General fitness, health and nutrition · Public discussion

Whine, whine whine....

Started by Mark Probert-February 27, 2004 · · Last activity · 10 posts · 398 views

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General fitness, health and nutrition
Published
27 February 2004
Last activity
3 March 2004
Original author
Mark Probert-February 27, 2004
Posts
10
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Public discussion
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  1. http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2585977

    (My comment: Ain't that just too bad..tough..now the liars, oops, I mean
    lawuers, wil either have to spend their own pounds and put thei kids at
    risk, or just give it up.)

    MMR Campaigners Vow to Continue Compensation Fight

    By John Aston, Cathy Gordon and Louise Barnett, PA News

    The parents of children allegedly damaged by the MMR vaccine tonight vowed
    to continue campaigning for compensation despite losing a court battle for
    funding.

    Their legal bid today suffered another blow when a High Court judge rejected
    an application for a judicial review of a decision to withdraw public
    funding to fight test cases.

    The decision to withdraw funds was taken by the Legal Services Commission
    (LSC) and upheld by the Funding Review Committee.

    Richard Follis, partner in solicitors firm Alexander Harris, representing
    hundreds of parents and their children, said they would consider whether
    there were grounds to appeal to the Court of Appeal.

    Mr Harris added: "We will also be giving urgent consideration to how the
    very serious concerns that exist about the safety of MMR can now be
    addressed.

    "Since this litigation will no longer be funded, and there is no sign that
    the Government or pharmaceutical companies are taking up the very serious
    questions that research in the litigation has posed, we as a law firm
    representing many grievously injured children will now have to consider
    whether we press the Government to properly investigate matters the drug
    companies have attempted to sweep under the carpet."

    Comment: Of course he would say that. he i sadvocating for his clients, and
    for his enormous fee.

    The MMR litigation has so far cost £15 million and the LSC believes it would
    cost another £10 million to bring to trial.

    Comment: How many austici children could have used those big pounds to help
    in their education, growth and development? What an incredible waste of
    resources.

    Today's judgment concerned the lead cases in a group action involving about
    1,000 claimants.

    Isabella Thomas, spokeswoman for Justice Awareness and Basic Support (JABS),
    said: "We will fight on to the end. This doesn't stop us because we have to
    have justice.

    "Parents are willing to sell their homes. Our children's lives are at stake.
    To watch your child in such severe pain is dreadful.

    Comment: Pain is not a symptom of autism. However, the perception of
    disability in a child is often a reflection of what they see from their
    parents. Sadly, these parents are making their children more disabled.

    "We do believe the public are very strongly behind us and we are asking for
    a public inquiry into the whole issue."

    Comment: Believe what you want. Drop this wasted litigation and get on with
    being a parent.

    Mrs Thomas, 46, from East Sussex, whose autistic sons Michael, and Terry,
    10, both had the MMR vaccine, said many of the claimants involved in the
    court battle were members of JABS, a support group set up for the carers of
    "vaccine damaged children".

    "These children have a life sentence and we need to find a way of protecting
    them against that awful vaccine strain that is in their systems," she said.

  2. "Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]>
    wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2585977

    Quoted message said:

    (My comment: Ain't that just too bad..tough..now the liars, oops, I


    mean

    Quoted message said:

    lawuers, wil either have to spend their own pounds and put thei kids


    at

    Quoted message said:

    risk, or just give it up.)

    Lawyers are liars? Hate to break it to you, Mark, but Glaxo-SmithKline
    (and anyone else targeted) uses attorneys , too. Are *they* liars? <g>

    Quoted message said:

    MMR Campaigners Vow to Continue Compensation Fight

    Quoted message said:

    By John Aston, Cathy Gordon and Louise Barnett, PA News

    Quoted message said:

    The parents of children allegedly damaged by the MMR vaccine tonight


    vowed

    Quoted message said:

    to continue campaigning for compensation despite losing a court battle


    for

    Quoted message said:

    funding.

    Quoted message said:

    Their legal bid today suffered another blow when a High Court judge


    rejected

    Quoted message said:

    an application for a judicial review of a decision to withdraw public
    funding to fight test cases.

    Huh? Gotta be a typo. Why would parents alleging MMR damage object to
    a decision not to allow public funds to be used to fight them? (Perhaps
    the author meant "to BRING [to trial] test cases."😉

    Quoted message said:

    The decision to withdraw funds was taken by the Legal Services


    Commission

    Quoted message said:

    (LSC) and upheld by the Funding Review Committee.

    Quoted message said:

    Richard Follis, partner in solicitors firm Alexander Harris,


    representing

    Quoted message said:

    hundreds of parents and their children, said they would consider


    whether

    Quoted message said:

    there were grounds to appeal to the Court of Appeal.

    Quoted message said:

    Mr Harris added: "We will also be giving urgent consideration to how


    the

    Quoted message said:

    very serious concerns that exist about the safety of MMR can now be
    addressed.

    Quoted message said:

    "Since this litigation will no longer be funded, and there is no sign


    that

    Quoted message said:

    the Government or pharmaceutical companies are taking up the very


    serious

    Quoted message said:

    questions that research in the litigation has posed, we as a law firm
    representing many grievously injured children will now have to


    consider

    Quoted message said:

    whether we press the Government to properly investigate matters the


    drug

    Quoted message said:

    companies have attempted to sweep under the carpet."

    Quoted message said:

    Comment: Of course he would say that. he i sadvocating for his


    clients, and

    Quoted message said:

    for his enormous fee.

    His "enormous fee"? I think his compensation would be rather paltry* if
    it came from public (tax) dollars.

    *You want to see paltry? Take a look at the US Vaccine Injury
    Compensation Program. Awards for attorneys' fees are downright
    niggardly! (Only a "reasonable" fee, as determined by the Special
    Master assigned to the case, is awarded for attorneys' services; no
    portion of the amount awarded to the victim is taken by the attorney(s);
    i.e., there's no contingency fee arrangement.) I know of attorneys/law
    firms that wouldn't touch a vaccine-injury case, and others that have
    only taken on such cases as a personal favor to the victim's family.

    Quoted message said:

    The MMR litigation has so far cost £15 million and the LSC believes it


    would

    Quoted message said:

    cost another £10 million to bring to trial.

    Ah, so it is to bring them to trial, not to fight them. Guess the UK
    has its share of crappy reporters, too. <g>

    Quoted message said:

    Comment: How many austici children could have used those big pounds to


    help

    Quoted message said:

    in their education, growth and development?

    Undoubtedly none. The funds "belong" to the LSC and are to be used,
    presumably at its discretion, on *lawsuits*.

    What an incredible waste of

    Quoted message said:

    resources.

    IYO.

    Quoted message said:

    Today's judgment concerned the lead cases in a group action involving


    about

    Quoted message said:

    1,000 claimants.

    Quoted message said:

    Isabella Thomas, spokeswoman for Justice Awareness and Basic Support


    (JABS),

    Quoted message said:

    said: "We will fight on to the end. This doesn't stop us because we


    have to

    Quoted message said:

    have justice.

    Quoted message said:

    "Parents are willing to sell their homes. Our children's lives are at


    stake.

    Quoted message said:

    To watch your child in such severe pain is dreadful.

    (1) So the parents ARE willing to use their own resources. (Nyah, nyah,
    nyah? <g>😉

    Quoted message said:

    Comment: Pain is not a symptom of autism. However, the perception of
    disability in a child is often a reflection of what they see from


    their

    Quoted message said:

    parents. Sadly, these parents are making their children more disabled.

    Uh, Mark, the article speaks of "allegedly damaged children"; the word
    "autism" isn't used. I'm sure you're aware of the allegation that MMR
    also induces (painful) bowel problems in some children.

    Quoted message said:

    "We do believe the public are very strongly behind us and we are


    asking for

    Quoted message said:

    a public inquiry into the whole issue."

    Maybe they'll get it. You may disagree with them, but can't really
    object if they're using *private* funding to bring pressure to bear on
    legislators/the courts.

    Quoted message said:

    Comment: Believe what you want. Drop this wasted litigation and get on


    with

    Quoted message said:

    being a parent.

    Any idea how much it costs to care for an autistic child?

    Quoted message said:

    Mrs Thomas, 46, from East Sussex, whose autistic sons Michael, and


    Terry,

    Quoted message said:

    10, both had the MMR vaccine, said many of the claimants involved in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    court battle were members of JABS, a support group set up for the


    carers of

    Quoted message said:

    "vaccine damaged children".

    Quoted message said:

    "These children have a life sentence and we need to find a way of


    protecting

    Quoted message said:

    them against that awful vaccine strain that is in their systems," she


    said.

  3. "JG" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]>
    wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2585977

    Quoted message said:

    (My comment: Ain't that just too bad..tough..now the liars, oops, I


    mean

    Quoted message said:

    lawuers, wil either have to spend their own pounds and put thei kids


    at

    Quoted message said:

    risk, or just give it up.)

    Lawyers are liars? Hate to break it to you, Mark, but Glaxo-SmithKline
    (and anyone else targeted) uses attorneys , too. Are *they* liars? <g>

    Vigorous advocates?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    MMR Campaigners Vow to Continue Compensation Fight

    Quoted message said:

    By John Aston, Cathy Gordon and Louise Barnett, PA News

    Quoted message said:

    The parents of children allegedly damaged by the MMR vaccine tonight


    vowed

    Quoted message said:

    to continue campaigning for compensation despite losing a court battle


    for

    Quoted message said:

    funding.

    Quoted message said:

    Their legal bid today suffered another blow when a High Court judge


    rejected

    Quoted message said:

    an application for a judicial review of a decision to withdraw public
    funding to fight test cases.

    Huh? Gotta be a typo. Why would parents alleging MMR damage object to
    a decision not to allow public funds to be used to fight them? (Perhaps
    the author meant "to BRING [to trial] test cases."😉

    When written from the plaintiffs POV, they are *fighting* for truth,
    justrice and the Brittish Way....The government in England finances some
    litigation. IOW taxpayers money going into this....

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The decision to withdraw funds was taken by the Legal Services


    Commission

    Quoted message said:

    (LSC) and upheld by the Funding Review Committee.

    Quoted message said:

    Richard Follis, partner in solicitors firm Alexander Harris,


    representing

    Quoted message said:

    hundreds of parents and their children, said they would consider


    whether

    Quoted message said:

    there were grounds to appeal to the Court of Appeal.

    Quoted message said:

    Mr Harris added: "We will also be giving urgent consideration to how


    the

    Quoted message said:

    very serious concerns that exist about the safety of MMR can now be
    addressed.

    Quoted message said:

    "Since this litigation will no longer be funded, and there is no sign


    that

    Quoted message said:

    the Government or pharmaceutical companies are taking up the very


    serious

    Quoted message said:

    questions that research in the litigation has posed, we as a law firm
    representing many grievously injured children will now have to


    consider

    Quoted message said:

    whether we press the Government to properly investigate matters the


    drug

    Quoted message said:

    companies have attempted to sweep under the carpet."

    Quoted message said:

    Comment: Of course he would say that. he i sadvocating for his


    clients, and

    Quoted message said:

    for his enormous fee.

    His "enormous fee"? I think his compensation would be rather paltry* if
    it came from public (tax) dollars.

    His fees would come from the success of the litigation...if it were
    successful. Ever see legal fees in large class actions?

    Quoted message said:

    *You want to see paltry? Take a look at the US Vaccine Injury
    Compensation Program. Awards for attorneys' fees are downright
    niggardly!

    Look at the fees allowed if an attorney helps a veteran before the DVA. It
    used to be $25.00 and is now 20% of retroactive benefits.

    (Only a "reasonable" fee, as determined by the Special

    Quoted message said:

    Master assigned to the case, is awarded for attorneys' services; no
    portion of the amount awarded to the victim is taken by the attorney(s);
    i.e., there's no contingency fee arrangement.) I know of attorneys/law
    firms that wouldn't touch a vaccine-injury case, and others that have
    only taken on such cases as a personal favor to the victim's family.

    Agreed. However, the article is about a UK case which is a class action,
    thus subject to a contingency fee arrangement.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The MMR litigation has so far cost £15 million and the LSC believes it


    would

    Quoted message said:

    cost another £10 million to bring to trial.

    Ah, so it is to bring them to trial, not to fight them. Guess the UK
    has its share of crappy reporters, too. <g>

    Yes, and, of course, it is taxpayers money.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Comment: How many austici children could have used those big pounds to


    help

    Quoted message said:

    in their education, growth and development?

    Undoubtedly none. The funds "belong" to the LSC and are to be used,
    presumably at its discretion, on *lawsuits*.

    Agreed. Sadly, a waste of money.

    Quoted message said:

    What an incredible waste of

    Quoted message said:

    resources.

    IYO.

    Yes. But, using taxpayers funds for this purpose?

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Today's judgment concerned the lead cases in a group action involving


    about

    Quoted message said:

    1,000 claimants.

    Quoted message said:

    Isabella Thomas, spokeswoman for Justice Awareness and Basic Support


    (JABS),

    Quoted message said:

    said: "We will fight on to the end. This doesn't stop us because we


    have to

    Quoted message said:

    have justice.

    Quoted message said:

    "Parents are willing to sell their homes. Our children's lives are at


    stake.

    Quoted message said:

    To watch your child in such severe pain is dreadful.

    (1) So the parents ARE willing to use their own resources. (Nyah, nyah,
    nyah? <g>😉

    For invasive testing with a medical risk.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Comment: Pain is not a symptom of autism. However, the perception of
    disability in a child is often a reflection of what they see from


    their

    Quoted message said:

    parents. Sadly, these parents are making their children more disabled.

    Uh, Mark, the article speaks of "allegedly damaged children"; the word
    "autism" isn't used. I'm sure you're aware of the allegation that MMR
    also induces (painful) bowel problems in some children.

    Agreed. However, I am familiar with this case and it is autism they are
    talking about. See below...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "We do believe the public are very strongly behind us and we are


    asking for

    Quoted message said:

    a public inquiry into the whole issue."

    Maybe they'll get it. You may disagree with them, but can't really
    object if they're using *private* funding to bring pressure to bear on
    legislators/the courts.

    They are using taxpayer funds.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Comment: Believe what you want. Drop this wasted litigation and get on


    with

    Quoted message said:

    being a parent.

    Any idea how much it costs to care for an autistic child?

    Since I have a child with CP, I have a fairly good idea. His last custom
    wheelchair was $8000 and there is no motor...his school costs over $15K per
    year..and the house modifications we did a few years ago were over $60K.

    Making a van accessible for a wheelchair is $19K....

    I hope you agree that I have a fiar idea of what these things cost money
    wise.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Mrs Thomas, 46, from East Sussex, whose autistic sons Michael, and


    Terry,

    Quoted message said:

    10, both had the MMR vaccine, said many of the claimants involved in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    court battle were members of JABS, a support group set up for the


    carers of

    Quoted message said:

    "vaccine damaged children".

    Quoted message said:

    "These children have a life sentence and we need to find a way of


    protecting

    Quoted message said:

    them against that awful vaccine strain that is in their systems," she


    said.

  4. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Whine, whine whine....
    From: "JG" [email hidden]
    Date: 2/27/2004 3:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    "Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]>
    wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2585977

    Quoted message said:

    (My comment: Ain't that just too bad..tough..now the liars, oops, I


    mean

    Quoted message said:

    lawuers, wil either have to spend their own pounds and put thei kids


    at

    Quoted message said:

    risk, or just give it up.)

    Pathetic. Mark has always called parents will damaged kids from vaccines
    *whiners*

    This is the results of organized medicine and EGO.

    Simply evil.

    Jan

    Quoted message said:

    Lawyers are liars? Hate to break it to you, Mark, but Glaxo-SmithKline
    (and anyone else targeted) uses attorneys , too. Are *they* liars? <g>

    Quoted message said:

    MMR Campaigners Vow to Continue Compensation Fight

    Quoted message said:

    By John Aston, Cathy Gordon and Louise Barnett, PA News

    Quoted message said:

    The parents of children allegedly damaged by the MMR vaccine tonight


    vowed

    Quoted message said:

    to continue campaigning for compensation despite losing a court battle


    for

    Quoted message said:

    funding.

    Quoted message said:

    Their legal bid today suffered another blow when a High Court judge


    rejected

    Quoted message said:

    an application for a judicial review of a decision to withdraw public
    funding to fight test cases.

    Huh? Gotta be a typo. Why would parents alleging MMR damage object to
    a decision not to allow public funds to be used to fight them? (Perhaps
    the author meant "to BRING [to trial] test cases."😉

    Quoted message said:

    The decision to withdraw funds was taken by the Legal Services


    Commission

    Quoted message said:

    (LSC) and upheld by the Funding Review Committee.

    Quoted message said:

    Richard Follis, partner in solicitors firm Alexander Harris,


    representing

    Quoted message said:

    hundreds of parents and their children, said they would consider


    whether

    Quoted message said:

    there were grounds to appeal to the Court of Appeal.

    Quoted message said:

    Mr Harris added: "We will also be giving urgent consideration to how


    the

    Quoted message said:

    very serious concerns that exist about the safety of MMR can now be
    addressed.

    Quoted message said:

    "Since this litigation will no longer be funded, and there is no sign


    that

    Quoted message said:

    the Government or pharmaceutical companies are taking up the very


    serious

    Quoted message said:

    questions that research in the litigation has posed, we as a law firm
    representing many grievously injured children will now have to


    consider

    Quoted message said:

    whether we press the Government to properly investigate matters the


    drug

    Quoted message said:

    companies have attempted to sweep under the carpet."

    Quoted message said:

    Comment: Of course he would say that. he i sadvocating for his


    clients, and

    Quoted message said:

    for his enormous fee.

    His "enormous fee"? I think his compensation would be rather paltry* if
    it came from public (tax) dollars.

    *You want to see paltry? Take a look at the US Vaccine Injury
    Compensation Program. Awards for attorneys' fees are downright
    niggardly! (Only a "reasonable" fee, as determined by the Special
    Master assigned to the case, is awarded for attorneys' services; no
    portion of the amount awarded to the victim is taken by the attorney(s);
    i.e., there's no contingency fee arrangement.) I know of attorneys/law
    firms that wouldn't touch a vaccine-injury case, and others that have
    only taken on such cases as a personal favor to the victim's family.

    Quoted message said:

    The MMR litigation has so far cost £15 million and the LSC believes it


    would

    Quoted message said:

    cost another £10 million to bring to trial.

    Ah, so it is to bring them to trial, not to fight them. Guess the UK
    has its share of crappy reporters, too. <g>

    Quoted message said:

    Comment: How many austici children could have used those big pounds to


    help

    Quoted message said:

    in their education, growth and development?

    Undoubtedly none. The funds "belong" to the LSC and are to be used,
    presumably at its discretion, on *lawsuits*.

    What an incredible waste of

    Quoted message said:

    resources.

    IYO.

    Quoted message said:

    Today's judgment concerned the lead cases in a group action involving


    about

    Quoted message said:

    1,000 claimants.

    Quoted message said:

    Isabella Thomas, spokeswoman for Justice Awareness and Basic Support


    (JABS),

    Quoted message said:

    said: "We will fight on to the end. This doesn't stop us because we


    have to

    Quoted message said:

    have justice.

    Quoted message said:

    "Parents are willing to sell their homes. Our children's lives are at


    stake.

    Quoted message said:

    To watch your child in such severe pain is dreadful.

    (1) So the parents ARE willing to use their own resources. (Nyah, nyah,
    nyah? <g>😉

    Quoted message said:

    Comment: Pain is not a symptom of autism. However, the perception of
    disability in a child is often a reflection of what they see from


    their

    Quoted message said:

    parents. Sadly, these parents are making their children more disabled.

    Uh, Mark, the article speaks of "allegedly damaged children"; the word
    "autism" isn't used. I'm sure you're aware of the allegation that MMR
    also induces (painful) bowel problems in some children.

    Quoted message said:

    "We do believe the public are very strongly behind us and we are


    asking for

    Quoted message said:

    a public inquiry into the whole issue."

    Maybe they'll get it. You may disagree with them, but can't really
    object if they're using *private* funding to bring pressure to bear on
    legislators/the courts.

    Quoted message said:

    Comment: Believe what you want. Drop this wasted litigation and get on


    with

    Quoted message said:

    being a parent.

    Any idea how much it costs to care for an autistic child?

    Quoted message said:

    Mrs Thomas, 46, from East Sussex, whose autistic sons Michael, and


    Terry,

    Quoted message said:

    10, both had the MMR vaccine, said many of the claimants involved in


    the

    Quoted message said:

    court battle were members of JABS, a support group set up for the


    carers of

    Quoted message said:

    "vaccine damaged children".

    Quoted message said:

    "These children have a life sentence and we need to find a way of


    protecting

    Quoted message said:

    them against that awful vaccine strain that is in their systems," she


    said.

  5. "Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Subject: Re: Whine, whine whine....
    From: "JG" [email hidden]
    Date: 2/27/2004 3:45 PM Pacific Standard Time
    Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    "Mark Probert-February 27, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]>
    wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=2585977

    Quoted message said:

    (My comment: Ain't that just too bad..tough..now the liars, oops, I


    mean

    Quoted message said:

    lawuers, wil either have to spend their own pounds and put thei kids


    at

    Quoted message said:

    risk, or just give it up.)

    Pathetic. Mark has always called parents will damaged kids from vaccines
    *whiners*

    This is the results of organized medicine and EGO.

    Simply evil.

    Yes, you are simply evil for taking my words and thoughts out of context.
    and, then you post your derogatory comments about me from behind your
    killfile so you cannot see my responses BECAUSE YOU CANNOT HANDLE THE TRUTH!

    When you develop a shred of intellectual honesty, I will let you know.

    Snip.

  6. << When you develop a shred of intellectual honesty, I will let you know. >>

    Yes, Marla...you do just that.

    "If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance." (Jessie Winchester).

  7. "DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    << When you develop a shred of intellectual honesty, I will let you know.

    Quoted message said:

    Yes, Marla...you do just that.

    How pathetic.

    How typical of your braincleansed self.

  8. << > Yes, Marla...you do just that.

    How pathetic.

    How typical of your braincleansed self. >>

    Why are you pointing your fingers at me? As I have understood "Marla Maples"
    was you in drag, was it not that infilitrated a women's newsgroup....

    Whomever "Marla Maples" is/was, is truly the pathetic party.

    "If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance." (Jessie Winchester).

  9. "DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    << > Yes, Marla...you do just that.

    How pathetic.

    How typical of your braincleansed self. >>

    Why are you pointing your fingers at me? ...............

    Aren't you accustomed to that by now?

    carabelli

  10. "DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    << > Yes, Marla...you do just that.

    How pathetic.

    How typical of your braincleansed self. >>

    Why are you pointing your fingers at me? As I have understood "Marla


    Maples"

    Quoted message said:

    was you in drag, was it not that infilitrated a women's newsgroup....

    As Ihave said, I do not substatively discuss any allegations of that sick
    and deranged woman. By you and Jan posting any reference to her, you take
    advantage of my stated desire to totally disengage from her. Thus, you and
    Jan are pathetic.

    Quoted message said:

    Whomever "Marla Maples" is/was, is truly the pathetic party.

    See above.

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