Where does Lance rank among the greats?

[limerickman]

Are you trying to say that he dropped out of the tour to help with the harvest? They reason he did so poorly in stage 1 and 2 of the 1985 TDF is because he was saving himself for the harvest?

Miguel Indurain "I was expected to help my father and my family when I arrived home after dropping out of the TDF. There was always something to be done on the farm....."

Sounds like MI was working on the farm because he couldn´t continue not that he couldn´t continue because he had to work on the farm! I LOVE REVISIONISMISTS!

I was replying to Blaze's question earlier !

MI did drop out of the second tour of the season - I expect he was tired after
completing the Vuelta (and holding the leaders jersey).
Something that LA wasn't able to do at the same age (complete a national grand tour, that is).

 

[limerickman]

Remember we are talking about the modern era of cycling L-man! There are many problems to compare cycling today with "Old School Cycling". First we must compare LA with his contempararies. I can´t spell!

Cunego, yes he was a better national tour rider and I will add him to the list!

Ullrich I already had ranked higher in national tours!

You still haven´t responded to my national tour ranking! If this is all you can muster I guess I have the upper leg!

You made a statement earlier that LA was the best cyclist at 23yo in the modern era.
Wide of the mark there, tejano.

Ullrich and Cunego in the "modern era" flatten LA's results at 23yo.
Moser, Maartens, Fignon, Hinault, Merckx, flatten LA's at 23yo.

As for discussing the "modern era" - if you consider the opposition that Fignon cycled against like Roche Hinault Kelly Millar Anderson Delgado : that level of opposition is a lot tougher than the so called "modern era".

The fact of the matter remains that between 21-24, LA only managed to finish one grand tour in three starts.
The fact of the matter remains that LA's palmares in major stages races between 21-24 is not that of a grand champion a la Hinault, Merckx, Ullrich, Pantani, Cunego, Fignon, Maartens, Moser, Indurain.

The discrpeancy between his level of performance pre-cancer, compared to post-cancer, has not been explained.

 

[Tejano]

You made a statement earlier that LA was the best cyclist at 23yo in the modern era.
Wide of the mark there, tejano.

Modern era is 1986 to present. So any rider 23 in 1986 is fair game. I won´t accept anything stats before 1986. Moser, Maartens, Fignon, Hinault, Merckx are not in this discussioin. They rode during a very different time. Why are you afraid of comparing LA to his peers? Comparing riders in the last 20 yrs is complicated enough. You said you didn´t have a problem with this at the begining of the debate, now your losing so you want to bring out the old-timers???

Ullrich and Cunego in the "modern era" flatten LA's results at 23yo.

Very good! You have two riders who focused on stage races, that´s all? LA flattened those two in one-day races but LA was focusing on them.

As for discussing the "modern era" - if you consider the opposition that Fignon cycled against like Roche Hinault Kelly Millar Anderson Delgado : that level of opposition is a lot tougher than the so called "modern era".

All those guys are pre-modern cyclists. Were not debating the pre-modern era or comparing the pre-modern era with the modern era. You´re complicating the debate because your losing! Just respond to my last big post with all the data!

The fact of the matter remains that between 21-24, LA only managed to finish one grand tour in three starts.
The fact of the matter remains that LA's palmares in major stages races between 21-24 is not that of a grand champion a la Hinault, Merckx, Ullrich, Pantani, Cunego, Fignon, Maartens, Moser, Indurain.

The discrpeancy between his level of performance pre-cancer, compared to post-cancer, has not been explained.

You keep changing the rules! We are looking at modern riders at 23 yrs old not 24! LA contracted cancer at 24 so when we finish the comparison of riders at 23 we can then look at all riders at 24-27, but please keep all comparison to the original 23 years old agreed upon. Again Hinault, Merckx, Fignon, Maarteens, Moser are not in this debate. Pantani and Indurain didn´t measure up to LA at 23 in national tours, respond to my big post with all the data. Pantani a.b the Giro at 23 and didn´t even start a TDF until 24. MI finished one TDF in 97th place!

So you have two riders Ullrich and Cunego! Both of whom focused on stage races! My contention is not that LA was the best stage racer of the modern era at 23 but rather one of the best! In the top five over the last 20 years!

As far as the "mother of all myths" LA was sick at 24 and you said it is understandable. The only two riders to ride a TDF at 21 were LA and MI and neither finished! How many elite stage racers even rode a TDF at 22? Only 5 and MI nor LA finished! The only to finish a TDF were Ullrich, Virenque, and Jalabert. So what are you saying? Not a whole lot!!!!!!

 

[Tejano]

The discrpeancy between his level of performance pre-cancer, compared to post-cancer, has not been explained.

Jan Ullrich 1,800 pts
21 ´95 Vuelta a.b
22 ´96 TDF 2nd
23 ´97 TDF 1st
Damiano Cunego 600pts
21 ´03 Giro 34th
22 ´04 Giro 1st Vuelta 16th
23 ´05 Giro 18th
Laurent Jalabert 360pts
21 ´90 Vuelta 70th
22 ´91 TDF 71st
23 ´92 TDF 34th points Jersey Giro a.b.
Richard Virenque
21 ´91
22 ´92 TDF 25th
23 ´93 TDF 19th
Lance Armstrong
21 ´93 TDF stage 11
22 ´94 TDF stage 14
23 ´95 TDF 36th
Miguel Induran
21 ´85 TDF stage 3 Vuelta 84th
22 ´86 TDF stage 11 Vuelta 92nd
23 ´87 TDF 97th Vuelta a.b
Ivan Basso
21 ´99 Giro a.b.
22 ´00 Giro 52nd
23 ´01 TDF a.b
Fernando Escartin
21 ´89
22 ´90
23 ´91 Giro 67th
Laurent Dufaux
21 ´90
22 ´91
23 ´92 TDF a.b.
Abraham Olano
21 ´91
22 ´92
23 ´93 TDF a.b.
Marco Pantani
21 ´91
22 ´92
23 ´93 Giro a.b.
Gianni Bugno
21 ´85
22 ´86
23 ´87 Giro a.b.
Allex Zulle
21 ´89
22 ´90
23 ´91
Bjarne Riis
21 ´85
22 ´86
23 ´87
ClaudioChiappucci
21 ´84
22 ´85
23 ´86
Joseba Beloki
21 ´95
22 ´96
23 ´97

If anyone has more names to add to the list let me know, or if I got information wrong!

The age posted is the riders age at the end of the TDF. I will modify it to represent the riders age at the time of eack national tour. This means since the (Indurain, Chiapucci, Bugno era, or riders born after 1963 I think) modern era of cycling began when comparing all riders at the age of 23 LA ranks number 5 in national tours!!!!!

That´s pretty damn good L-man! Especially considering LA started racing at 17 in the states with little or no emphasis on stage racing! And he wasn´t even focusing on stage racing from ´93 to ´95! Yet he ranks number 5 overall!

Your mother myth is a joke! LA was a damn good stage racer when compared to his contempararies at the age of 23!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!And he wasn´t even focusing on stage racing like MI was! Simply incredible!

 

[Tejano]

The discrpeancy between his level of performance pre-cancer, compared to post-cancer, has not been explained.

I claimed that at 23 compared to other modern era cyclists at 23 LA was the best one day rider! Here are new rankings for modern era national tour cyclists.

Now there are other much less famous names who rank in here but I´ve only taken multiple TDF podium riders or consistent top ten performers since 1990. And I´ve also included multiple winners of the Giro and Vuelta along with Mayo and Rogers. LA wasn´t a bad national tour rider at all L-man! Especially, if you consider he is basically the only rider on the list who wasn´t focusing on stage races!

I will be comparing LA and MI in stage races soon! From what I´ve seen LA was arguable the better stage racer too!

Jan Ullrich 1,800 pts
21 ´95 Vuelta a.b
22 ´96 TDF 2nd
23 ´97 TDF 1st
Damiano Cunego 600pts
21 ´03 Giro 34th
22 ´04 Giro 1st Vuelta 16th
23 ´05 Giro ?
Laurent Jalabert 360pts
21 ´90 Vuelta 70th
22 ´91 TDF 71st
23 ´92 TDF 34th points Jersey Giro a.b.
Yaroslav Popovych 240pts
21 ´01
22 ´02 Giro 12th
23 ´03 Giro 3rd


No points

Richard Virenque
21 ´91
22 ´92 TDF 25th
23 ´93 TDF 19th
Roberto Heras
21
22
23 ´97 Vuelta 5th
Iban Mayo
21
22
23 ´01 Vuleta 11th
Paolo Savodelli
21
22
23 ´96 TDF 33rd
Lance Armstrong
21 ´93 TDF a.b
22 ´94 TDF a.b.
23 ´95 TDF 36th
Michael Rogers
21
22
23 ´03 TDF 44nd
Ivan Gotti
21
22
23 ´92 Giro 23rd
Ivan Basso
21 ´99 Giro a.b.
22 ´00 Giro 52nd
23 ´01 TDF a.b
Fernando Escartin
21 ´89
22 ´90
23 ´91 Giro 67th
Miguel Induran
21 ´85 TDF a.b. Vuelta 84th
22 ´86 TDF a.b. Vuelta 92nd
23 ´87 TDF 97th Vuelta a.b

Didn´t finish a national tour


Gilberto Simeoni
21
22
23 ´93 TDF a.b. Giro a.b.
Laurent Dufaux
21 ´90
22 ´91
23 ´92 TDF a.b.
Abraham Olano
21 ´91
22 ´92
23 ´93 TDF a.b.
Marco Pantani
21 ´91
22 ´92
23 ´93 Giro a.b.
Gianni Bugno
21 ´85
22 ´86
23 ´87 Giro a.b.
Allex Zulle
21 ´89
22 ´90
23 ´91
Bjarne Riis
21 ´85
22 ´86
23 ´87
ClaudioChiappucci
21 ´84
22 ´85
23 ´86
Joseba Beloki
21 ´95
22 ´96
23 ´97

 

[Tejano]

4. Stage Races

He is allowed some freedom and wins the Tour de L'avenir (a very tough race for up and coming pros : winners from previous years include Greg LeMond).


The bootom line to this discussion is that no great stage race champion has had the dearth of wins in his early career, as Lance Armstrong in stage races.

When looking at LA´s stage race performance we must take into account LA wan´t focusing on stage races! His focus at the time was one day races! From 1985-1987 MI was focusing on stage races. However if we look at what LA was doing in 1993-1995 we can find some very solid performances in stage races. And I think one could effectively argue LA was a better stage racer than MI eventhoug LA wasn´t focusing on them and MI was!



Miguel Indurain .........................................Lance Armstrong
1985..............................................................1993
2nd Vuelta de Andalucia..............................2nd Tour DuPont.
…..………………………………………………3rd Tour of Sweden
…..………………………………………………9th Paris-Nice
1986........................……………………......1994
1st Vuelta a Murcia ……………………….2nd Tour DuPont
1st Tour d´L Avenir ……………….……… 7th Tour fo Switzerland
6th G.P du Midi-Libre………............….. 12th Vuelta a Valencia
1987..………………………………..........1995
3rd Semana Catalan…………………….….1st Tour DuPont
………………………………………………..10th Tour of Burgos

First when comparing their stage race results I think it is important to take a deeper look to see what was really going on! So I pulled up the final general classifications on MI´s stage races.



1985 Vuelta de Andalucia (Ruta del Sol)
General Classification (Final)
1. Rolf GOLZ (All) 23hrs 59min 34sec
2. Miguel Indurain (Esp) + :14
3. Jesus Blanco Villar (Esp) :38
4. Vicente Belda (Esp) :54
5. Angel Camarillo (Esp) :57
6. Federico Echave (Esp) 1:32
7. José Recio (Esp) 1:35
8. Nico Verhoeven (Hol) 1:47
9. Eduardo Gonzalez (Esp) 1:50
10. Pedro Diaz Zabala (Esp) 1:54

I don´t recognize many names here but I did notice 80% of the top ten riders were Spanish.

1986 Vuelta a Murcia
General Classification (Final)
90 % Spanish


1. Miguel Indurain (Esp) 17hrs 32min 19sec
2. Pello Ruiz-Cabestany (Esp) + :06
3. Jaime Vilamajo (Esp) :07
4. Dominique Leclercq (Fra) :10
5. Celestino Prieto (Esp) :11
6. Carlos Hernandez-Bailo (Esp) :13
7. Marino Lejarreta (Esp) :16
8. Roberto Cordoba (Esp) :22
9. Vicente Belda (Esp) :24
10. Mariano Sanchez (Esp) :25


Once again a predominantly spanish top 10, this time 90%. And if you look closely you´ll see the only reason MI won is due to the strength of his team. Roberto Cordoba was racing for Dormilon and dropped 39secs to MI in what appears to be a TTT. Cordoba finished only 22secs back on GC.


2b. Aguilas 22.5 km


1. SEAT-Orbea 28:22
2. Reynolds + :05
3. Kelme :17
4. Zor :22
5. Dormilon :44


1986 Tour de L´Avenir
General Classification (Final)

1. Miguel Indurain (Esp)
2. Patrice Esnault (Fra)
3. Alexis Grewal (Usa)


A solid international showing! But the Tour de L´Avenir is for amateurs and young pros!


1986 G.P du Midi-Libre
General Classification (Final)
1. Claude CRIQUIELION (Bel) en 20h48'04"
2. Jean-René Bernaudeau (Fra) à 23"
3. Pello Ruiz-Cabestany (Esp) à 38"
4. Eric Caritoux (Fra) à 1'00"
5. Robert Forest (Fra) à 1'03"
6. Miguel Indurain (Esp) à 1'46"
7. José-Luis Laguia (Esp) à 2'14"
8. Jean-Claude Bagot (Fra) à 3'54"
9. Gilles Mas (Fra) m.t
10. Joël Pelier (Fra) à 6'35"
11. Marino Lejarreta (Esp) à 9'16"
12. Stefan Morjean (Bel) à 10'00"
13. Laudelino Cubino (Esp) à 10'05"
14. Jesus Luquin (Esp) à 13'04"
15. Jérôme Simon (Fra) à 13'12"


Eric Cartoux was ranked 25th in the UCI road rank that year! Finishe 22nd in the TDF
Pello Ruiz-Cabestany was ranked 27th finished 36th in the TDF


1987 Semana Catalan
General Classification (Final):


1. Vicente Belda (Esp) 22hrs 06min 56 sec
2. Peter Hilse (All) + :17
3. Miguel Indurain (Esp) 4:07
4. Gaston (Esp) 4:26
5. José Recio (Esp) 4:45
6. Acacio Da Silva (Por) 4:53
7. Robert Millar (Gbr) 4:56
8. Pedro Munoz (Esp) 5:10
9. Martin Ramirez (Col) 5:37
10. Juan Fernandez (Esp) s.t.

Vicente Belda was ranked 85th UCI road rank in ´87



Let´s compare these results to LA´s




1993 Tour Dupont
General Classification (Final)

1. Raul Alcala (Mex)
2. Lance Armstrong (Usa)
3. Atle Kvalsvoll (Nor)


Raul Alcala was ranked 18th UCI road rank in ´93 and he finished 27th in the TDF that year.


1993 Tour of Sweden June 15th – 22nd
General Classification (Final)
1. Phil Anderson (Aus) 28hrs 34min 50sec
2. Francis Moreau (Fra) + :23
3. Lance Armstrong (Usa) 1:06
4. Michael Andersson (Swe) 2:09
5. Arvis Piziks (Let) 2:15
6. Patrick Jonker (Aus) 2:31
7. Maximilion Sciandri (Ita) 3:26
8. Michael Blaudzun (Dan) 3:37
9. Sean Yates (Gbr) 4:22
10.Frankie Andreu (Usa) 4:40

Phil Anderson was ranked 37th UCI road rank in ´93

1993 Paris-Nice March 7th – 14th
General Classification (Final)
1. Alex Zulle (Sui) 29hr 07min 45sec
2. Laurent Bezault (Fra) +:41
3. Pascal Lance (Fra) 1:07
4. Armand De las Cuevas (Fra) 1:44
5. Erik Breukink (Hol) 1:55
6. Laurent Brochard (Fra2:25
7. Andrew Hampsten (Usa) 2:27
8. Tony Rominger (Sui) 2:32
9. Lance Armstrong (Usa) 2:45
10. Stéphane Heulot (Fra) 2:54
11. Melchor Mauri (Esp) 3:03
12. Raul Alcala (Mex) 3:08

You will recognize a lot of names on this GC! Zulle, Brochard, Hampsten, Rominger!



1994 Tour Dupont
General Classification (Final)

1. Viatcheslav Ekimov (Rus)
2. Lance Armstrong (Usa)
3. Andrea Peron (Ita)

Ekimov was ranked 9th UCI road rank in ´94 and finished 36th in the TDF that year.


1994 Vuelta a Valencia February 22nd – 27th
General Classification (Final)
1. Viatcheslav EKIMOV (Rus) 24hr 34min 06sec
2. Miguel Indurain (Esp) + :10
3. Tony Rominger (Sui) :11
4. Melchor Mauri (Esp:20
5. Guido Bontempi (Ita) :32
6. Herminio Diaz Zabala (Esp) :53
7. Adriano Baffi (Ita) :54
8. Alex Zülle (Sui) :54
9. Raul Alcala (Mex) :55
10. Beat Zberg (Sui) 1:05
11. Jésus Montoya (Esp) 1:07
12. Lance Armstrong (Usa) 1:09


Once again you will recognize some big names here.


Name UCI road rank in ´94
Rominger 1st
Indurain 2nd
Ekimov 9th
Zulle 13th


1994 Tour of Switzerland June 14th – 23rd
General Classification (Final)
1. Pascal Richard (Sui) 41hrs 32min 28sec
2. Wladimir Poulnikov (Ukr) +1:02
3. Gianluca Pierobon (Ita) 1:04
4. Heinz Imboden (Sui) 1:26
5. Rodolfo Massi (Ita) 2:23
6. Marco Saligari (Ita) 4:04
7. Lance Armstrong (Usa) 4:18
8. Flavio Giupponi (Ita) 4:33
9. Mauro Gianetti (Sui) 4:41
10. Felice Puttini (Sui) 5:56
11. Sean Yates (Gbr) 7:51
12. Walter Bonca (Slo) 8:53


Pascal Richard 7th UCI road rank
Poulnikov was 10th in the TDF in ´94


1995 Tour Dupont
General Classification (Final)

1. Lance Armstrong (Usa) 46:31:16
2. Viatcheslav Ekimov (Rus) + 02:00
3. Andrea Peron (Ita) 2:56
4. Alvaro Mejia (Col) 6:24
5. Daniele Nardello (Ita) 8:47
6. Andrei Teteriok (Kaz) 9:12
7. Laurent Madouas (Fra) 9:30
8. Darren Baker (Usa) 10:54
9. Zenon Jaskula (Pol) 12:12
10.Michael Blaudzun (Net) 12:17

Ekimov 14th UCI road rank in ´95



1995 Tour de Burgos Augst 7th – 10th
General Classification (Final)
1. Laurent Dufaux (Sui) 17hrs 08min 16sec.. (26yrs) finished 19th in the TDF in 1995.
2. Stefano Della-Santa (Ita) +:13.....................(28yrs)
3. Gabriele Colombo (Ita) :49..........................(23yrs)
4. Vjatceslav Ekimov (Rus) 1:12…………....… (29yrs) finished 18th in the TDF in 1995.
5. Bruno Cenghialta (Ita) 1:12..........................(32yrs)
6. Vicente Aparicio (Esp) 1:32........................ (25yrs) finished 21st in the TDF in 1995.
7. Erik Breukink (Hol) 1:54……………......…….(31yrs)
8. Vladimir Poulnikov (Rus) 2:01…….....………(30yrs) finished 25th in the TDF in 1995.
9. Alvaro Mejia (Col) 2:06............................... (28yrs) finished 16th in the TDF in 1995.
10. Lance Armstrong (Usa) 2:41…………..(23yrs)
11. François Simon (Fra) 3:05………………..(26yrs)
12. Jan Ullrich (All) 3:10 …………………….(21yrs)
13. Michael Boogerd (Hol) 3:23……………...(23yrs)

 

[mitosis]

You guys need to get some sleep.

 

[MJtje]

Both won't give in on there point......they both want to prove there point. So this goes on and on and on and on.........ah well I need to go back to the beach!

You guys need to get some sleep.

 

[sopas]

I would only say this:

Armstrong only rides the TdF every year.

Indurain rode either Vuelta + Tdf or Giro + Tdf, during all his carrer (12 years) except for the year 1995. So, Indurain rode 21 big grand tours during his carrer!!! almost twice as Armstrong. Had Indurain focused himself only in the TdF since the mid 80's he would have won it 8 times or more!!!!!!!!!

 

[Tejano]

I would only say this:

Armstrong only rides the TdF every year.

Indurain rode either Vuelta + Tdf or Giro + Tdf, during all his carrer (12 years) except for the year 1995. So, Indurain rode 21 big grand tours during his carrer!!! almost twice as Armstrong. Had Indurain focused himself only in the TdF since the mid 80's he would have won it 8 times or more!!!!!!!!!

It´s called match fittness! The Giro TDF double has been romantisized into something it wasn´t! Basso will ride a great TDF even though he rode the Giro!

Indurain wouldn´t have won anymore T´sDF if focused on it because he did only focus on it! He is Dearth Vader! Look at his Palmares.

 

[limerickman]

It´s called match fittness! The Giro TDF double has been romantisized into something it wasn´t! .

Romanticised ?
You're talking through yer hat - again.

The Giro-TDF double is a massive achievement.
TDF-Vuelta, Giro-Vuelta are also consider double achievements.

You don't know what you're talking about - again.

Indurain wouldn´t have won anymore T´sDF if focused on it because he did only focus on it! He is Dearth Vader! Look at his Palmares.

Indurain probably could have won another TDF : in 1990 He was in contention
but he had to desist from going all out for victory.

21 grand tours : 7 grand tour victories : Paris-Nice, Dauphine : superb and varied and the ultimate modern stage racer.

 

[sopas]

Indurain wouldn´t have won anymore T´sDF if focused on it because he did only focus on it! He is Dearth Vader! Look at his Palmares.

Yeahh right... and still Indurain managed to win the Giro and reach another peak of form in September for the World Championships. Maintaining that level of form for the whole year burns a lot. Armstrong can only reah his peak in July, in September he is, with all due respect, ********.

 

[jhuskey]

Yeahh right... and still Indurain managed to win the Giro and reach another peak of form in September for the World Championships. Maintaining that level of form for the whole year burns a lot. Armstrong can only reah his peak in July, in September he is, with all due respect, ********.

Maybe ,but he is very rich ********.

 

[sopas]

Maybe ,but he is very rich ********.

Yeahh, I totally agree.
Armstrong alone makes more money that half the peloton.

 

[mitosis]

It´s called match fittness! The Giro TDF double has been romantisized into something it wasn´t! Basso will ride a great TDF even though he rode the Giro! .

It deserves romanticising because it is such a major feat. Of course Basso will ride a great tour. Indurain and others managed it.

We'll never know if LA could have peaked twice in three months. That's one of the reasons he can't be considered to be at the top of the class of cycling greats.

 

[jhuskey]

Yeahh, I totally agree.
Armstrong alone makes more money that half the peloton.

Realities of life,maybe not always fair but reality none the less.

 

[limerickman]

Lance Armstrong makes a lot of money - and good luck to him.

It won't alter the fact that - in sporting terms - his record as impressive as it is in one race, does not measure up against the great champions of cycling.

 

[jhuskey]

Lance Armstrong makes a lot of money - and good luck to him.

It won't alter the fact that - in sporting terms - his record as impressive as it is in one race, does not measure up against the great champions of cycling.

When comparing champions I believe you must also compare their competitors of the time to come to a more accurate assessment. Who did they vanquish and how good were they.
On that thought it's time for my training ride,90 some odd degrees F. again today. Damn!

 

[MJtje]

Look Armstrong is not that bad! Only the last 2/3 years he just couldn't do anything after the tour, because he needed to spend time with the cancer community. Which btw is a good cause!

In 2002 (his best season I think) he was 2nd in the critirium international, 4th in the amstel, won the midi libre and the dauphine and the tour got 3nd in world cup suisse after the tour. And before 2002 he also had good seasons..........but youre right not a season compared to a Hinault, merx, indurain.

As I said sports change...........and bear in mind he is an american with an american sponsor. They view cycling totally different then us europeans!

Oh btw you don't know if armstrong couldn't reach another peak in a year. The fact is he has just to many sponsor and other obligations that he can't race a full year like Indurain. Armstrong popularity is just to big in a way for a relatively small sport like cycling!

Yeahh right... and still Indurain managed to win the Giro and reach another peak of form in September for the World Championships. Maintaining that level of form for the whole year burns a lot. Armstrong can only reah his peak in July, in September he is, with all due respect, ********.

 

[limerickman]

I don't think anyone is trying to say that LA is a bad cyclist or is a poor performer.

I do think that there is quite a distance between LA and an Hinault/Merckx/Indurain : but that doesn't mean that LA is a bad cyclist.

I think that it is a pity - for his own sake - that he never tried to win more races during the season, as well as trying to win the TDF : and I apply this to Ullrich also.