When did you first suspect Michael Rasmussen was doping?

in message <[email hidden]>, Breaking News

(') said:

Funnily enough, today, after he fended off the attacks in the last
stretch of the steep mountains, and won the stage. (I was going to post
here, "Is he on drugs?" and then the story broke.) Others have suspected
him for much longer. (I wasn't aware he'd evaded the drug tests.)

You know, you're getting awfully close to my killfile; and so far, despite
all the kooks and oddballs, I haven't killfiled anyone in this group.

Rasmussen hasn't (yet) even been accused of doping. He's been accused of
lying about his whereabouts. He could have a number of reasons for doing
this (and yes, doping is one of them). But his performance yesterday is
not evidence of doping, unless he's been doping consistently for many
years (which is possible). We always knew he could climb away from every
other rider in the peloton. Guess what? He did.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Tony Blair's epitaph, #1: Tony Blair lies here.
Tony Blair's epitaph, #2: Trust me.

Quoted message said:

Funnily enough, today, after he fended off the attacks in the last stretch
of the steep mountains, and won the stage. (I was going to post here, "Is

he

Quoted message said:

on drugs?" and then the story broke.) Others have suspected him for much
longer. (I wasn't aware he'd evaded the drug tests.)

-----------
when I first laid eyes on him, I knew he was dirty.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Breaking News

(') said:

Funnily enough, today, after he fended off the attacks in the last
stretch of the steep mountains, and won the stage. (I was going to post
here, "Is he on drugs?" and then the story broke.) Others have suspected
him for much longer. (I wasn't aware he'd evaded the drug tests.)

You know, you're getting awfully close to my killfile; and so far, despite
all the kooks and oddballs, I haven't killfiled anyone in this group.

Rasmussen hasn't (yet) even been accused of doping. He's been accused of
lying about his whereabouts. He could have a number of reasons for doing
this (and yes, doping is one of them). But his performance yesterday is
not evidence of doping, unless he's been doping consistently for many
years (which is possible). We always knew he could climb away from every
other rider in the peloton. Guess what? He did.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Tony Blair's epitaph, #1: Tony Blair lies here.
Tony Blair's epitaph, #2: Trust me.

Ah...another Lindsey Lohan!!

In complete denial.

Look grow up and face it. The sport is broken.

Kill Files....child...

Breaking News said:

Funnily enough, today, after he fended off the attacks in the last stretch
of the steep mountains, and won the stage. (I was going to post here, "Is he
on drugs?" and then the story broke.) Others have suspected him for much
longer. (I wasn't aware he'd evaded the drug tests.)

His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.

HELLO?

No, he hasn't tested positive, but you'd have to be pretty naive to
ignore the circumstantial evidence.

Doug Taylor said:

His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.

Basso TT improvement didn't happen overnight, it started when he moved to
CSC and Riis made sure he worked on his TT position and made him ride his
TT bike frequently. Pantani in 98 would be a better example.

Donald Munro said:

Doug Taylor said:

His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.

Basso TT improvement didn't happen overnight, it started when he moved to
CSC and Riis made sure he worked on his TT position and made him ride his
TT bike frequently. Pantani in 98 would be a better example.

Pantani is ANOTHER example. I still like the circumstantial
correlation: Climber - sucky TT - Blood doping - sudden TT
improvement - grand tour victory.

Blood doping isn't magic: you need a talented, fit, trained cyclist
to win a tour, dope or no. I'm convinced that Basso needed the
training, the wind tunnel AND the dope to win the Giro.

And, no way Skeletor bests a cyclist like a born again clean David
Millar in a TT without "a little help from his friends." That was a
huge clue.

Doug Taylor said:

Donald Munro said:

Doug Taylor said:

His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.

Basso TT improvement didn't happen overnight, it started when he moved to
CSC and Riis made sure he worked on his TT position and made him ride his
TT bike frequently. Pantani in 98 would be a better example.

Pantani is ANOTHER example. I still like the circumstantial
correlation: Climber - sucky TT - Blood doping - sudden TT
improvement - grand tour victory.

Blood doping isn't magic: you need a talented, fit, trained cyclist
to win a tour, dope or no. I'm convinced that Basso needed the
training, the wind tunnel AND the dope to win the Giro.

And, no way Skeletor bests a cyclist like a born again clean David
Millar in a TT without "a little help from his friends." That was a
huge clue.

I think you may be right there

Of course individual riders may work on their technique, but Millar,
presuming he is in fact clean, is certainly a more than reasonable
benchmark

--
Davey Crockett - No 4Q to Reply
-
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

in message <[email hidden]>, Doug Taylor

(') said:

His TT.  Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results:  Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.

HELLO?

No, he hasn't tested positive, but you'd have to be pretty naive to
ignore the circumstantial evidence.

You're missing an important point here. Note: I'm not defending Rasmussen,
I don't know whether he's doped or not. However, Rasmussen has always been
a time trial specialist, he's just done his time trials on a road bike and
in the mountains. But unlike any other modern climber, his typical exploit
is a very long solo breakaway. He doesn't need anyone to work with him,
and he doesn't need anyone to chase. In effect these rides have been time
trials - they take exactly the same mental discipline as time trials, they
take exactly the same physical stamina as time trials, and they're
considerably tougher than most modern time trials.

We remember one specific time trial in which Rasmussen had every sort of
bad luck and lost his composure and his confidence totally, and we say 'he
can't time trial'. But that's just rubbish. He has put in astounding time
trial performances in all the last three tours - he just hasn't done it on
time trial stages.

Rasmussen /may/ have doped, but his time trial performance isn't any sort
of evidence of it.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; Good grief, I can remember when England won the Ashes.

Davey Crockett said:

Of course individual riders may work on their technique, but Millar,
presuming he is in fact clean, is certainly a more than reasonable
benchmark

All things being equal perhaps, but I think Millar had been working quite
hard for his team the day before and he worked hard the next day as well
so he may have been saving himself.

Donald Munro said:

Quoted message said:

Basso TT improvement didn't happen overnight, it started when he moved
to CSC and Riis made sure he worked on his TT position and made him ride
his TT bike frequently. Pantani in 98 would be a better example.

Doug Taylor said:

Pantani is ANOTHER example. I still like the circumstantial
correlation: Climber - sucky TT - Blood doping - sudden TT
improvement - grand tour victory.

Someone with a non-aerodynamic position can achieve quite large
improvement just by improving their position and getting to feel
comfortable on the TT bike. After that the law of diminishing returns
comes into effect and the rider also needs to improve power.

Also the TT that Rasmussen did was far from flat, a flat TT like the one
on Saturday would have been a better test of his pure TT form.

Donald Munro said:

Doug Taylor said:

His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.

Quoted message said:

Basso TT improvement didn't happen overnight, it started when he moved to
CSC and Riis made sure he worked on his TT position and made him ride his
TT bike frequently. Pantani in 98 would be a better example.

Basso isn't a climber, he's an allrounder who just learnt the dicipline
late in his carrer.
Contador and Herras a both examples of pure climbers with
extraordinary good TT abilities. Saiz, Brunel and dr.Fuentes did a
very good job with both of them.

Similary one should stop and wonder when big guys like Indurain,
Armstrong, Hincape, Ulrich and Vinokurov suddenly goes uphill for
hours like a steam lokomotive.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Doug Taylor said:

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 01:57:36 -0400, "Breaking News"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Funnily enough, today, after he fended off the attacks in the last stretch
of the steep mountains, and won the stage. (I was going to post here, "Is he
on drugs?" and then the story broke.) Others have suspected him for much
longer. (I wasn't aware he'd evaded the drug tests.)

Quoted message said:

His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.

Rasmussen wouldn't have won TDF because of TT results.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

On Jul 26, 10:00 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Similary one should stop and wonder when big guys like Indurain,
Armstrong, Hincape, Ulrich and Vinokurov suddenly goes uphill for
hours like a steam lokomotive.

Dumbass -

Ullrich went uphill like the locomotive from the very start. There was
never a transformation - he took 2nd in his first TdF. Dude had
everything but the discipline.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Simon Brooke said:

in message <[email hidden]>, Doug Taylor

(') said:

His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.

HELLO?

No, he hasn't tested positive, but you'd have to be pretty naive to
ignore the circumstantial evidence.

You're missing an important point here. Note: I'm not defending Rasmussen,
I don't know whether he's doped or not. However, Rasmussen has always been
a time trial specialist, he's just done his time trials on a road bike and
in the mountains. But unlike any other modern climber, his typical exploit
is a very long solo breakaway. He doesn't need anyone to work with him,
and he doesn't need anyone to chase. In effect these rides have been time
trials - they take exactly the same mental discipline as time trials, they
take exactly the same physical stamina as time trials, and they're
considerably tougher than most modern time trials.

If you said he was a mountain-time-trial specialist, I'd agree. There
his very high power-to-weight ratio serves him well. On a flat TT, it's
the power-to-frontal-area ratio that matters most (or power-to-air-drag
ratio). There his physiological or body-type advantage is less, and
he'd be expected to do less well. Further, his mountain exploits are
several hours long versus a ~1 hour time trial. While he has the
mental/physiological ability to do long hilly solo efforts, that's not
quite a TT as the Tour has come to stage them (excluding uphill TTs,
anyway).

That said, it's quite true that Rasmussen's change from the final TT in
the '06 tour to the first TT in the '07 tour is very credibly laid
primarily to his having gotten a clue about how to ride a TT stage - he
was certainly clueless (or psyched out and semi-clueless) last year. He
didn't need improved doping to radically improve over his '06 TT's.
That's not to say he wasn't doping for either or both, either.

Mark J.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:02:23 +0200, Morten Reippuert

Knudsen said:

Doug Taylor said:

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 01:57:36 -0400, "Breaking News"
<[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Funnily enough, today, after he fended off the attacks in the last stretch
of the steep mountains, and won the stage. (I was going to post here, "Is he
on drugs?" and then the story broke.) Others have suspected him for much
longer. (I wasn't aware he'd evaded the drug tests.)

Quoted message said:

His TT. Last two climbers who used to suck at TT's and won grand
tours partly by TT results: Basso 2006 Giro; Heras 2005 Vuelta.

Rasmussen wouldn't have won TDF because of TT results.

Not true. He lost than 7 minutes in the 2005 TT

http://www.velonews.com/tour2005/results/articles/8592.0.html

and 8 minutes in 2006

http://www.velonews.com/tour2006/results/articles/10535.0.html

This year he defends.

Do the math.

On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 19:00:40 +0200, Morten Reippuert

Knudsen said:

Similary one should stop and wonder when big guys like Indurain,
Armstrong, Hincape, Ulrich and Vinokurov suddenly goes uphill for
hours like a steam lokomotive.

Suddenly?

--
JT
****************************
Remove "remove" to reply
Visit http://www.jt10000.com
****************************

Mark said:

That said, it's quite true that Rasmussen's change from the final TT in
the '06 tour to the first TT in the '07 tour is very credibly laid
primarily to his having gotten a clue about how to ride a TT stage - he
was certainly clueless (or psyched out and semi-clueless) last year. He
didn't need improved doping to radically improve over his '06 TT's.
That's not to say he wasn't doping for either or both, either.

stage 1 ITT 2005 (prologue-like):
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2005/tour05/?id=results/tour051
174th place

Second ITT: no untainted split times available.

Prologue 2007:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2007/tour07/?id=results/tour070
166th place

I don't see evidence of improvement which can't be explained by motivation.

Then again, there is testimony he has been doping as far back as 2002, so why should we expect it?

Dan

On Jul 26, 10:00 am, Morten Reippuert Knudsen<[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Donald Munro <[email hidden]> wrote:

Basso isn't a climber, he's an allrounder who just learnt the dicipline
late in his carrer.
Contador and Herras a both examples of pure climbers with
extraordinary good TT abilities. Saiz, Brunel and dr.Fuentes did a
very good job with both of them.

Similary one should stop and wonder when big guys like Indurain,
Armstrong, Hincape, Ulrich and Vinokurov suddenly goes uphill for
hours like a steam lokomotive.

Heras used to be much worse at TTs, then suddenly he got
good, suspiciously good. Contador is still pretty young,
so some improvement in TTs is not crazy. Indurain and
Hincapie are pretty big; Ullrich moderately so, though
as JFT points out, he was always good. Armstrong and
Vinokourov aren't even that big - they're both 5'10".

I don't think any of these guys are pure as the driven
snow, but I also don't have dopedar - I can't tell they're
doping just by looking at them.

Ben

oh golly gee when Prudhomme said Rasmussen was evil.