some reason you
seem
to choose to ignore all evidence in favor of low-carb diets, of
which
there is plenty. Some of it was presented to you in this thread.
Than this is a matter of personal experience. I lost about 25 kg (in
somewhat more than half a year) on a low-carb diet. When I started
to go
off the diet, at least partly (mostly by eating too much chocolate)
I
regained 5 kg. Now that I'm back on the diet I already have lost
again 4
of the 5 regained kg. My blood pressure has fallen considerably, as
well
as my triglycerides. Cholesterol has remained the same.
Not surprising.
Quoted message said:I'm less tired
than I used to be. And this diet is a way you can lose weight and
yet
don't have to be hungry all the time.
Noone has ever died from hunger.
Hunger is a sign that something is not as it should be.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:
I also read in alt.support.diet.low-carb, so I know that I'm not the
only one who has lost weight and impoved health on this diet. It is
particulary interesting how many diabetics have managed to control
their
blood sugar with low-carb diets.
Diabetic folks using the 2PD approach also manage to control their
blood sugar. So?
I assume we have to take your word for this.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:You will note that the corresponding
low-fat group has almost no traffic.
Sounds like they don't need as much support.
Don't think so.
Quoted message said:Quoted message said:Don't seem to be many successful
dieters there.
Could mean exactly the opposite.
Hardly.
Quoted message said:--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/
Thorsten (Dipl.-Biol.)
--
"Nothing in biology makes sense, except in the light of evolution"
(Theodosius Dobzhansky)
