Where does Lance rank among the greats?

[micron]

I'm quite envious, as you've probably gathered!

Got involved with race organising when I lived in France but only on a regional level - pretty pleased when we managed to get the regional espoirs champs to our village though. And I did get to meet a few riders at the Tour of Poitou Charentes (Tafi, Jalabert in his last season, Chavanel - even Bradley Wiggins!) but Kelly! Roche! Indurain!

And it seems like BigMig is every bit as gracious and charming and decent as he always appears.

 

[Olasnah]

I'm Not sure were LA will place when all is said and done.. the only thing i am sure about is that he's better than me.

I'll second that,,,he is better than you.

 

[Tejano]

Superior climbing ability ?

Where did you concoct that one from ?
Indurain was a far better climber than Armstrong : Indurain was able to minimise the attacks of great climbers like Pantani, Virenque, Zulle, Escartin, Jimenez

Stage 10 2000 TDF Dax to Lourdes-Hautacam(France) - 205km:

On the final climb, LA drops a literal "Who's Who" of the 2000 TdF: Pantani, Zulle, Ullrich, Virenque, Boogerd, Escartin - no one can even think about stopping him. What a statement made by Lance! The glove has been laid down - the race has begun in earnest - it's truly "Defend the Jersey" time for USPS...

1 Javier Ochoa 6:09:32 seconds
2 Lance Armstrong :42 seconds behind
3 Jose Jimenez 1:13 behind
4 Richard Virenque 1:57 behind
5 Manuel Beltran same time
6 Fernando Escartin 2:02 behind
7 Roberto Heras same time
8 Christophe Moreau 3:05 behind
9 Joseba Beloki 3:35 behind
10 Alex Zulle 3:47 behind
11 Francisco Mancebo same time
12 Kurt Van de Wouwer 3:55 behind
13 Jan Ullrich 4:01 behind
14 Michele Bartoli 4:18 behind
15 Geert Verheyen 4:52 behind
21 Marco Pantani 5:52 behind


Looks like Lance dropped those 5 names you threw out there like hot stereos in the trailer park!

Big Mig couldn´t minimize Armstrong on a computer with a mouse, let alone in the MOUNTAINS!







(And remember the TDF had stronger fields in BigMigs day).

That´s an outright fallacy! I´d like to hear your defense of this one.



As for the time trial - no contest.
BigMig would have him for dinner.

Stage 19 2000 TDF Fribourg-en-Brisgau to Mulhouse (France) - Individual Time Trial - 58.5km:
Lance finished the individual time trial with the second fastest average speed (53.986 km/hr) for an individual time trial in the HISTROY of the Tour. (Greg Lemond still holds the record. In 1989, in the 24.5km Versailles time trial, Lemond rode 54.545 km/hr! But, Lance's effort was over a MUCH LONGER course.)

Didn´t they keep records when Big Mig rode? Or is it true Armstrong rode a faster time trial in his second tour win than Big Mig could in all of his tours put together?

For the record what was Big Mig´s fastest TT?











In fact look at Armstrongs results against Miguel Indurain between 1992-1996, you'll see that BigMig swatted him every time.

This last comment left me stupified! From 92-96 Big Mig was 28 - 32 years old during that range and in his prime, while Armstrong was 21-25 He hadn´t reached his prime! (PS they both won their first tour at the tender age of 27! To compare a seven years younger Armstrong to one of the greatest TDF riders in it´s history in a head to head during those years is just plain ignorant, isn´t it? And as an after thought didn´t a 21 year old Armstrong beat a 28 year old Big Mig in the World Championship Road Race in 1993 (an event Big Mig never won)? But to compare a 93 Armstrong to say a 00 Armstrong would be silly now wouldn´t it.)

 

[limerickman]

Stage 10 2000 TDF Dax to Lourdes-Hautacam(France) - 205km:

On the final climb, LA drops a literal "Who's Who" of the 2000 TdF: Pantani, Zulle, Ullrich, Virenque, Boogerd, Escartin - no one can even think about stopping him. What a statement made by Lance! The glove has been laid down - the race has begun in earnest - it's truly "Defend the Jersey" time for USPS...

1 Javier Ochoa 6:09:32 seconds
2 Lance Armstrong :42 seconds behind
3 Jose Jimenez 1:13 behind
4 Richard Virenque 1:57 behind
5 Manuel Beltran same time
6 Fernando Escartin 2:02 behind
7 Roberto Heras same time
8 Christophe Moreau 3:05 behind
9 Joseba Beloki 3:35 behind
10 Alex Zulle 3:47 behind
11 Francisco Mancebo same time
12 Kurt Van de Wouwer 3:55 behind
13 Jan Ullrich 4:01 behind
14 Michele Bartoli 4:18 behind
15 Geert Verheyen 4:52 behind
21 Marco Pantani 5:52 behind

So you take one stage from one TDF to support your contention that Lance
Armstrong is a great climber.

How come he never managed to win a mountain stage in the TDF between
1993-1996 ?

Lets. look at the people that you highlight on this "one stage" to underpin
your premise about LA.

Alex Zulle - he was returning to cycling after being banned after Festina in
1998, correct ?
Pantani - he dropped out of the 2000 TDF a day or two later ?
Virenque - see Zulle above.
Ullrich - we know that he cannot match LA in the high mountain, so you got me there.

Big Mig couldn´t minimize Armstrong on a computer with a mouse, let alone in the MOUNTAINS!
That´s an outright fallacy! I´d like to hear your defense of this one.

Think BigMig did crush him every stage race that they competed in between
1992-1996.
In fact, name a stage race, apart from the Tour Du Pont, that LA managed to win before, he, err, err, "improved" after his cancer.

Stage 19 2000 TDF Fribourg-en-Brisgau to Mulhouse (France) - Individual Time Trial - 58.5km:

Lance finished the individual time trial with the second fastest average speed (53.986 km/hr) for an individual time trial in the HISTROY of the Tour. (Greg Lemond still holds the record. In 1989, in the 24.5km Versailles time trial, Lemond rode 54.545 km/hr! But, Lance's effort was over a MUCH LONGER course.)

So Greg was better than Big Mig ?
Or Lance would have beaten Greg over a longer distance ?
Or, what are you trying to say ?
Selecting one ITT to suggest that LA was better than BigMig is grasping.

Or maybe BigMig was a little bit slower cause he had won the Giro in the same year, twice, when he did some of his ITT's. !

This last comment left me stupified! From 92-96 Big Mig was 28 - 32 years old during that range and in his prime, while Armstrong was 21-25 He hadn´t reached his prime! (PS they both won their first tour at the tender age of 27! To compare a seven years younger Armstrong to one of the greatest TDF riders in it´s history in a head to head during those years is just plain ignorant, isn´t it? And as an after thought didn´t a 21 year old Armstrong beat a 28 year old Big Mig in the World Championship Road Race in 1993 (an event Big Mig never won)? But to compare a 93 Armstrong to say a 00 Armstrong would be silly now wouldn´t it.)

LA did beat BigMig in Oslo.
Indurain was cycling on a punctured wheel in the last kilometre.

To compare a 93 LA to a 2003 LA, is at the root of this entire discussion.
It's why people are sceptical about his "improvement" and his "achievements".

 

[Tejano]

So you take one stage from one TDF to support your contention that Lance
Armstrong is a great climber.

How come he never managed to win a mountain stage in the TDF between
1993-1996 ?

Lets. look at the people that you highlight on this "one stage" to underpin
your premise about LA.

Alex Zulle - he was returning to cycling after being banned after Festina in
1998, correct ?
Pantani - he dropped out of the 2000 TDF a day or two later ?
Virenque - see Zulle above.
Ullrich - we know that he cannot match LA in the high mountain, so you got me there.

Zulle and Virenque didn´t have time to prepare for the 2000 season after a year off? What are you trying to say! Ullrich returned to form after his one year suspension didn´t he? If anything they would have fresh legs I would think! Is it typical to struggle in cycling the first year back after a suspension? Weak point!

Why did Pantani drop out? Did he crash? Pull a muscle? Food poisoning? He seemed fine a 2 stages later in the mountains this time matching Armstrong in the famous "I let you win debate"and a stage later even passing him to gain a few seconds! Are you trying to say Pantani wasn´t healthy, ´cause he appeared to be when Armstrong dropped him for what was it 5 minutes!


Think BigMig did crush him every stage race that they competed in between
1992-1996.
In fact, name a stage race, apart from the Tour Du Pont, that LA managed to win before, he, err, err, "improved" after his cancer.



So Greg was better than Big Mig ?
Or Lance would have beaten Greg over a longer distance ?
Or, what are you trying to say ?
Selecting one ITT to suggest that LA was better than BigMig is grasping.

Or maybe BigMig was a little bit slower cause he had won the Giro in the same year, twice, when he did some of his ITT's. !

I´m saying Armstrong could match if not beat BigMig in an ITT! I´ll see if I can find their average speeds during all TDF ITT during their prime. But obviously it´s very likely Armstrong could beat BigMig in an ITT! It´s in the record books! Second fastest ITT in a TDF! That´s a FACT!

I thought he only raced in the Giro 3 years during his TDF run but I really don´t know? To be honest I don´t really know if the Giro would take anything out of his legs compared to Armstrongs preference to train rather than compete in the Giro! Maybe Armstrong expends more effort in his pre-tour prep than he would in the Giro.

And anyway if Armstrong takes out the one hour record which Big Mig couldn´t do! What will you say then?



LA did beat BigMig in Oslo.
Indurain was cycling on a punctured wheel in the last kilometre.

Losers always make excuses! A win is a win that my friend is part of cycling!

To compare a 93 LA to a 2003 LA, is at the root of this entire discussion.
It's why people are sceptical about his "improvement" and his "achievements".

That is the most pathetic argumet you could make! It always happens! When they pull out the "Donkey to Race Horse stuff" you know their desperate and don´t have much to say!

The doping argument is a complete lack of class! For it to stand you need to do a few things! First have something more than circumstancial or circumspect arguments! (Sorry I can´t spell) Then you would have to prove that Big Mig didn´t dope! for you argument to work!

If one doped and the other didn´t that wouldn´t be fair! But if both are using the only thing you can say is that Armstrong´s got better stuff!

If you can´t address the points I make effectively at least admit it and don´t pull out the "he uses drugs so I´m right argument!


On October, 2, 1996, it was discovered that Lance had advanced testicular cancer that had spread to his brain and lungs. The cancer was spreading rapidly and Lance went to emergency surgery to remove the tumors. The doctors got the cancer just in time to save Lance’s life. After aggressive chemotherapy, all the cancer was killed.
After months of recuperation, it was apparent that Lance would not only survive, but be able to function as a physically-active person. After contemplating what kind of life he should lead, he decided that a return to racing would signify that he had beat the cancer.

Upon returning to peloton, Lance searched for another goal. Through consultations with friends, coaches and other athletes, he decided that a return to the Tour de France would be his next goal.

Before the cancer, Lance was a powerful rider who had a build more similar to an American football player than a bicycle racer.

After the cancer, however, his body dropped most of its muscle mass. Through training, Armstrong streamlined his body and rebuilt himself into a Tour de France contender. His weight after the rebuild was 15 pounds (7 kg) less than his racing weight prior to the cancer.

The muscles in Lance’s upper body didn’t get rebuilt to the same level as before. This allowed Lance to ride the high mountains with the climbing specialists. Lance was always a good time-trialer, but after the rebuilding, he was even better.

On top of that, he had already suffered more physical pain than most people could ever dream of. In short, he was now prepared to win the Tour de France.

 

[micron]

Indurain took 6 minutes out of Armstrong in a TT and his demolition ride at Luxembourg was one of the greatest of all time. Plus, the TTs he rode were longer than those Armstrong has ridden. Oh, and that super fast time - he had a super strong tailwind.

As to the assertion that the competition is as strong as it's ever been - let's see: Pantani did the double, Ullrich has won the TdF and the Vuelta, Beloki has won - what exactly has Beloki won? 3 minor Spanish races and yet he is the great contender. Heras might have threatened but he has spent most of his career riding for Armstrong not against him.

Indurain, on the other hand, rode against: Bugno (2 World Champs, Giro, Tour of Flanders), Hampsten, Lemond, Fignon (2 TdF, 2MSR, 1 Giro), Rominger (3 Vueltas, 1 Giro, 2 Paris-Nice, 2 Tirreno-Adriatico), Pantani, Delgado (2 Vuelta, 1 TdF), Jalabert (1 Vuelta, 2 Paris-Nice, Tour of Lombardy, MSR) and Zulle (2 Vuelta, Paris-Nice).

All that specialisation and focus on the TdF achieves is riders trained to within an inch of their lives with no palmares - how on earth are we to say whether they're any good in any other races? Indurain, Anquetil, Hinault, Merckx, Coppi - all rode against riders who had shown their quality by winning a range of races from Classics to shorter stage races to GTs.

Clearly, Armstrong must rank behind riders who not only all achieved the double but all of whom achieved more GT wins than him - and against stiffer competition. And I'd rank him behind Kelly, Van Looy, Bobet...

 

[leegregory]

Indurain took 6 minutes out of Armstrong in a TT and his demolition ride at Luxembourg was one of the greatest of all time. Plus, the TTs he rode were longer than those Armstrong has ridden. Oh, and that super fast time - he had a super strong tailwind.

As to the assertion that the competition is as strong as it's ever been - let's see: Pantani did the double, Ullrich has won the TdF and the Vuelta, Beloki has won - what exactly has Beloki won? 3 minor Spanish races and yet he is the great contender. Heras might have threatened but he has spent most of his career riding for Armstrong not against him.

Indurain, on the other hand, rode against: Bugno (2 World Champs, Giro, Tour of Flanders), Hampsten, Lemond, Fignon (2 TdF, 2MSR, 1 Giro), Rominger (3 Vueltas, 1 Giro, 2 Paris-Nice, 2 Tirreno-Adriatico), Pantani, Delgado (2 Vuelta, 1 TdF), Jalabert (1 Vuelta, 2 Paris-Nice, Tour of Lombardy, MSR) and Zulle (2 Vuelta, Paris-Nice).

All that specialisation and focus on the TdF achieves is riders trained to within an inch of their lives with no palmares - how on earth are we to say whether they're any good in any other races? Indurain, Anquetil, Hinault, Merckx, Coppi - all rode against riders who had shown their quality by winning a range of races from Classics to shorter stage races to GTs.

Clearly, Armstrong must rank behind riders who not only all achieved the double but all of whom achieved more GT wins than him - and against stiffer competition. And I'd rank him behind Kelly, Van Looy, Bobet...

There's some good points here, i'll never forget 1987 when Stephen Roche did the TDF, the Giro and the Worlds in the same year, i think Roche probably doesn't warrant to be in the top 10 but he was a damn fine ambasador for the sport of Cycling, a cyclist through and through, he recognised the potential in Pantani when he signed him the the Carrera team and it's good to see his son making a name for himself

 

[leegregory]

Indurain took 6 minutes out of Armstrong in a TT and his demolition ride at Luxembourg was one of the greatest of all time. Plus, the TTs he rode were longer than those Armstrong has ridden. Oh, and that super fast time - he had a super strong tailwind.

As to the assertion that the competition is as strong as it's ever been - let's see: Pantani did the double, Ullrich has won the TdF and the Vuelta, Beloki has won - what exactly has Beloki won? 3 minor Spanish races and yet he is the great contender. Heras might have threatened but he has spent most of his career riding for Armstrong not against him.

Indurain, on the other hand, rode against: Bugno (2 World Champs, Giro, Tour of Flanders), Hampsten, Lemond, Fignon (2 TdF, 2MSR, 1 Giro), Rominger (3 Vueltas, 1 Giro, 2 Paris-Nice, 2 Tirreno-Adriatico), Pantani, Delgado (2 Vuelta, 1 TdF), Jalabert (1 Vuelta, 2 Paris-Nice, Tour of Lombardy, MSR) and Zulle (2 Vuelta, Paris-Nice).

All that specialisation and focus on the TdF achieves is riders trained to within an inch of their lives with no palmares - how on earth are we to say whether they're any good in any other races? Indurain, Anquetil, Hinault, Merckx, Coppi - all rode against riders who had shown their quality by winning a range of races from Classics to shorter stage races to GTs.

Clearly, Armstrong must rank behind riders who not only all achieved the double but all of whom achieved more GT wins than him - and against stiffer competition. And I'd rank him behind Kelly, Van Looy, Bobet...

There's some good points here, i'll never forget 1987 when Stephen Roche did the TDF, the Giro and the Worlds in the same year, i think Roche probably doesn't warrant to be in the top 10 but he was a damn fine ambasador for the sport of Cycling, a cyclist through and through, he recognised the potential in Pantani when he signed him the the Carrera team and it's good to see his son making a name for himself.

I can't beleive people rank Armstrong above the likes of Coppi, Anquetil and Van Looy, cyclists with far more depth in my opinion. I would put Armstrong top 10 at best, but top for just TDF.

 

[limerickman]

The doping argument is a complete lack of class! For it to stand you need to do a few things! First have something more than circumstancial or circumspect arguments! (Sorry I can´t spell)

And you don't appear to be able to type correctly, either.
You need to learn how to edit your replies to specific point - before submitting your post, preview them to see that questions and answers are
correctly laid.
Your posts are jumbled and impossible to read - as well as being factually incorrect.

And anyway if Armstrong takes out the one hour record which Big Mig couldn´t do! What will you say then?

Indurain did hold the world hour record.
You see you're factually incorrect again.

Or maybe BigMig was a little bit slower cause he had won the Giro in the same year, twice, when he did some of his ITT's. !

Armstrong Indurain ITT results
ITT's results from 1993-1996.

1993 TDF :
PUY DU FOU, 6.8 km ITT
1.Miguel Indurain en 8'12" (Moy : 49.756 km/h)
81. Armstrong at 47"

LAC DE MADINE, 59 km ITT
1. Miguel Indurain en 1h12'50" (Moy : 48.604 km/h)
27. Armstrong at 6'04" (6 Minutes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

BRETIGNY SUR ORGE-MONTHLERY, 48 km ITT
Indurain finished second.
Lance had found out that he couldn't compete and had dropped out of the
1993 TDF.

1994 TDF :

LILLE / Euralille, 7.2 km ITT
2. M.Indurain à 15"
18. Armstrong à 39"

PERIGUEUX-BERGERAC, 64 km ITT
1. Miguel Indurain en 1h15'58" (Moy : 50.548 km/h)
13. Armstrong à 6'23" (six minutes, once again, seems LA ain't improving).

CLUSES-MORZINE AVORIAZ, 47.5 km ITT
1. Piotr Ugrumov en 1h22'59" (Moy : 34.344 km/h)
2. Pantani à 1'38"
3. Indurain à 3'16"
As in 1993 - by this stage LA had dropped put of the TDF.

1995 TDF

HUY (Bel)-SERAING (Bel), 54 km ITT
1. Miguel Indurain en 1h04'16" (Moy : 50.414 km/h)
19. Armstrong à 5'09"

LAC DE VASSIVIERE, 46.5 km ITT
1. Miguel Indurain en 57'34" (Moy : 48.465 km/h)
43. Armstrong à 6'24" (over six minutes again)

1995 GC Overall :

1. Miguel INDURAIN (Esp) en 92h44'59"
36. Lance Armstrong (Usa) à 1h28'06"

1996 TDF

Armstrong did not compete in any ITT in the TDF.

On October, 2, 1996, it ...........................
Upon returning to peloton, Lance searched for another goal. Through consultations with friends, coaches and other athletes, he decided that a return to the Tour de France would be his next goal.

Before the cancer, Lance was a powerful rider who had a build more similar to an American football player than a bicycle racer. [/font]

After the cancer, however, his body dropped most of its muscle mass. Through training, Armstrong streamlined his body and rebuilt himself into a Tour de France contender. His weight after the rebuild was 15 pounds (7 kg) less than his racing weight prior to the cancer.

The muscles in Lance’s upper body didn’t get rebuilt to the same level as before. This allowed Lance to ride the high mountains with the climbing specialists. Lance was always a good time-trialer, but after the rebuilding, he was even better.

On top of that, he had already suffered more physical pain than most people could ever dream of. In short, he was now prepared to win the Tour de France. [/font][/font]

So the Oldsmobile became a Ferarri - a Michele Ferrari, perhaps.

 

[Tejano]

And you don't appear to be able to type correctly, either.
You need to learn how to edit your replies to specific point - before submitting your post, preview them to see that questions and answers are
correctly laid.
Your posts are jumbled and impossible to read - as well as being factually incorrect.



Indurain did hold the world hour record.
You see you're factually incorrect again.




Armstrong Indurain ITT results
ITT's results from 1993-1996.

1993 TDF :
PUY DU FOU, 6.8 km ITT
1.Miguel Indurain en 8'12" (Moy : 49.756 km/h)
81. Armstrong at 47"

LAC DE MADINE, 59 km ITT
1. Miguel Indurain en 1h12'50" (Moy : 48.604 km/h)
27. Armstrong at 6'04" (6 Minutes !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!).

BRETIGNY SUR ORGE-MONTHLERY, 48 km ITT
Indurain finished second.
Lance had found out that he couldn't compete and had dropped out of the
1993 TDF.

1994 TDF :

LILLE / Euralille, 7.2 km ITT
2. M.Indurain à 15"
18. Armstrong à 39"

PERIGUEUX-BERGERAC, 64 km ITT
1. Miguel Indurain en 1h15'58" (Moy : 50.548 km/h)
13. Armstrong à 6'23" (six minutes, once again, seems LA ain't improving).

CLUSES-MORZINE AVORIAZ, 47.5 km ITT
1. Piotr Ugrumov en 1h22'59" (Moy : 34.344 km/h)
2. Pantani à 1'38"
3. Indurain à 3'16"
As in 1993 - by this stage LA had dropped put of the TDF.

1995 TDF

HUY (Bel)-SERAING (Bel), 54 km ITT
1. Miguel Indurain en 1h04'16" (Moy : 50.414 km/h)
19. Armstrong à 5'09"

LAC DE VASSIVIERE, 46.5 km ITT
1. Miguel Indurain en 57'34" (Moy : 48.465 km/h)
43. Armstrong à 6'24" (over six minutes again)

1995 GC Overall :

1. Miguel INDURAIN (Esp) en 92h44'59"
36. Lance Armstrong (Usa) à 1h28'06"

1996 TDF

Armstrong did not compete in any ITT in the TDF.



So the Oldsmobile became a Ferarri - a Michele Ferrari, perhaps.

I can´t figure out how to reply to a specific point by slicing your reply! I´ll work on it.

Are there two hour records or what? Which one is the real hour record? Did Big Mig hold both? I thought I read how Eddie M. went to Manchester to watch his record be broken.

Armstrongs average Moy for his ITTs in TDF not including last year was 49.84 km/h with an average distance of 53.875 km. This is only ITTs over 30 KM. this is compared to Indurains average Moy for the ITT´s which Armstrong competed against him and finished was 49.51 km/h with an average distance of 55.88.

I working on finding all Big Migs ITTs to make a better comparison. But Armstrong has at least 2 TDF ITTs faster than any of Migs. And his fastest was is the rain in 2003 I think.

My point with all this is not to prove that Armstrong was a better ITT rider (even though this may be true) but that Big Mig would by no means dominate Armstrong!

Once again you compare a young Armstrong to a Indurain in his prime to make the claim Indurain would dominate Armstrong??? If you repeat it enough I guess you start to believe it! That still has to be one of the most ignorant arguments I´ve seen!

And you didn´t respond to Armstrong dropping a Who´s Who of the 2000 tour in the mountains! I believe Armstrong´s fastest time up Alp d´Huez was 1:40 something faster than Indurains best. Armstrong can Climb! At least give me that!

Do you end all your responses about Armstrong with doping references or what?

And last do you think Indurain doped?

 

[Tejano]

Indurain took 6 minutes out of Armstrong in a TT and his demolition ride at Luxembourg was one of the greatest of all time. Plus, the TTs he rode were longer than those Armstrong has ridden. Oh, and that super fast time - he had a super strong tailwind.

As to the assertion that the competition is as strong as it's ever been - let's see: Pantani did the double, Ullrich has won the TdF and the Vuelta, Beloki has won - what exactly has Beloki won? 3 minor Spanish races and yet he is the great contender. Heras might have threatened but he has spent most of his career riding for Armstrong not against him.

Indurain, on the other hand, rode against: Bugno (2 World Champs, Giro, Tour of Flanders), Hampsten, Lemond, Fignon (2 TdF, 2MSR, 1 Giro), Rominger (3 Vueltas, 1 Giro, 2 Paris-Nice, 2 Tirreno-Adriatico), Pantani, Delgado (2 Vuelta, 1 TdF), Jalabert (1 Vuelta, 2 Paris-Nice, Tour of Lombardy, MSR) and Zulle (2 Vuelta, Paris-Nice).

All that specialisation and focus on the TdF achieves is riders trained to within an inch of their lives with no palmares - how on earth are we to say whether they're any good in any other races? Indurain, Anquetil, Hinault, Merckx, Coppi - all rode against riders who had shown their quality by winning a range of races from Classics to shorter stage races to GTs.

Clearly, Armstrong must rank behind riders who not only all achieved the double but all of whom achieved more GT wins than him - and against stiffer competition. And I'd rank him behind Kelly, Van Looy, Bobet...

Armstrong has faced tougher competition than Indurain with out a doubt! Indurain never faced a guy like Ullrich! And Lance has sent him packing numerous times!



Take a look at the Cycling Hall of Fame.com site!



19. Jan Ullrich was born in Rostock, Germany on December 2, 1973. Ullrich turned pro in 1995. His height is 6’ (183 cm) and his competition weight is 161 pounds (73 kg).

Ullrich is an all-round rider of great talent. He has won two Grand Tours (one Tour de France and one Vuelta a Espana), placed second five times in the Tour de France and won an Olympic Road Race title.

In addition to the CyclingHallofFame.com designated races, he has won the World Championship Time Trial on two occasions.

In 1996, at age 22, he rode his first Tour de France on the Deutche Telekom team as the lieutenant to Denmark’s Bjarne Riis. That year, Riis stopped Miguel Indurain’s five-year winning streak in the Tour de France. Ullrich placed second, just 1:41 behind Riis.

In 1997, Ullrich was to continue to support Riis as team leader, but it became apparent that Ullrich was the stronger rider and Riis ended up supporting Ullrich in Ullrich’s win over Richard Virenque of France and Marco Pantani of Italy.

21. Erik Zabel was born in Berlin, Germany on July 7, 1970. He turned pro in 1992. His height is 5’9” (176 cm) and weight is 152 pounds (69 kg).

Zabel’s main claim to fame is the he holds the record for points jersey victories in the Tour de France with six consecutive victories, in 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, and 2001.

Zabel also won three Points Jerseys in the Vuelta a Espana, in 2002, 2003, and 2004.

Zabel’s sprinting strength is evident in the one-day classics as well where he has four Milan-San Remo victories, in 1997, 1998, 2000, and 2001.

He also won Paris-Tours in 1994 and 2003, and the Amstel Gold Race in 2000.

In addition, Zabel placed 3rd in the 2000 Paris-Roubaix Classic behind Belgians Johan Museeuw and Peter Van Petegem.

Zabel also placed 2nd in the 2004 World Championship Road Race behind Oscar Freire of Spain. Zabel was also 4th in the 2001 World Championship Road Race behind Oscar Freire of Spain, Paolo Bettini of Italy , and Andrej Hauptman of Slovenia.



Ullrich is two years younger than Lance and Zabel one year older! They have all been at their prime at exactly the same time!

The two guys on your list who made the top 25 were

16. Lemond

and

20. Fignon

Both were on the down side of there career and in 1991 when Indurain won his first TDF Fignon finished in 6th at 11:27 back and Lemond in 7th at 13:13 back! Vaya! That´s stiff competition! The next year they weren´t even on the radar! So they had a good Palmares? That´s why you through them in there! Beloki has been much more competitive during Lances run than those two were to Indurain!

Once again I´m stupefied! You guys treat those Palmares like their Holy Grails! And another thing you got a total of 8 Vueltas out there! The Vuelta a Grand Tour! Give me a break! The Vuelta is for Spanish riders and anyone who didn´t meet expectations during the real season or is coming back from injury!

 

[meehs]

Are there two hour records or what? Which one is the real hour record? Did Big Mig hold both? I thought I read how Eddie M. went to Manchester to watch his record be broken.

Yes there are two separate hour records now. In 2000 the UCI decided to establish two separate hour records because they were concerned that technological advancements in the bicycle were starting to outweigh the prowess of the athletes.

They ruled that the fastest hour record set on a "conventional" bike was Eddy Merckx's record set in 1972. Boardman set-out to beat that record and he did do it (just barely!). It was in Manchester I think but I don't remember if Merckx was on-hand to see it or not.

Big Mig did hold the hour record before the UCI made that ruling though. So he was the official holder of the hour record at one time. I think it was in 1994 and his record only lasted a month or two before it was broken by Rominger. During the mid-ninties there was a lot of action with various riders going for the hour record.

 

[limerickman]

Are there two hour records or what? Which one is the real hour record? Did Big Mig hold both? I thought I read how Eddie M. went to Manchester to watch his record be broken.
[/color]

Meehs has answered your question (see above).

Armstrongs average Moy for his ITTs in TDF not including last year was 49.84 km/h with an average distance of 53.875 km. This is only ITTs over 30 KM. this is compared to Indurains average Moy for the ITT´s which Armstrong competed against him and finished was 49.51 km/h with an average distance of 55.88.

I working on finding all Big Migs ITTs to make a better comparison. But Armstrong has at least 2 TDF ITTs faster than any of Migs. And his fastest was is the rain in 2003 I think.

My point with all this is not to prove that Armstrong was a better ITT rider (even though this may be true) but that Big Mig would by no means dominate Armstrong!

The fact is that Indurain did destroy LA and all the rest of his competitors.

It seems to me that you're suggesting that LA is invincible.
The record shows that for the first 4 years of his career, he was far from invincible - in fact, he was losing over six minutes in ITT's.
If you like, I can pull the data for the mountain stages as well.

What's the point in doing that though, it would only show further that LA was no way near Indurain and was even struggling against guys who were no deemed to be "super champions" as well.

And you didn´t respond to Armstrong dropping a Who´s Who of the 2000 tour in the mountains! I believe Armstrong´s fastest time up Alp d´Huez was 1:40 something faster than Indurains best. Armstrong can Climb! At least give me that!
Do you end all your responses about Armstrong with doping references or what?

And last do you think Indurain doped?

Yes, I acknowledge that LA managed to outclimb the greatest climbers in the 2000 TDF.
The difficulty I have with his performance is that it is a universe away from LA's abilities in the 1992-1996 period.

It is highly suspicious how a rider can improve to such an extent.
If I had seen any glimmer of this ability between 1992-1996, I would give him the benefit of a considerable doubt.
But there is nothing from 1992-1996, which suggests that he was capable of doing, what he has done since 1999. Nothing.

Do I think Indurain was doping ? I don't know - is my answer.
I do not see any sudden improvements in his career - his career suggests
progress year on year.
He may well have been doping - but I couldn't say.

 

[micron]

Yes there are two separate hour records now. In 2000 the UCI decided to establish two separate hour records because they were concerned that technological advancements in the bicycle were starting to outweigh the prowess of the athletes.

They ruled that the fastest hour record set on a "conventional" bike was Eddy Merckx's record set in 1972. Boardman set-out to beat that record and he did do it (just barely!). It was in Manchester I think but I don't remember if Merckx was on-hand to see it or not.

Big Mig did hold the hour record before the UCI made that ruling though. So he was the official holder of the hour record at one time. I think it was in 1994 and his record only lasted a month or two before it was broken by Rominger. During the mid-ninties there was a lot of action with various riders going for the hour record.

Tejano, are you telling me that Erik Zabel is a seriosu GT contender? Dearie me...

Let's take Zabel out of this equation shall we, as to include him is frankly just silly. Ullrich ranks 19 - great, I'm glad to see it. But do any other of Armstrong's opponents figure in this list - hmmm, let's see...nope, can't see an y other familiar names until we hit the far regions of this list. However, let's check the positions of Indurain's opposition:

Lmond 16, Fignon 20, Chiapucci 26, Rominger 28, Jalabert 29

If we play yr game of averages, then the strength in depth of Indurain's competition wipes the floor with that of Armstrong. But then you clearly don't have a clue who riders like Chiapucci, Rominger or Bugno were and probably only know Jalabert for his KoM jerseys in the Tour.

Depsite the poor competition (and if you cite the fact that the peloton is 'much stronger' whilst naievely believing its clean, well more fool you) let's look at the overall thinness of the palmares. Armstrong will only ever be a one trick pony until he has a few Classics but, more importantly, at least one GT double. Because, at the moment, in terms of overall GTs won he ranks last (and least) of the real Greats:

Indurain - 7 GTs (5 TdF, 2 Giro - back to back Giro/Tour doubles)
Coppi - 7 GTs (5 Giro, 2 TdF - and a double)
Anquetil - 8 GTs (first man to win all 3 GTs)
Hinault - 10 GTs
Merckx - 11 GTs

sorry, you need to go and look at yr history books and get a real feel for road racing before you will ever convince any afficionado/tifoso/true fan that Armstrong is anything like the real deal.

 

[Tejano]

Tejano, are you telling me that Erik Zabel is a seriosu GT contender? Dearie me...

Let's take Zabel out of this equation shall we, as to include him is frankly just silly. Ullrich ranks 19 - great, I'm glad to see it. But do any other of Armstrong's opponents figure in this list - hmmm, let's see...nope, can't see an y other familiar names until we hit the far regions of this list. However, let's check the positions of Indurain's opposition:

Lmond 16, Fignon 20, Chiapucci 26, Rominger 28, Jalabert 29

If we play yr game of averages, then the strength in depth of Indurain's competition wipes the floor with that of Armstrong. But then you clearly don't have a clue who riders like Chiapucci, Rominger or Bugno were and probably only know Jalabert for his KoM jerseys in the Tour.

Depsite the poor competition (and if you cite the fact that the peloton is 'much stronger' whilst naievely believing its clean, well more fool you) let's look at the overall thinness of the palmares. Armstrong will only ever be a one trick pony until he has a few Classics but, more importantly, at least one GT double. Because, at the moment, in terms of overall GTs won he ranks last (and least) of the real Greats:

Indurain - 7 GTs (5 TdF, 2 Giro - back to back Giro/Tour doubles)
Coppi - 7 GTs (5 Giro, 2 TdF - and a double)
Anquetil - 8 GTs (first man to win all 3 GTs)
Hinault - 10 GTs
Merckx - 11 GTs

sorry, you need to go and look at yr history books and get a real feel for road racing before you will ever convince any afficionado/tifoso/true fan that Armstrong is anything like the real deal.

Hey Micron!

Great point about Zabel! I hoped you would do that!

That is one of my points! Basically, you can´t ONLY use Palmares to compare riders and sometimes they are of just no use at all! And it appears in the modern age of specilization you can´t even use them to compare riders of the same era!

I´ll take him off my list of competition riding against Armstron!

But you didn´t respond to my point concernig the first two riders on your list!

Lmond 16, Fignon 20, Chiapucci 26, Rominger 28, Jalabert 29

Those two were both at the end of their careers when they faced Indurain in 91 and neither of them represented any real competition! They finished 6th and 7th overall! Is that the definition of competition?

The following year was even worse! Using that logic, Ullrich´s demolishion of Indurain in 96 means that Ullrich was better than Indurain! And we all know that isn´t true!

Just because Jan beat Miguel at the end of his carrer when he cracked doesn´t mean you can compare a 96 Ullrich with a 91 - 95 Indurain!

To say Lmond and Fignon were at the same level as in their prime when Indurain beat them in 91 and 92? ???? is just not true! Yes, they won tours and we champions but when they faced Indurain in 91 they too were demolished!

Finishing in 6th or 7th place at how many minutes back? does not represent competition in my book.

I request you with draw them from your list.

If you agree that would leave you Chiapucci 26, Rominger 28, Jalabert 29.

If you have justification to keep them on the list I will hear your view.

And yes your right! As of a few months ago I knew jack **** about cycling! But I´m learning! And yes I was brought to the sport by Armstrongs exploits and the fact I live in Europe! But no I´m not an Armstrong crusader! I´m only looking to have a real debate and learn something along the way!

Tejano

 

[Tejano]

Yes, I acknowledge that LA managed to outclimb the greatest climbers in the 2000 TDF.
The difficulty I have with his performance is that it is a universe away from LA's abilities in the 1992-1996 period.

QUOTE]

Mr. Limerman

You acknowledge that LA managed to outclimb the greatest climbers in the 2000 TDF.

My question is did Indurain manage to outclimb this group of climbers or did he just minimize his loses? Did Indurain ever succesfully attack in the mountains or was he constanly minimizing?

I found a thread with Times climbing Alp d´Huez. I don´t know if they were the fastest or just a selection. Is there a site with the fastest times up the most famous climbs in the TDF?

I´m still looking for some of Indurains TDF ITT times.

Tejano

 

[limerickman]

Mr. Limerman

You acknowledge that LA managed to outclimb the greatest climbers in the 2000 TDF.

My question is did Indurain manage to outclimb this group of climbers or did he just minimize his loses? Did Indurain ever succesfully attack in the mountains or was he constanly minimizing?

I found a thread with Times climbing Alp d´Huez. I don´t know if they were the fastest or just a selection. Is there a site with the fastest times up the most famous climbs in the TDF?

I´m still looking for some of Indurains TDF ITT times.

Tejano

Nobody is doubting that LA managed to outclimb people who previously destroyed him between 1992-1996, in 2000.
What concerns me is how did he manage to improve to such an extent that he was able to do this.
That is the question I have.

If there was one iota of the performance he has perfected from 1999, during the period 1992-1996, I would be more willing to accept that LA could have performed as he has done since recovering from cancer.

Therein lies the problem.

Whatever about LA's ability to ride on the flat in 1992-1996, and he was a good flat, one day rider, he had zero ability to climb the big climbs.
(I have the live tapes from Eurosport from 1992-1996 and I will galdly send you a copy of same, if you do not believe me).
So how he managed to metamorphisise in to a great climber and beat the greatest climbers, is another mystery.

As regards BigMig, he limited his losses in the mountains.
If you read his comments about Pantani in 1995 TDF "if I tried to follow Pantani, I would have burst" sums up Indurains attitude.
He tried to minimise the losses.

Finally on the previous page I gave you BigMigs ITT speeds by stage in the 1992-1996 TDF, so you don't have to search (read my replies).

 

[musette]

He improved because (1) he lost a lot of weight as a result of his cancer -- which, as everybody knows, is crucial to climbing, (2) the cancer also taught him personal discipline and gave him more tenacity, and (3) he developed a high cadence pedalling style that made him a better climber.

Everybody knows why LA climbed better -- .

 

[limerickman]

Everybody knows why LA climbed better -- .

That's a great yarn.
Straight out of his books, no less.

The Ferrari/O'Reilly/Swart option is more believable.
Of course, you won't read about these excuses in his books.

 

[musette]

Well, nobody disputes that:

-- LA weighed a lot less after his cancer than before.

-- Somebody who weighs less tends to climb better.

-- LA developed a high cadence pedalling style, which is particuarly helpful in minimizing muscle fatigue and particularly wonderful in view of LA's particularly large heart (also demonstrated to people)

-- LA metabolizes lactic acid particularly rapidly.

-- LA has a high VO2 something ratio.

-- LA became mentally tougher as a result of his cancer.