Wheel Building

Bill Wheeler said:

Mountain biking content Non-Roadies can stop here: I've only actually built 1 MTB wheel in my
short wheel building career. Turned out fine.

Now's time for (what I call anyway) the big time.

Campagnolo Record front and rear hubs. I just can't bring myself to say "Campy"

Mavic Open Pro Sup 700c hoops. I was going to go with the CXP33's but changed my mind for a better
all around rim that will only see time on race days

DT swiss double butted spokes, 3 cross lacing.

Hubs arrived today, expect rims by end of week, LBS will order the spokes, first race May 2004.

I can't wait to compare my numbers from Spocalc2002 to what my LBS comes up with. From a logical
stand point they should be an exact match.

Post this to wreck tech and/or racing and you'll get a jillion replies.

Bill "niiiiiiiiccccccccceeeee" S.

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 21:41:32 -0500

Bill Wheeler said:

Mountain biking content Non-Roadies can stop here: I've only actually built 1 MTB wheel in my
short wheel building career. Turned out fine.

Now's time for (what I call anyway) the big time.

Campagnolo Record front and rear hubs. I just can't bring myself to say "Campy"

Mavic Open Pro Sup 700c hoops. I was going to go with the CXP33's but changed my mind for a better
all around rim that will only see time on race days

DT swiss double butted spokes, 3 cross lacing.

Double-butted, feh. They cause me more problems when building than they are worth.

--
J'm Sm'th [straight gauge kinda guy]

To Reply Direct, Remove Clothes
..._._

J'm Sm'th said:

Double-butted, feh. They cause me more problems when building than they are worth.

On a road wheel they are much more durable in my experience. DB spokes maintain tension better than
straight spokes at the bottom of the wheel, when under load. Straight gauge spokes seem to snap off
at the hub hole more often.

Since the road wheel has the triple whammy of much less air volume, at a much higher pressure, and
longer spokes, over a mountain wheel, the DBs can be worth the extra effort.

Barry

Bill Wheeler said:

Mountain biking content Non-Roadies can stop here: I've only actually built 1 MTB wheel in my
short wheel building career. Turned out fine.

Now's time for (what I call anyway) the big time.

Campagnolo Record front and rear hubs. I just can't bring myself to say "Campy"

Mavic Open Pro Sup 700c hoops. I was going to go with the CXP33's but changed my mind for a better
all around rim that will only see time on race days

DT swiss double butted spokes, 3 cross lacing.

Hubs arrived today, expect rims by end of week, LBS will order the spokes, first race May 2004.

I can't wait to compare my numbers from Spocalc2002 to what my LBS comes up with. From a logical
stand point they should be an exact match.

Peace, Bill

...one speed to rule them all, one speed to find them, one speed to bring them all and on the
trails pass them In the Land of Avalon where the geared pigs lie...

Track bike?

Double butted spokes are good. My understanding (based on some ancient wheel building book FWIW) is
that the skinny center section of the spoke elastically stretches a bit more than a straight gauge
spoke. When the wheel turns, loading and unloading spokes, the tension is more consistent. Maybe its
all hooey, but I've made lots of good db spoked wheels. Alloy (Ti?) nipples? (Phrase carefully...) I
built some MTB wheels with alloy nipples for my wife. The wheels were light and strong w/no problems
over many years. Do people still road race on sewups? Last I heard they were still
better/lighter/stronger than clinchers. Jes curious.

Cheers, Shawn

"Sorni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Bill Wheeler said:

Mountain biking content Non-Roadies can stop here: I've only actually built 1 MTB wheel in my
short wheel building career. Turned out fine.

Now's time for (what I call anyway) the big time.

Campagnolo Record front and rear hubs. I just can't bring myself to say "Campy"

Mavic Open Pro Sup 700c hoops. I was going to go with the CXP33's but changed my mind for a
better all around rim that will only see time on race days

DT swiss double butted spokes, 3 cross lacing.

Hubs arrived today, expect rims by end of week, LBS will order the spokes, first race May 2004.

I can't wait to compare my numbers from Spocalc2002 to what my LBS comes up with. From a logical
stand point they should be an exact match.

Post this to wreck tech and/or racing and you'll get a jillion replies.

Bill "niiiiiiiiccccccccceeeee" S.

Awww, [censored]. Wheeler brings his SS jihad and now is going GRS? And the hits just keep on coming...
--
Jonesy

J'm Sm'th <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Double-butted, feh. They cause me more problems when building than they are worth.

Besides, straight-gauge is stronger.

[runs and ducks - thermonuclear war ain't for the faint-of-heart]
--
Jonesy

Jonesy said:

J'm Sm'th <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Double-butted, feh. They cause me more problems when building than they are worth.

Besides, straight-gauge is stronger.

[runs and ducks - thermonuclear war ain't for the faint-of-heart]
--
Jonesy

Probably are. But spokes usually break where they bend through the hub, so I figure why not save
some rotating weight. There that wasn't so bad. Couldn't even toast bread on it. :-)

Shawn

"Jonesy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

J'm Sm'th <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Double-butted, feh. They cause me more problems when building than they are worth.

Besides, straight-gauge is stronger.

[runs and ducks - thermonuclear war ain't for the faint-of-heart]

It is all perfectly strightforward - but not straight gauged! The various properties of spokes can
be found at: sheldonbrown.comwheelbuild.htmlOpen ↗

Jonesy said:

Awww, [censored]. Wheeler brings his SS jihad and now is going GRS? And the hits just keep on coming...

I think he/she always was, but the intense guilt has finally forced it to the surface :~(
--
Slacker - never!

Shawn Curry said:

Jonesy said:

J'm Sm'th <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Double-butted, feh. They cause me more problems when building than they are worth.

Besides, straight-gauge is stronger.

[runs and ducks - thermonuclear war ain't for the faint-of-heart]
--
Jonesy

Probably are. But spokes usually break where they bend through the hub, so I figure why not save
some rotating weight. There that wasn't so bad. Couldn't even toast bread on it. :-)

Shawn

You know, I've read/heard this too, but the only (2) spoke failures I've seen have been in the
middle. ??
--
Slacker

Bill Wheeler said:

Campagnolo Record front and rear hubs. I just can't bring myself to say "Campy"

I've got the campy record 10 hubs.... 24 radial spokes in front, 12 radial on the rear non-drive
side and 12 with 2 or 3 cross ( can't remember which) for a total of 24 spokes in the rear.. ..
spokes are bladed... nucleon wheel set.

charlie

Slacker said:

Shawn Curry said:

Jonesy said:

J'm Sm'th <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

>Double-butted, feh. They cause me more problems when building than they are worth.

Besides, straight-gauge is stronger.

[runs and ducks - thermonuclear war ain't for the faint-of-heart]
--
Jonesy

Probably are. But spokes usually break where they bend through the hub, so I figure why not save
some rotating weight. There that wasn't so bad. Couldn't even toast bread on it. :-)

Shawn

You know, I've read/heard this too, but the only (2) spoke failures I've seen have been in the
middle. ??
--
Slacker

I was gonna write "spokes always break..." guess I edited wisely. Were they damaged by rocks or a
wreck or do you think they fatigued? Most of the broken spokes I've had/fixed have been right side
of the rear wheel at the hub. Anyone seen left side (disk side) of a front wheel with a disk brake?
Could happen I suppose.

Shawn

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You know, I've read/heard this too, but the only (2) spoke failures I've seen have been in the
middle. ??
--
Slacker

I was gonna write "spokes always break..." guess I edited wisely. Were they damaged by rocks or a
wreck or do you think they fatigued?

Good point there... I'm don't know, but it certainly is a good possibility.

Quoted message said:

Most of the broken spokes I've had/fixed have been right side of the rear wheel at the hub. Anyone
seen left side (disk side) of a front wheel with a disk brake? Could happen I suppose.

Shawn

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 11:14:45 -0800, "Slacker" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

You know, I've read/heard this too, but the only (2) spoke failures I've seen have been in the
middle. ??

Whad'ya hit? <G>

Breaks in the middle are caused by other damage, not the metal simply failing. Common spoke killers
are jammed chains (duh! <G>😉, rocks, big sticks through the spokes, etc...

If the spoke failed due to tension, with no external damage, it would have stretched and lost
tension first, preventing a break. They need to be knicked before they'll fail in the middle.

You've only seen TWO spoke failures? <G>

Barry

Slacker said:

Shawn Curry said:

Jonesy said:

J'm Sm'th <[email hidden]> wrote:

> Double-butted, feh. They cause me more problems when building than they are worth.

Besides, straight-gauge is stronger.

[runs and ducks - thermonuclear war ain't for the faint-of-heart]
--
Jonesy

Probably are. But spokes usually break where they bend through the hub, so I figure why not save
some rotating weight. There that wasn't so bad. Couldn't even toast bread on it. :-)

Shawn

You know, I've read/heard this too, but the only (2) spoke failures I've seen have been in the
middle. ??

That is odd. I've seen lots more than two. I bet I've had over a dozen spoke breakages on my own
wheels in the last 15 years of offroad riding. Every single one was at the spoke elbow. I've even
had a spoke that was bent mid-shaft by a rock impact, but then eventually broke at the elbow.

I believe what Sheldon Brown's site points out about double- butted spokes. They may not be as
strong *individually* as straight guage spokes, but when built into a wheel you get something that
is more resilient and robust than the same hub and rim mated with straight-guage spokes.

When the wheel takes a big hit something has to give. I'd rather have it be a series of stretching
spoke shafts than a rim cracking at the eyelet (which I've had happen) or a spoke or two shearing
at the bend.

I don't build wheels though. So I can't comment on how much more difficult they make that task. I
have access to a *damn* fine wheelbuilder who doesn't mind working with butted spokes. And the
outcome has always been quite satisfying to me.

The real sweet spot IMO is high spoke count and aggressively butted spokes. Built with care by a
pro. You can keep yer fancy radial-laced 24-spoke break-it-and-send-it-back-to-france wheels.
--
Tom "never saw a 36-spoke wheel I didn't like" Purvis
Salida, CO

B a r r y B u r k e J r . said:

Slacker said:

You know, I've read/heard this too, but the only (2) spoke failures I've seen have been in the
middle. ??

Whad'ya hit? <G>

In one case, absolutely nothing; it just snapped whilst JRA.

Quoted message said:

Breaks in the middle are caused by other damage, not the metal simply failing. Common spoke
killers are jammed chains (duh! <G>😉, rocks, big sticks through the spokes, etc...

If the spoke failed due to tension, with no external damage, it would have stretched and lost
tension first, preventing a break. They need to be knicked before they'll fail in the middle.

You've only seen TWO spoke failures? <G>

Yes, in person. I've heard of other failures, but didn't want to include them since I wasn't there
and didn't have all the details.

Quoted message said:

Barry

On 30 Dec 2003 16:43:04 -0800
[email hidden] (Tom Purvis) wrote:

<snippity>

Quoted message said:

The real sweet spot IMO is high spoke count and aggressively butted spokes. Built with care by a
pro. You can keep yer fancy radial-laced 24-spoke break-it-and-send-it-back-to-france wheels.
--
Tom "never saw a 36-spoke wheel I didn't like" Purvis Salida, CO

I'm with you on the spoke count.

--
J'm Sm'th [by the numbers]

To Reply Direct, Remove Clothes
..._._

In article <[email hidden]>, slacker7 @sbcglobal.net says...

Quoted message said:

Shawn Curry said:

Jonesy said:

J'm Sm'th <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

> Double-butted, feh. They cause me more problems when building than they are worth.

Besides, straight-gauge is stronger.

[runs and ducks - thermonuclear war ain't for the faint-of-heart]
--
Jonesy

Probably are. But spokes usually break where they bend through the hub, so I figure why not save
some rotating weight. There that wasn't so bad. Couldn't even toast bread on it. :-)

Shawn

You know, I've read/heard this too, but the only (2) spoke failures I've seen have been in the
middle. ??
--
Slacker

Spokes fail at the ends due to fatigue, spokes usually only fatigue if they are of poor quality or
the wheel was improperly built/maintained. Most other failures are due to objects/people/pets
getting caught in the spokes which would probably account for the type of failures you've seen.
Double butted spokes are stronger than straight guage and they are not necessarily lighter than
their straight guage counterparts because they contain the same amount of matierial for a given
spoke size.
--
_________________________
Chris Phillipo - Cape Breton, Nova Scotia ramsays-online.comramsays-online.comOpen ↗

"Chris Phillipo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

. Double butted spokes are stronger than straight guage and they are not necessarily lighter than
their straight guage counterparts because they contain the same amount of matierial for a given
spoke size.

The DT Swiss and Wheelsmith websites both indicate you're quite wrong about DB spokes not being
lighter than straight gage ones..