Where does Lance rank among the greats?

[MJtje]

This is waaaaaay off-topic......but that's just character of LA. He's not loved, nor wants to be! He wants to beat his competition.......that means verbally, mentally, pshysically......

Everyone does it his way......that was/is his way. Hinault wasn't loved either....but a damn good rider (and tejano an amazing palmares)!

Sopas : I was trying to find a reason as to why Tejano, who claims to be Spanish, slags off Miguel Indurain so much.


No offence was intended by my referring to MI as being from the Basque envoirns (even though as you say, strictly Navarra is not Basque but it does border that region).

I was in that part of the world last year and very nice it is too.
People were very very nice and the scenery is unparalled, in my opinion.
I wouldn't fancy trying to climb those climbs on my bike though !

Indurain's reputation as a cyclist is 100% respected - but I agree as a man, his reputation is even more impressive and is widely respected.
A great sportsman and a great gentleman.

 

[limerickman]

Hello all,

Continuing with the discusion of the great riders of all time, I think many of us are forgetting Coppi. He won the TdF 2 times, the Giro 5 times, eventhough his carreer was affected by World War II (1939-1945) when Coppi was 20-26 years old.

In 1952, at 32, Coppi established the first record climbing l'Alpe d'huez 45:22. Today the record is hold by the now dead Pantani at 37:35. I wonder what would be Coppi's time today with a better trainning schedule, and modern bike with half the weight, and good nutrition. I'm afraid neither Armstrong, Pantani, or Indurain could beat him.

And also keep in mind that back in the 50's there was not EPO or similar drugs available for the riders. Coppi's time is remarkable. A true Champion. The Campionissimo (“The Champion of Champions”).

Fausto Coppi is an all time great.

FC was Merckx idol : EM referred to the time he saw FC competing at a crit near Brussels when he (EM) was 11 and how he longed to get FC's autogragh.
For sure FC's ability in the mountains killed his opponents.
What he would do today on modern equipment, better roads is a tantalising
prospect.

 

[EoinC]

I watched the Discovery Channel 'infommercial' last night called "The science of Lance Armstrong". It was basically intended for non-cyclists..."the riders travel behind each other, riding in the slipstream. This is called drafting..." etc, etc.
The only race that was discussed was the TdF (surprise) and how Lance starts training for it 8 months beforehand. Great emphasis was put on the technology side of things (it is Discovery, after all). The whole thing was pretty disjointed, full of technical wundercrap and shots of Discovery and Trek Logo's. About the only impressive thing was watching Bruyneel speak in 6 languages on a radio while driving and not actually running anyone over.
Not that it adds to this thread, but it really wasn't worth staying up to watch.

 

[Flyer]

If blood chemistry and Michele Ferrari's lodging were not discussed, then the most critical 'discoveries' were left begging.

Sustainable power and oxygenation, medical treatment and a great cover story will win the 2005 TDF, not newer aero bars.

I watched the Discovery Channel 'infommercial' last night called "The science of Lance Armstrong".

snip...

Great emphasis was put on the technology side of things (it is Discovery, after all). The whole thing was pretty disjointed, full of technical wundercrap and shots of Discovery and Trek Logo's.

 

[Tejano]

Dear Tejano,

You are always mentioning that a 22 year Ullrich old beat Indurain in 1996 by 12 minutes, and since Armstrong beats Ullrich every year, well then Armstrong must destroy Indurain. Wow, what a reasoning you have!!!!!!!!

If I follow your logic, then I can tell you that Indurain beat Armstrong in 1995 by 1 hour an a half!!!!! not to mention previous TdF.

No, you are using L-man´s logic there! He compared LA and MI head to head in the ITT´s they rode in the TDF when MI was in his late 20´s and LA in his early 20´s and concluded MI was a far, far superior ITT rider!

I stated the fact that MI finished over 12 minutes back on Ullrich and if you had read my other post I said I do not think this mean Ullrich was 12 min better than MI! But JU did beat MI by a minute was it in the second ITT and in the first he was a few seconds combined! So JU had one minute on MI and then I stated that if MI hadn´t bonked I think JU could have defended his lead in the mountains and might have actually beat MI!

If you are mad at Miguel Indurain because he was your idol but retired without winning the 6th TdF it is your problem my friend. No matter how much you shout here in this forum he is not comming back. With all due respect Tejano, Grow up!!!

I´m not hiding anything! First in reference to other posts I´m not Spanish, but I do live in Spain! I took the name Tejano after posting on a Spanish forum assuming that with my defense of LA and the name Tejano it was apparent that I am American.

I have a lot of respect for MI! He was a great rider! But that doesn´t mean he is untouchable! To argue he wasn´t the greatest of all time is not a crime. To say he faced weak competition is not attacking the man! To say that he too only focused on the TDF ahead of LA is not talking trash.

Ciclying is not only a show you see on TV and some stats you get from a magazine. Have you ever ride???

And what would you say if I told you I lost both my legs in an accident at the age of 5? I didn´t, but if I rode or ride doesn´t affect my ability to debate cycling issues, if I make valid points they become no less valid if I have never ridden! I ride to work everyday.

LA is an extraordinary rider, in my opinion the best rider in the TdF ever, but CERTAINLY not the greatest cyclist of all, because cyling is not only the TdF.

I can defend LA as being the greatest cyclist of all time very well! But first I have unfinished business with L-man. He still hasn´t responded to my posts in full regarding LA´s stage racing ability U23. But I will start making my case soon! Poulider was it? On first glance he was definitley no Jan Ullrich!

No one has responded yet as to how the greatest rider of by far the most important and most difficult race is not considered the greatest rider?

 

[limerickman]

Tejano :

For the third time in two days : LA wasn't a good stage race rider at 23.
Compared to MI, he was second best at 23.

Now 7 wins out of 11 starts, compared to 5 wins out of six starts.......what's the point !

EM the greatest TDF rider of all time - followed by BH.
Then it's a close run between MI, LA and Anquetil for the third best TDF rider of all time.

 

[MJtje]

Oke 1 more time........everyone has there own opinion. Lim uses that stats like LA 7 wins out of 11 and merckx 5 out of 6.

I still think Armstrong is the best tour winner.......based on the most wins.

But you guys see everyone has there own critiria. However I think that everyone agrees, except Tejano that LA is by far the best rider ever!

So dead discussion........

Tejano :

For the third time in two days : LA wasn't a good stage race rider at 23.
Compared to MI, he was second best at 23.

Now 7 wins out of 11 starts, compared to 5 wins out of six starts.......what's the point !

EM the greatest TDF rider of all time - followed by BH.
Then it's a close run between MI, LA and Anquetil for the third best TDF rider of all time.

 

[mitosis]

No one has responded yet as to how the greatest rider of by far the most important and most difficult race is not considered the greatest rider?

The main reason is that not everyone (not anyone?) agrees with your assumption that the greatest tour wins = the greatest tour rider.

There's nothing to respond to. You have made up your own rules to decide the winner.

 

[mitosis]

...However I think that everyone agrees, except Tejano that LA is by far the best rider ever!

I'm not sure whether you meant to say this. If you did you are not speaking for me.

Just to make it clear. IMO LA is not the best T de F rider ever. He is not the best rider ever.

 

[mitosis]

...However I think that everyone agrees, except Tejano that LA is by far the best rider ever!

I'm not sure whether you meant to say this. If you did you are not speaking for me.

Just to make it clear. IMO LA is not the best T de F rider ever. He is not the best rider ever. By any measure.

 

[sopas]

I stated the fact that MI finished over 12 minutes back on Ullrich and if you had read my other post I said I do not think this mean Ullrich was 12 min better than MI! But JU did beat MI by a minute was it in the second ITT and in the first he was a few seconds combined! So JU had one minute on MI and then I stated that if MI hadn´t bonked I think JU could have defended his lead in the mountains and might have actually beat MI!

So what! Miguel's last TT in the TdF was good but not superb. Had he riden like in Luxemburg in 1992 or Bergerac in 1994 and he would have destroyed Ullrich in 1996. Moreover where was Ulrich a couple of weeks later in the Olimpics of Atlanta??? Indurain won the gold medal there against everybody, including the recent TdF winner Riis. As I said before these comparisons you use although interesting are pointless.

I have a lot of respect for MI! He was a great rider! But that doesn´t mean he is untouchable! To argue he wasn´t the greatest of all time is not a crime. To say he faced weak competition is not attacking the man! To say that he too only focused on the TDF ahead of LA is not talking trash.

I never said Indurain was the greatest of all time either. and again Indurain not only focused on the TdF. The TdF was his main objetive but not the only one. The World Championships, the hour record, were objectives too.

No one has responded yet as to how the greatest rider of by far the most important and most difficult race is not considered the greatest rider?

Well, not even Lance Armstrong considers himself as the greatest rider of all times. He has said this in several occasions. Lance thinks he is the best of his time but that's it.

 

[MJtje]

yikes........haha youre right I meant to say that he is not the best rider in history, by far.......... Sorry for the confusion!

I'm not sure whether you meant to say this. If you did you are not speaking for me.

Just to make it clear. IMO LA is not the best T de F rider ever. He is not the best rider ever. By any measure.

 

[Tejano]

The main reason is that not everyone (not anyone?) agrees with your assumption that the greatest tour wins = the greatest tour rider.

There's nothing to respond to. You have made up your own rules to decide the winner.

Stage wins and jerseys have become irrelevant for modern GC contenders! Cycling 101 states that a team leader will hide himself in the main pack well protected by his team! A rider can save 30-40% of his energy for the most crucial moments of the tour! Any team leader who doesn´t do this is limiting his chances of winning. In the past this wasn´t the case so a old school riders like Merckx had more stage wins and jerseys!

Battles are not important the only thing that matters is winning the war. Velo news calculated the miles LA spent out front unprotected for one of his tour wins, it was something like 14 miles in total!

This is the most nuetral impartial comparison I can find and as I said I think jersey wins for GC contenders are part of the past!

[size=-1]Tour de France[/size]
[size=-1]1st Place[/size] 1200pts
[size=-1]2nd Place[/size] 600
[size=-1]3rd Place[/size] 480
[size=-1]Mountains Jersey[/size] 360
[size=-1]Points Jersey [/size][size=-1]360[/size]

This would give LA 6 T´sDF wins for 7200pts
And would put EM at 5T´sDF wins for 6000pts + 5 jerseys for 1800 more.
So we end up with:

EM 7800pts
LA 7200pts

If LA wins this year LA would overtake EM with a total of 8400pts!

-Cycling Hall of Fame.com states:

"This provides a platform from which meaningful comparisons between riders of different eras can be made." in regards to their point system! Like I said Jerseys are no longer objectives for GC contenders and are fought over by riders specializing in only achieving them!

When LA pulled up and let Marco Pantani win that famous mountain stage even the great Eddie Mreckx critisized LA! What you don´t understand is that LA got in MP´s head that day! Marco self-destructed in the mountains a few stages later and LA went on to win his second TDF!

The fact that Lance dosen´t think he is the greatest is his deep respect and friendship with Eddie and that is as it should be! I respect LA for that! But I my friend know the truth, the greatest race the greatest rider!

 

[micron]

Stage wins and jerseys have become irrelevant for modern GC contenders! Cycling 101 states that a team leader will hide himself in the main pack well protected by his team! A rider can save 30-40% of his energy for the most crucial moments of the tour! Any team leader who doesn´t do this is limiting his chances of winning. In the past this wasn´t the case so a old school riders like Merckx had more stage wins and jerseys!

Battles are not important the only thing that matters is winning the war. Velo news calculated the miles LA spent out front unprotected for one of his tour wins, it was something like 14 miles in total!

This is the most nuetral impartial comparison I can find and as I said I think jersey wins for GC contenders are part of the past!

[size=-1]Tour de France[/size]
[size=-1]1st Place[/size] 1200pts
[size=-1]2nd Place[/size] 600
[size=-1]3rd Place[/size] 480
[size=-1]Mountains Jersey[/size] 360
[size=-1]Points Jersey [/size][size=-1]360[/size]

This would give LA 6 T´sDF wins for 7200pts
And would put EM at 5T´sDF wins for 6000pts + 5 jerseys for 1800 more.
So we end up with:

EM 7800pts
LA 7200pts

If LA wins this year LA would overtake EM with a total of 8400pts!

-Cycling Hall of Fame.com states:

"This provides a platform from which meaningful comparisons between riders of different eras can be made." in regards to their point system! Like I said Jerseys are no longer objectives for GC contenders and are fought over by riders specializing in only achieving them!

When LA pulled up and let Marco Pantani win that famous mountain stage even the great Eddie Mreckx critisized LA! What you don´t understand is that LA got in MP´s head that day! Marco self-destructed in the mountains a few stages later and LA went on to win his second TDF!

The fact that Lance dosen´t think he is the greatest is his deep respect and friendship with Eddie and that is as it should be! I respect LA for that! But I my friend know the truth, the greatest race the greatest rider!

I think this, I set the rules like that - hardly an informed debate Tejano, more the rantings on of someone who has clearly only ever watched the TdF and then only in the 00s. Bless you, but you really are talking out of your **** - although I note you no longer argue that Merckx's opposition was weak compared to Armstrong's so I assume you did read my previous post. I shall repeat the same for Indurain's opposition below as then you may appreciate the strength in depth of the peloton of the early to mid 90s. However, I really do suggest that you do some proper research into the sport's glorious history as some of your assertions do just make you seem a little ignorant - and as if you are incapable of seeing beyond the party line (you have clearly bought the Disco spin hook line and sinker - cycling 101? or cycling from the big book of 'Armstrong can do no wrong'? Please!).

And why is the feat of winning all 3 jerseys so redundant? Rominger managed it int he Vuelta and so did Jalabert in the 90s, so hardly a hugely different era. May I suggest it's something not to be considered because Armstrong never managed it? You'll be telling me next that winning a Double is meaningless, too....

Interestingly, you cite hall of fame but neglect to tell us that Armstrong currently ranks only 7th - behind Merckx, Hinault, Coppi, Bartali, Anquetil and Indurain.

Also according to Hall of Fame, Merckx competed against the 8, 10, 13, 15, 17 best cyclists of all time...

Now for your next history lesson - Indurain's opposition:
Tony Rominger: 3 Vuelta (in 93 he won all 3 jerseys), 1 Giro, 2 Tirreno - Adriatico, 1 Tour of Lombardy
Evgeni Berzin: 1 Giro
Gianni Bugno: 1 Giro, 1 Tour of Flanders, 2 World Championships
Claudio Chiapucci: 2 KoM Tour de France, 2 KoM Giro, San Sebastian Classic
Laurent Fignon: 2 Tours, 1 Giro, 1 Milan-San Remo
Greg Lemond: 3 Tours, 1 Worlds
Laurent Jalabert: 1 Vuelta (including 5 stages and all 3 jerseys), 2 Green Jerseys, 2 Paris-Nice, Milan - San Remo, 2 Fleche Wallonne, winner of points competition in all 3 major Tours, 2 KoM Tour de France
Marco Pantani: Tour de France-Giro double

 

[micron]

Stage wins and jerseys have become irrelevant for modern GC contenders! Cycling 101 states that a team leader will hide himself in the main pack well protected by his team! A rider can save 30-40% of his energy for the most crucial moments of the tour! Any team leader who doesn´t do this is limiting his chances of winning. In the past this wasn´t the case so a old school riders like Merckx had more stage wins and jerseys!

Battles are not important the only thing that matters is winning the war. Velo news calculated the miles LA spent out front unprotected for one of his tour wins, it was something like 14 miles in total!

This is the most nuetral impartial comparison I can find and as I said I think jersey wins for GC contenders are part of the past!

[size=-1]Tour de France[/size]
[size=-1]1st Place[/size] 1200pts
[size=-1]2nd Place[/size] 600
[size=-1]3rd Place[/size] 480
[size=-1]Mountains Jersey[/size] 360
[size=-1]Points Jersey [/size][size=-1]360[/size]

This would give LA 6 T´sDF wins for 7200pts
And would put EM at 5T´sDF wins for 6000pts + 5 jerseys for 1800 more.
So we end up with:

EM 7800pts
LA 7200pts

If LA wins this year LA would overtake EM with a total of 8400pts!

-Cycling Hall of Fame.com states:

"This provides a platform from which meaningful comparisons between riders of different eras can be made." in regards to their point system! Like I said Jerseys are no longer objectives for GC contenders and are fought over by riders specializing in only achieving them!

When LA pulled up and let Marco Pantani win that famous mountain stage even the great Eddie Mreckx critisized LA! What you don´t understand is that LA got in MP´s head that day! Marco self-destructed in the mountains a few stages later and LA went on to win his second TDF!

The fact that Lance dosen´t think he is the greatest is his deep respect and friendship with Eddie and that is as it should be! I respect LA for that! But I my friend know the truth, the greatest race the greatest rider!

I think this, I set the rules like that - hardly an informed debate Tejano, more the rantings on of someone who has clearly only ever watched the TdF and then only in the 00s. Bless you, but you really are talking out of your **** - although I note you no longer argue that Merckx's opposition was weak compared to Armstrong's so I assume you did read my previous post. I shall repeat the same for Indurain's opposition below as then you may appreciate the strength in depth of the peloton of the early to mid 90s. However, I really do suggest that you do some proper research into the sport's glorious history as some of your assertions do just make you seem a little ignorant - and as if you are incapable of seeing beyond the party line (you have clearly bought the Disco spin hook line and sinker - cycling 101? or cycling from the big book of 'Armstrong can do no wrong'? Please!).

And why is the feat of winning all 3 jerseys so redundant? Rominger managed it int he Vuelta and so did Jalabert in the 90s, so hardly a hugely different era. May I suggest it's something not to be considered because Armstrong never managed it? You'll be telling me next that winning a Double is meaningless, too....

Interestingly, you cite hall of fame but neglect to tell us that Armstrong currently ranks only 7th - behind Merckx, Hinault, Coppi, Bartali, Anquetil and Indurain.

Also according to Hall of Fame, Merckx competed against the 8, 10, 13, 15, 17 best cyclists of all time...

Now for your next history lesson - Indurain's opposition:
Tony Rominger: 3 Vuelta (in 93 he won all 3 jerseys), 1 Giro, 2 Tirreno - Adriatico, 1 Tour of Lombardy
Evgeni Berzin: 1 Giro
Gianni Bugno: 1 Giro, 1 Tour of Flanders, 2 World Championships
Claudio Chiapucci: 2 KoM Tour de France, 2 KoM Giro, San Sebastian Classic
Laurent Fignon: 2 Tours, 1 Giro, 1 Milan-San Remo
Greg Lemond: 3 Tours, 1 Worlds
Laurent Jalabert: 1 Vuelta (including 5 stages and all 3 jerseys), 2 Green Jerseys, 2 Paris-Nice, Milan - San Remo, 2 Fleche Wallonne, winner of points competition in all 3 major Tours, 2 KoM Tour de France
Marco Pantani: Tour de France-Giro double

 

[sopas]

Now for your next history lesson - Indurain's opposition:
Tony Rominger: 3 Vuelta (in 93 he won all 3 jerseys), 1 Giro, 2 Tirreno - Adriatico, 1 Tour of Lombardy
Evgeni Berzin: 1 Giro
Gianni Bugno: 1 Giro, 1 Tour of Flanders, 2 World Championships
Claudio Chiapucci: 2 KoM Tour de France, 2 KoM Giro, San Sebastian Classic
Laurent Fignon: 2 Tours, 1 Giro, 1 Milan-San Remo
Greg Lemond: 3 Tours, 1 Worlds
Laurent Jalabert: 1 Vuelta (including 5 stages and all 3 jerseys), 2 Green Jerseys, 2 Paris-Nice, Milan - San Remo, 2 Fleche Wallonne, winner of points competition in all 3 major Tours, 2 KoM Tour de France
Marco Pantani: Tour de France-Giro double

Yes, and you still miss, Riis, Zulle, Virenque, and a couple of others.

 

[sopas]

Stage wins and jerseys have become irrelevant for modern GC contenders! Cycling 101 states that a team leader will hide himself in the main pack well protected by his team! A rider can save 30-40% of his energy for the most crucial moments of the tour! Any team leader who doesn´t do this is limiting his chances of winning. In the past this wasn´t the case so a old school riders like Merckx had more stage wins and jerseys!

Battles are not important the only thing that matters is winning the war. Velo news calculated the miles LA spent out front unprotected for one of his tour wins, it was something like 14 miles in total!

Yes, a rider can save up to 30% of his energy by riding protected by his team. That is what LArmstrong does. And now I ask, Did you ever see Indurain ride? Because unlike Armstrong, Miguel was always in front of the peloton never afraid of wasting the theorical 30% of his energy. Perhaps that is why he bonked in 1996 on his way to Les Arcs. I remember that stage very well, before the final climb to Les Arcs there were two other climbs. Indurain led the peloton all day in front as was usual with him in previous years, and at the end he probably paid the price.

 

[rejobako]

Because unlike Armstrong, Miguel was always in front of the peloton never afraid of wasting the theorical 30% of his energy.

I don't disagree, except with the characterization. Another way of putting this is: "Unlike Armstrong, Indurain did not use every opportunity to conserve his energy by using his supporting teammembers, often choosing instead to ride out front, a tactic which may well have cost him a tour or two."

I think my revision is an overstatement, of course, but it never fails to amuse me that some people think Armstrong's maximizing his team's support is some sort of criticism. His team exists for a single purpose: to shepherd him to a GC result. If he fails, they have failed. I can only imagine what Hincapie or Ekimov would say to Armstrong if he tried to ride out front for no reason. They'd probably smack him in the back of the head and ask him if he remembers why he has teammates.

I try not to get too caught up in the Euro vs. American or old-school vs. modern attitudes about things, but it seems there are still people out there with this romantic idea that it's better to risk failure for the sake of style and panache. That may be fine for some, but to my eyes a boring and conservative rider looks pretty stylish when standing at the top of the podium on the last day.

JMHO.

 

[limerickman]

Yes, a rider can save up to 30% of his energy by riding protected by his team. That is what LArmstrong does. And now I ask, Did you ever see Indurain ride? Because unlike Armstrong, Miguel was always in front of the peloton never afraid of wasting the theorical 30% of his energy. Perhaps that is why he bonked in 1996 on his way to Les Arcs. I remember that stage very well, before the final climb to Les Arcs there were two other climbs. Indurain led the peloton all day in front as was usual with him in previous years, and at the end he probably paid the price.

Luc LeBlanc went on a flyer that day.

I remember that stage as well : Stephane Heulot was in yellow and abandoned (crying with knee pain).
Bruyneel nearly got himself killed going over the side of a ravine and got back up and pedalled !
Jalabert looked like he died on that stage.
Boardman looked like death warmed up too.

It was a very cold start to the stage and by the time they hit the final 10kms the temperature had gone up from 6c to 20c, approaching Les Arcs.
Indurain did bonk that day - as he said himself he couldn't remember finishing the stage he was hit that badly.

 

[mitosis]

I think this, I set the rules like that - hardly an informed debate Tejano, more the rantings on of someone who has clearly only ever watched the TdF and then only in the 00s. Bless you, but you really are talking out of your **** - although I note you no longer argue that Merckx's opposition was weak compared to Armstrong's so I assume you did read my previous post. I shall repeat the same for Indurain's opposition below as then you may appreciate the strength in depth of the peloton of the early to mid 90s. However, I really do suggest that you do some proper research into the sport's glorious history as some of your assertions do just make you seem a little ignorant - and as if you are incapable of seeing beyond the party line (you have clearly bought the Disco spin hook line and sinker - cycling 101? or cycling from the big book of 'Armstrong can do no wrong'? Please!).

And why is the feat of winning all 3 jerseys so redundant? Rominger managed it int he Vuelta and so did Jalabert in the 90s, so hardly a hugely different era. May I suggest it's something not to be considered because Armstrong never managed it? You'll be telling me next that winning a Double is meaningless, too....

Interestingly, you cite hall of fame but neglect to tell us that Armstrong currently ranks only 7th - behind Merckx, Hinault, Coppi, Bartali, Anquetil and Indurain.

Also according to Hall of Fame, Merckx competed against the 8, 10, 13, 15, 17 best cyclists of all time...

Now for your next history lesson - Indurain's opposition:
Tony Rominger: 3 Vuelta (in 93 he won all 3 jerseys), 1 Giro, 2 Tirreno - Adriatico, 1 Tour of Lombardy
Evgeni Berzin: 1 Giro
Gianni Bugno: 1 Giro, 1 Tour of Flanders, 2 World Championships
Claudio Chiapucci: 2 KoM Tour de France, 2 KoM Giro, San Sebastian Classic
Laurent Fignon: 2 Tours, 1 Giro, 1 Milan-San Remo
Greg Lemond: 3 Tours, 1 Worlds
Laurent Jalabert: 1 Vuelta (including 5 stages and all 3 jerseys), 2 Green Jerseys, 2 Paris-Nice, Milan - San Remo, 2 Fleche Wallonne, winner of points competition in all 3 major Tours, 2 KoM Tour de France
Marco Pantani: Tour de France-Giro double

I was going to pen my own reply but you did a better job than I could.

thank you.