When cyclists squat...

ed073 said:

Forcing your colon out your [censored]?? WTF??

Read this ...

nsca-lift.orgforum posts.aspOpen ↗

Dont tell me you never saw that picture of powerliftings mass rupture... OUCH!

KNEE INJURIES

Knee pain secondary to weight lifting is often caused by an overuse injury involving the patellofemoral joint, or the quadriceps or patellar tendons. However, tears to the menisci may also occur. Patellofemoral pain syndrome may or may not include chondromalacia. Ligamentous problems are rare except when caused by trauma during Olympic weight lifting.

One study(65) found that former elite weight lifters had a 31% incidence of osteoarthritis of the knee as compared with former runners who had only a 14% increased incidence of osteoarthritis of the knee. The patellofemoral joint was the most common location. One should keep in mind that Olympic lifts require ballistically dropping into a very deep squat, to the point where the hamstrings rest against the calves. Such extreme squatting positions result in very high meniscal compressive forces and patellofemoral contact forces. Also, competitive lifters often lift maximal weights. Elastic knee wraps are frequently worn while performing squats and other heavy leg exercises with the intention of protecting the knee joint. Such wraps may increase the friction between the patella and the underlying cartilage, thus increasing the risk of knee injury.(9,40)

Some general rules of thumb for athletes with patellofemoral pain are:

• Do not perform squats through a painful range of motion(often in the midrange).
  
• Do not perform lunges or squats with the knees caving inward (keep the knees over the toes).
  
• Focus on the last 10' to 15' of knee extension when performing knee extension exercises.
  
• Take care not to press the kneecaps into the bench when performing leg curls (or any prone position of exercise). In other words, move toward the foot of the bench so that the patellae are not compressed while the knees are extended.
  

If the weight lifter has had damage to the anterior cruciate ligament it is important to:

• Avoid knee extension exercises (especially from 70' of flexion to full extension).
  
• Substitute seated knee extensions with closed chain exercises such as partial squats and leg presses.
  
• Focus on hamstring development (adds some dynamic support).
  

This author has seen the greatest number of knee injuries occur as the result of hack squats. However, regular squats, leg presses, knee extensions, lunges, step-ups, and leg curls may all play a role in overuse injuries. In particular, bouncing at the bottom of a squat has been implicated as a cause of patellar tendon strain due to the high eccentric forces generated during this technique.(9) One case report even documents a bilateral quadriceps tendon rupture that occurred while squatting.(23)

CONCLUSION

Weight training is a wonderful form of exercise when practiced sensibly and in moderation. Helping athletes and other patients to continue performing their strength training exercises by modifying their programs in an attempt to prevent injuries is a great benefit. We should consider the advice given by Hippocrates 2,400 years ago: "Exercise should be mild at first, gradually increasing, gently warming and not taking too much from the available strength . . . exercise should be as far as possible natural and there should be plenty of them; violent exercise should be sparingly used, and only when necessary."

That's an urban legend

http://www.snopes.com/photos/prolapse.asp

Good post though....good common sense.

closesupport said:

One study(65) found that former elite weight lifters had a 31% incidence of osteoarthritis of the knee as compared with former runners who had only a 14% increased incidence of osteoarthritis of the knee. The patellofemoral joint was the most common location. One should keep in mind that Olympic lifts require ballistically dropping into a very deep squat, to the point where the hamstrings rest against the calves. Such extreme squatting positions result in very high meniscal compressive forces and patellofemoral contact forces. Also, competitive lifters often lift maximal weights. Elastic knee wraps are frequently worn while performing squats and other heavy leg exercises with the intention of protecting the knee joint. Such wraps may increase the friction between the patella and the underlying cartilage, thus increasing the risk of knee injury.(9,40)

This is a stupid logic that ONLY applies to full squats when they are done improperly. Ofcourse if you don't use proper retardation during the eccentric phase of a full squat and allow the hamstings to crash or sit on the calves it can cause knee injury.

Though we can apply this same stupid logic to any weightlifting exercise and make that exercise look bad and like it causes injury.

For example benchpress:

"When doing benchpress you should only come halfway down with the bar and not allow the bar to go all the way down to the chest because the bar will crash into the chest bone and break it!"
[Ofcourse this isn't true of the benchpress since the proper way to benchpress is to slow down the bar before it gets to the chest so by the time the bar touches the chest the bar will be going so slow that it won't be able to exert enough force to hurt the chest bone]

Saying an exercise like full squats is bad because it can cause injury when done impropery is just stupid. Any exercise when done improperly can cause injury.

When doing full squats you should slow down the movement torwards the bottom of the squat. You should be almost stopped as the hamstrings touch the calves. As long as you stop the eccentric movement as soon as the hamstrings touch the calves it won't cause any knee damage.
If you stop the eccentric phase as soon as the hamtrings touch the calves, there won't be enough compression on the calves to effect the knee since both the hamstring muscles, calves, and fat covering them will offer a cushion that will not be able to exert enough force to the knees to cause injury. Unless you allow the hamstrings to crash into the calves or sit on the calves past the point the two first touch.

And by the way, nice avatar. I got sent home from 5th grade for wearing a "mooning bart" T-shirt 🙂

There is no evidence full squats are any worse than half squats. Full squats will develop the hamstrings and glutes much more than half squats which will primarily develop the quadriceps. I would suggest doing both. Half squats for maximum power when the pedals are parallel to the ground, and full squats to develop the hamstrings. Some powerlifters/Olympic lifters have hamstring strength almost equivalent to their quadriceps and could probably pull up with 75% the force they can extend with. Should be useful for sprint cycling.

Closesupport, I have seen studies that show almost no increased incidence of knee injuries/arthritis in elite Olympic lifters over the general population. I have seen studies of increased arthritis and defects of the spine, but that was when the press was still part of OL. The press involved a backbend while pressing a weight overhead, which is about one of the riskiest things you can do in the weightroom.

My own experiences with squats have changed my opinion about the exercise. Basically my view is that too many people make the mistake of going too heavy too often and, above all, straining on power reps - which puts great stress on the body.
If I knew what I know now, I would have trained differently on squats when I started doing them several years ago. Sure, I would have continued to go rock bottom but for reps in the 20 range. My last couple of sets would be with more weight and maybe 6 - 8 reps. I would have done far more light days and stretching.
My current situation is my knees ache and my hips absolutely kill me so it's obviously a result of squats over the years. Heavy weights on squats are a bit of an ego thing you do when you're younger but you can get good results out of squats hitting higher reps and this was also recommended by Tom Platz who went up to 60 reps occasionally.

bikeguy said:

There is no evidence full squats are any worse than half squats. Full squats will develop the hamstrings and glutes much more than half squats which will primarily develop the quadriceps. I would suggest doing both. Half squats for maximum power when the pedals are parallel to the ground, and full squats to develop the hamstrings. Some powerlifters/Olympic lifters have hamstring strength almost equivalent to their quadriceps and could probably pull up with 75% the force they can extend with. Should be useful for sprint cycling.

Closesupport, I have seen studies that show almost no increased incidence of knee injuries/arthritis in elite Olympic lifters over the general population. I have seen studies of increased arthritis and defects of the spine, but that was when the press was still part of OL. The press involved a backbend while pressing a weight overhead, which is about one of the riskiest things you can do in the weightroom.

Carrera said:

My own experiences with squats have changed my opinion about the exercise. Basically my view is that too many people make the mistake of going too heavy too often and, above all, straining on power reps - which puts great stress on the body.
If I knew what I know now, I would have trained differently on squats when I started doing them several years ago. Sure, I would have continued to go rock bottom but for reps in the 20 range. My last couple of sets would be with more weight and maybe 6 - 8 reps. I would have done far more light days and stretching.
My current situation is my knees ache and my hips absolutely kill me so it's obviously a result of squats over the years. Heavy weights on squats are a bit of an ego thing you do when you're younger but you can get good results out of squats hitting higher reps and this was also recommended by Tom Platz who went up to 60 reps occasionally.

Tom Platz... now theres a name i havent heard for some years! question is though why did he do it since his legs where so out of proportion with the rest of his body.

plus what the hell does a 36" thigh offer... no use of steroids to get thighs like that hey!

closesupport said:

Tom Platz... now theres a name i havent heard for some years! question is though why did he do it since his legs where so out of proportion with the rest of his body.

plus what the hell does a 36" thigh offer... no use of steroids to get thighs like that hey!

i wouldn't mind having 36" thighs. good for sprinting i bet. i'm currently at 23", hopefully 25" by spring.

velomanct said:

i wouldn't mind having 36" thighs. good for sprinting i bet. i'm currently at 23", hopefully 25" by spring.

Similar desire here, but i have difficult finding the time plus the energy to sustain a weight training diet along with cycling and work.

Good luck

Last I heard of Tom Platz he married a Japanese lady who's into Reiki. I have a video where Tom is riding a roadbike in California as part of his cardio but I doubt he'd be able to compete with the pro cyclists.

closesupport said:

Tom Platz... now theres a name i havent heard for some years! question is though why did he do it since his legs where so out of proportion with the rest of his body.

plus what the hell does a 36" thigh offer... no use of steroids to get thighs like that hey!

Carrera said:

Last I heard of Tom Platz he married a Japanese lady who's into Reiki. I have a video where Tom is riding a roadbike in California as part of his cardio but I doubt he'd be able to compete with the pro cyclists.

Doubt he'd be able to keep up on the local club training ride.

I agree. I think he'd be O.K. on a very short distance but his legs would blow up pretty quickly - maybe restricting pedal motion.
Even so, to his credit, Tom Platz is one of the few squatters I heard of who can knock out 100 reps. Most squatters do about 6 - 8 reps and that's it! The way we used to do it was with 2 spotters each side of the bar (loaded with 200 lbs). We would then knock out 20 full reps or more. A friend of mine would do 60 reps with the same weight - and rock bottom. That was more cardio than strength training.

ed073 said:

Doubt he'd be able to keep up on the local club training ride.

Carrera said:

I agree. I think he'd be O.K. on a very short distance but his legs would blow up pretty quickly - maybe restricting pedal motion.
Even so, to his credit, Tom Platz is one of the few squatters I heard of who can knock out 100 reps. Most squatters do about 6 - 8 reps and that's it! The way we used to do it was with 2 spotters each side of the bar (loaded with 200 lbs). We would then knock out 20 full reps or more. A friend of mine would do 60 reps with the same weight - and rock bottom. That was more cardio than strength training.

If this guy can do 100 reps of 200lbs, he must have some endurance in those muscles. That is a ton of work, it must take 5 minutes to complete that set. As a good road sprinter who has not done any weight training in the past 2 years, I had trouble getting 280lbs off the rack (squat), I didn't try to do a rep, I had no spotter. I felt like my body was going to compress with that much weight on my shoulders.

I am sure this guy could put up some serious watts in a sprint on the bike.

velomanct said:

If this guy can do 100 reps of 200lbs, he must have some endurance in those muscles. That is a ton of work, it must take 5 minutes to complete that set. As a good road sprinter who has not done any weight training in the past 2 years, I had trouble getting 280lbs off the rack (squat), I didn't try to do a rep, I had no spotter. I felt like my body was going to compress with that much weight on my shoulders.

I am sure this guy could put up some serious watts in a sprint on the bike.

velomanc: little tester for you, before you squat. i used to find it an excellent wrm up, and even without a squat suit i could move alot of weight, plus it really helped with improving my overall squat weight.

first you need a box, a large milk crate is ideal, the 4 corners there's usually a spike, cut them off ensuring the crate is stable and safe (this is to become the base) , now place a board big enough to cover the entire of the base of the milk crate, now flip it upside down so the board is on the top, helps, also if you can put something on the top that will prevent slipping.

place this infront of your squat frame for safety purposes, get someone to stand behind you for further safety, take the weights that you have on the bar then step, adding all the time to a weight until you are really struggling to lift, i used to move almost x3 times the weight that i could squat with.

it proved to be a very effective warm up rather than starting with lighter weights, you'll probably find that you can move very similar weight which you would on a legpress, well if your lower back permits it plus it helped me improve the strength of my ride.😄

step right, left (straighten kness) step left, right (straighten knees) then repeat, also doing the same for the opposing leg, (single leg intervals i used to do for both legs)

Winter Training program, will this prepare me for track racing next year
monday:

squats
seated calf raises
leg press
leg extensions
bicepe (hamstring curl)

Wednesday:

Steps (L/R)
Squats
calf raises (L/R on the leg press)
front squats
Calf raises
leg press
leg press (L/R)
leg extension (L/R)
leg extension (L/B/R)
leg extension
bicepe curl (L/R)
bicepe curl (L/B/R)
Bicepe curl

Saturday: #
Leg cycle circuits

1k bike ride
Steps (L/R, RL)
calf raises
steps (L/R L/R)
1k bike ride
Squat
1k bike ride
front squats
1k bike ride
leg extension
1k bike ride
calf raises

(rest then increase your weight then start over)

(Key: L/Left B/Both R/Right)

Sounds good. I can only do a hard weight session once a week, for the legs. My recovery is not that good.

velomanct said:

Sounds good. I can only do a hard weight session once a week, for the legs. My recovery is not that good.

its not a long time thing, usually last for 12-16wks resting every 4th week off.

well thats my plan start january, its windy here now, but it always gets worse feb march and janurary is usually way to icy and cold.

what do you do through the winter periods, just get the rollers and the turbo out?

I didn't quite say Platz did 100 reps with 200 lbs. I remarked he went as high as 100 reps but I forget what weight he used. It was myself who knocked out reps with 200 lbs but this was for sets of 20. I even have a photo of myself doing this training under the squat bar I'll have to upload at some point.
Yes, I agree 100 reps of squats should build endurance, although you could argue such endurance would still eventually be limited by muscular failure, unlike cycling where momentum and range of movement make muscular failure unlikely.
I've been experimenting with squats again lately due to a knee problem I'm having. It may be the case the problem arose from my bike seat having slipped down lower so I was unknowingly putting more pressure on the knees. I raised the seat higher and have started doing smith machine squats as opposed to free squats. Nearly all experts argue smith machine squats aren't very good and hurt the knees due to fixed motion but I don't agree. I found that by angling yourself on a smith machine you can stress the knees less than on normal squats - hopefully aiding recovery of the knee. Of course, smith machines vary and some are better than others. I follow up the smith squats with leg-extensions, so hopefully my injured knee will strengthen.
On a final note, Tom Platz is a great squatter but he simply isn't built for cycling. Muscle looks great on anyone but it doesn't indicate how good an athlete is. When I lived in Russia I saw totally normal guys with no muscle at all squat 400 lbs easily (at a weight of 172 lbs or around). In the U.K. the only guys you see squatting 400 weigh around 240 or more and they look like barn doors.
Top cyclists (and even some weightlifters) are never muscular and any weight-training they do isn't designed to build muscle.

velomanct said:

If this guy can do 100 reps of 200lbs, he must have some endurance in those muscles. That is a ton of work, it must take 5 minutes to complete that set. As a good road sprinter who has not done any weight training in the past 2 years, I had trouble getting 280lbs off the rack (squat), I didn't try to do a rep, I had no spotter. I felt like my body was going to compress with that much weight on my shoulders.

I am sure this guy could put up some serious watts in a sprint on the bike.

closesupport said:

its not a long time thing, usually last for 12-16wks resting every 4th week off.

well thats my plan start january, its windy here now, but it always gets worse feb march and janurary is usually way to icy and cold.

what do you do through the winter periods, just get the rollers and the turbo out?

I will be starting squats in about 3 weeks, or when the weather starts getting colder. I did some squats last weekend, but I decided not to continue because I was riding like [censored] the after the squats (even at 85lbs). The weather has been absolutely perfect for riding so I want to take advantage of it. So my bike training now is all about having fun which means lots of sprints and almost no other intensity. I am trying to get my 5, 10, and 20 second power as high as I can before I start squats. I also would like to do a good 200 meter speed, so I can compare how much I improve over the winter.

When it gets cold out, I will probally mtn bike once a week, weights once or twice a week, and hopefully still get in one 3 hr road ride on the fixie a week.

velomanct said:

I will be starting squats in about 3 weeks, or when the weather starts getting colder. I did some squats last weekend, but I decided not to continue because I was riding like [censored] the after the squats (even at 85lbs). The weather has been absolutely perfect for riding so I want to take advantage of it. So my bike training now is all about having fun which means lots of sprints and almost no other intensity. I am trying to get my 5, 10, and 20 second power as high as I can before I start squats. I also would like to do a good 200 meter speed, so I can compare how much I improve over the winter.

When it gets cold out, I will probally mtn bike once a week, weights once or twice a week, and hopefully still get in one 3 hr road ride on the fixie a week.

Give the cycle circuits a try, they are good just don't try to train with max weights 50-65% max lifts should be more than enough.

move from exercise >to (this is your recovery) exercise bike > back to the next exercise on your routine until you have completed all, rest then start over.

its very similar to supersets plus it will allow you to continue training within you lactic threshold. the exercise bike should be your main focus the weights somewhat as a recovery

closesupport said:

Give the cycle circuits a try, they are good just don't try to train with max weights 50-65% max lifts should be more than enough.

move from exercise >to (this is your recovery) exercise bike > back to the next exercise on your routine until you have completed all, rest then start over.

its very similar to supersets plus it will allow you to continue training within you lactic threshold. the exercise bike should be your main focus the weights somewhat as a recovery

I will probally be following this weight program. It sounds good. I might not do the muscular endurance phase because I am more concerned with sprint power. But who knows, I might because I will be doing crits next year.

http://spokepost.com/news/?articleID=12

If you are built for squatting i.e. no biomechanical problems and you approach it with good form and technique, squatting can be one of the most rewarding exercises. The shearing forces on your knees are greater before you actually reach a 90 degree angle, so squatting to 90 degrees or below will not be detrimental to your knees, if it's not your ego which is lifting the weight! In actual fact, I see many lifters squating well above parallel, but are using a weight which is far too heavy and is causing them more damage to their backs. Maybe if they squatted to parallel, they would be giving more sensible consideration to the amount they were lifting. Squatting is a great all over exercise - not just for the legs! My question is, does a cyclist need the same amount of power in their back, shoulders, stomach etc as a powerlifter? Would a 'safer' exercise such as leg press serve better as an exercise for the quads?