Which is more advisable...standing or sitting while climbing hillls?

[[email protected]]

Michael Press wrote:
> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Mike Reed" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> >
> > Great links! The last one mentioned Kautz and Hull, which I googled and
> > produced this, which may be the paper John and Jason are referring to.
> > I still need to read it though...
> > http://www.me.utexas.edu/~neptune/Papers/job32(10).pdf
>
> One point:
> They think and have evidence that at a high cadence some
> negative muscular work in pedaling is inevitable because
> of the finite time it takes to fully activate our muscles.
>

The authors touch on the fact that these competitive cyclist may be
used to using 90 RPM and that perhaps with training at a higher cadence
the differences may not be so pronounced. I think this is a very
important point. I would have been interesting to know what average
cadence these riders use when riding, and perhaps have subjects who
have settled upon a variety of different cadences. IE a spinner, a
masher, etc. Perhaps this finite time to activate the muscles is
somewhat training related.

Joseph

 

[[email protected]]

Thanks for finding that, Mike. I scanned it and it certainly seems to
support the theory John and I remember. The test subjects are described
only as "competitive cyclists," so we don't really know whether they
were Cat IVs or souplesse-soaked pros.

Leafing through my copy of _Bicycling Science_, (Wilson, 3rd edition) I
found a graph of pedal-force vectors on p. 80 (fig. 2.14) that lends a
little more support to that claim. (N.B. the graph itself is from
Okajima 1983).

Personally, I'm not all that concerned about optimal pedal force
vectors; my only point was that what we visualize and what we do are
often very different, and this holds true for elite athletes as well as
for the rest of us. I think these data support that premise at least to
some degree.

Cheers,

Jason

 

[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On Wed, 17 May 2006 17:52:37 +0000 (UTC), Booker C. Bense
<[email protected]> wrote:
>In article <[email protected]>,
>John Forrest Tomlinson <[email protected]> wrote:
>>On 16 May 2006 10:37:06 -0700, [email protected] wrote:
>>
>>> See Keith
>>>Code's books on motorcycle racing.
>
>_ But bikes aren't cars or motorcycles. The ratio of braking to
>accelleration is so vastly different that not braking in the
>turn is much more important than the line you take.
>
>Faster cornering is about getting the nerve not to touch the
>brakes and if braking is not involved,

There's more to it than that. See Code's book on cycling.

JT



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[[email protected]]

Booker C. Bense writes:

>>> As happens so often, Jobst is simultaneously brusque and right
>>> (like all of us, Jobst is sometimes wrong--but not in this case).
>>> Professional athletes are notoriously bad at describing the
>>> actions they're so good at performing. For example, Bernard
>>> Hinault used to advocate making small turns within a larger turn,
>>> thereby cornering faster. This makes little sense and is
>>> contraindicated by data collected from car and motorcycle racers
>>> (which are collected by instruments...telemetry is very important
>>> in those worlds). See Keith Code's books on motorcycle racing.

> _ But bikes aren't cars or motorcycles. The ratio of braking to
> accelleration is so vastly different that not braking in the turn is
> much more important than the line you take.

It's good to see that you have no idea about cornering on a bicycle.
Anyone who is fast in cornering brakes at the apex of most challenging
turns.

> Faster cornering is about getting the nerve not to touch the
> brakes and if braking is not involved, the sooner you start
> pedaling the faster you will be. Hinault's method may do that
> very well. The less time you spend turning the more time you can
> spend pedaling.

You say all this as though you understand the subject.

I take the curve shown in this picture often and am surely faster than
most riders with whom I have ridden there. How that is done is
explained in:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html

Beside that, Hinault or any other famous racer, don't win races by
fast descending because arriving at the bottom of a grade without your
team is a sure way of getting dropped. Frederico Bahamontes, one of
the worst descenders for hos timidness into curves and extra light body
weight (he was one of the great climbers), won the TdF in spite of
being close to the last rider at the bottom of descents.

http://www.cyclinghalloffame.com/riders/rider_bio.asp?rider_id=14

Jobst Brandt

 

[Mike Jacoubowsky]

> It was always fun to watch Pantani climb - he'd stand up, honking a
> huge gear, until he got his cadence up nice & high. Then, he'd sit and
> spin until the cadence dropped. Then, back up, cranking away again.
> Lather, rinse, repeat. I recall watching him do one of the classic
> tour climbs (Ventoux or L'Alpe), and thinking that he hadn't shifted
> once from bottom to top.

It may have been Ventoux in 2000. He'd drift between the front and back of
the pack frequently, sometimes even coming off the back completely before
revving it up again and heading towards the front. That plus his peculiar
way of standing while in the drops. Pretty strange to watch.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"SYJ" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
>
> Mike Reed wrote:
> ---snip---
>> Also, while climbing out of the saddle, you may need to shift 1 or 2
>> cogs to a smaller one, unless you were overgeared when seated. Standing
>> is a lower cadence position, and needs more pedal resistance to be
>> comfortable.
>>
>> -Mike
> ---/snip---
>
> It was always fun to watch Pantani climb - he'd stand up, honking a
> huge gear, until he got his cadence up nice & high. Then, he'd sit and
> spin until the cadence dropped. Then, back up, cranking away again.
> Lather, rinse, repeat. I recall watching him do one of the classic
> tour climbs (Ventoux or L'Alpe), and thinking that he hadn't shifted
> once from bottom to top.
>
> SYJ
>

 

[Booker C. Bense]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <[email protected]>,
<[email protected]> wrote:
>Booker C. Bense writes:
>
>>>> As happens so often, Jobst is simultaneously brusque and right
>>>> (like all of us, Jobst is sometimes wrong--but not in this case).
>>>> Professional athletes are notoriously bad at describing the
>>>> actions they're so good at performing. For example, Bernard
>>>> Hinault used to advocate making small turns within a larger turn,
>>>> thereby cornering faster. This makes little sense and is
>>>> contraindicated by data collected from car and motorcycle racers
>>>> (which are collected by instruments...telemetry is very important
>>>> in those worlds). See Keith Code's books on motorcycle racing.
>
>> _ But bikes aren't cars or motorcycles. The ratio of braking to
>> accelleration is so vastly different that not braking in the turn is
>> much more important than the line you take.
>
>It's good to see that you have no idea about cornering on a bicycle.
>Anyone who is fast in cornering brakes at the apex of most challenging
>turns.

_ I was thinking about criterium racing where the turns are
generally flat. At least to me, Hinault's advice makes
some sense in that context.

_ Booker C. Bense









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[Tuschinski]

[email protected] wrote:
>> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html> Jobst Brandt

Outside Pedal Down
It is often said that putting the outside pedal down in a curve
improves cornering. Although most experienced riders do this, it is not
because it has anything to do with traction. The reason is that it
enables the rider to unload the saddle while standing with little
effort on a locked knee, cushioning his weight on his ankle


Great article... but a very theoretical article leaving out two
extremely important race-facts

1. A good reason you put the outside leg down is because you don't want
to crash. In a really quick turn your pedal can touch the ground... the
effects can be spectacular ^^

2. In a criterium we practice not only to pedal as long as possible but
also to start pedalling again soon as possible, as the one who starts
pedalling corners faster (this is a gap in banking theory really
missing in the article!)

Also missing is a caution towards cobblestones. Cornering a cobbled
road can be causing a quick change of traction between front and
rear(the bumping, wich might cause loss of control if you brake both
sides (The wheel with least traction can lock up as there is no mass to
counter the brakes gripping the rim).

Rain makes this worse ^^


Lastly: cornering takes practice All this neat theory holds no
candle to experiencing a fast criterium (Kermiskoers!)

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"Tuschinski" <[email protected]> wrote:

> [email protected] wrote:
> >> http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html> Jobst Brandt
>
> Outside Pedal Down
> It is often said that putting the outside pedal down in a curve
> improves cornering. Although most experienced riders do this, it is not
> because it has anything to do with traction. The reason is that it
> enables the rider to unload the saddle while standing with little
> effort on a locked knee, cushioning his weight on his ankle
>
>
> Great article... but a very theoretical article leaving out two
> extremely important race-facts
>
> 1. A good reason you put the outside leg down is because you don't want
> to crash. In a really quick turn your pedal can touch the ground... the
> effects can be spectacular ^^
>
> 2. In a criterium we practice not only to pedal as long as possible but
> also to start pedalling again soon as possible, as the one who starts
> pedalling corners faster (this is a gap in banking theory really
> missing in the article!)
>
> Also missing is a caution towards cobblestones. Cornering a cobbled
> road can be causing a quick change of traction between front and
> rear(the bumping, wich might cause loss of control if you brake both
> sides (The wheel with least traction can lock up as there is no mass to
> counter the brakes gripping the rim).
>
> Rain makes this worse

What I like particularly about the article is that it told
me I _can_ brake in corners; it tells me exactly when and
how. I practice the method and it works!

The first law of fast cornering is to know what you will
be doing, set up ahead of time, and do not make any sudden
moves.

--
Michael Press

 

[Robert Chung]

[email protected] wrote:

> Sadly, I cannot cite any sources, but a few years ago a widely-read
> biomechanical study showed that professional cyclists ended up lifting
> their rising leg with force from the falling leg as this was more
> efficient than actually exerting a net upward force with the rising
> leg. Perhaps someone else can name the study...I'm feeling a bit lame
> for not being able to.

Perhaps you're thinking of Kautz et al., 1991, "Pedaling technique of
elite endurance cyclists," Int J Sport Biomech 7:29-53.

The data from that study are available here:
http://www.isbweb.org/data/

Here's a plot of the (averaged, single-leg) data that shows that crank
torque is positive even between BDC and TDC (i.e., between 180 and 360
degrees).
http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/kautz.png

 

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 18 May 2006 22:59:34 -0700, "Robert Chung"
<[email protected]> wrote:

>[email protected] wrote:
>
>> Sadly, I cannot cite any sources, but a few years ago a widely-read
>> biomechanical study showed that professional cyclists ended up lifting
>> their rising leg with force from the falling leg as this was more
>> efficient than actually exerting a net upward force with the rising
>> leg. Perhaps someone else can name the study...I'm feeling a bit lame
>> for not being able to.
>
>Perhaps you're thinking of Kautz et al., 1991, "Pedaling technique of
>elite endurance cyclists," Int J Sport Biomech 7:29-53.
>
>The data from that study are available here:
>http://www.isbweb.org/data/
>
>Here's a plot of the (averaged, single-leg) data that shows that crank
>torque is positive even between BDC and TDC (i.e., between 180 and 360
>degrees).
>http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/rbr/kautz.png

Dear Robert,

Nice link and nice graph.

Thanks,

Carl Fogel

 

[[email protected]]

mitosis wrote:

> Mix it up. If sitting suits you stay mostly seated and try to get into
> a rhythm. Standing occasionally relieves the muscles you use when
> seated until you feel like resuming the grind.

Well said, Mitosis.

Sorry you had to split. I dropped you on the cell phone as I was
crossing the Continental Divide.

- Kary O. Kinesis

 

[David Damerell]

Quoting Tuschinski <[email protected]>:
>[email protected] wrote:
>>>http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/descending.html> Jobst Brandt
>Great article... but a very theoretical article leaving out two
>extremely important race-facts
>1. A good reason you put the outside leg down is because you don't want
>to crash.

Er, no. Not crashing merely demands that the inside leg _not_ be down; the
feet could be level for that purpose.
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[[email protected]]

No kidding...how can high cadence be more efficent than low cadence?
Your muscles don't have time to perform all the biological functions
that are required for stamina. Racing/riding above 90rpm is absurd to
me. Sprinting might be of another category with different rules, but
if you plan on covering distance I'd think you should stick to what
gives your muscles maximum output with respect to stamina.

Randolf

 

[Mike Reed]

[email protected] wrote:
> No kidding...how can high cadence be more efficent than low cadence?
> Your muscles don't have time to perform all the biological functions
> that are required for stamina. Racing/riding above 90rpm is absurd to
> me. Sprinting might be of another category with different rules, but
> if you plan on covering distance I'd think you should stick to what
> gives your muscles maximum output with respect to stamina.
>
> Randolf

Lance's coaches theory is that you take the efficiency hit in trade for
resiliency. You just need a stronger cardio system to make up for it.
You can just refuel during the ride to make up for the inefficiency. If
a race ends with an uphill finish, your attacks are going to be much
snappier if your muscles aren't as tired as your competitors'.

It's also one part of how Kenyan runners do so well in marathons. They
shuffle-run with a short stride.

Efficiency is not the only consideration in bike and foot racing.

 

[Lou Holtman]

[email protected] wrote:
> No kidding...how can high cadence be more efficent than low cadence?

It isn't.

> Your muscles don't have time to perform all the biological functions
> that are required for stamina. Racing/riding above 90rpm is absurd to
> me.

You have a low limit then, but if it works for you don't bother.

Lou
--
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[John Forrest Tomlinson]

On 19 May 2006 08:35:33 -0700, [email protected] wrote:

>No kidding...how can high cadence be more efficent than low cadence?
>Your muscles don't have time to perform all the biological functions
>that are required for stamina. Racing/riding above 90rpm is absurd to
>me.

I would speculate you race at a very low level of ability. Or in
extremely long low-speed events.

JT

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[SYJ]

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
---snippage ensues---

> It may have been Ventoux in 2000.

the climb I'm thinking of was earlier - mid to late 90's, IIRC. Back
when I was signifcantly lighter, I managed to mimic MP's technique
somewhat effectively in the group rides I took part in...ahhh, the good
old days (when I was fit/light/not too busy to ride).

>That plus his peculiar
> way of standing while in the drops.

Actually a fairly comfortable position to climb in during the steeper
pitches, IMHO.

SYJ