Young cyclist killed



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"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> ANd this morning I'm trying to buy a new bike for my seven-year-old. Hard work - they all seem to
> be made of an alloy of steel and depleted uranium.
>
> Guy
> ===
> May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
> http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk

I bought this one for my (almost) seven-year-old. She loves it.
http://www.feltracing.com/2004_bikes/f24.html The stock chainring sizes are ridiculous for a
youngster, so I had the shop change them to 34-39. You might want to have a look.
 
"frkrygow" <"frkrygow"@omitcc.ysu.edu> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Brent Hugh wrote:
>
> > Just off the top of my head, I can think of three pedestrians that
> > were killed this way in Missouri over the past year or two--two of these young kids killed by
> > school buses.
>
> In our city, we had a kid on a bike killed exactly that way, about two years ago. In that case, it
> was the back wheels of a large truck.

Here's a little more about this type of accident, from a paper by James M. Green on the subject.
Since even my excerpts are rather long, here is the executive summary:

1. The large rotating wheels of buses & large trucks actually create a force that can suck
cyclists/pedestrians right into the wheel (via the Bernoulli principle)
2. There is a simple device, quite new to the market, that counteracts the sucking force, actually
turning it into a slightly repelling force. It also helps with knockdown type accidents with the
large wheels while the buses are turning.
3. The device is highly effective.
4. This is another good reason to keep FAR away from the sides of buses/trucks while riding.

Paper excerpts:
---
Recent risk management efforts at various transit authorities [2] have revealed a prevalent type of
accident from transit vehicles interacting with either cyclists or pedestrians. The predominant
accident type seems to be pedestrians or cyclists being pulled into the bus-wheel, as opposed to
individuals being struck by the vehicle body [3]. Further questioning of transit personnel indicates
that, in most cases, the accidents occur from the rotating bus transit wheel on the bus as it passes
the individual as opposed to the cyclist or pedestrian running into the stationary transit vehicle
or tire. Surprisingly, the type of accident where the bus strikes the cyclist or pedestrian in an
area other than on the rotating wheel is almost negligible.
. . . By whatever analysis method that is used, there is a clear problem with these types of
accidents. Of particular interest is the fact that most points of impact onto the bus body appear
to occur at the point of the rotating wheel in the bus wheel well. . . . More probably than not,
other types of motor vehicles, such as trucks, would also tend to have a high degree of cyclist
or pedestrian accident prevalence at wheel wells. . . .
--

The author gives an argument that a bus passing a cyclist/pedestrian
actually creates a "suction" (via Bernoulli's principle) that is
greatest at the point of the wheel, that tends to pull a cyclist or
pedestrian right into the bus, and preferentially at the wheel.

--
By having a curved wheel guard at the forward leading edge of the
transit bus wheel well, a net outward pressure away from the direction
of travel of the bus is produced. This results in the complete
eliminationof the low-pressure gradient that would draw the cyclist or
pedestrian into the high velocity-rotating wheel. More importantly,
the curvature of the guard would act like an airplane wing and
literally be able to push the cyclist or pedestrian out of the path of
travel of the transit bus.
--

The article gives a diagram of such a guard.

--
. . . field trials do support the ability of this design to
physically move a subject from the path of travel. This is helpful in
instances where Bernoulli's principal is not a causal factor, as when
transit buses turn into pedestrians or cyclists. In those instances,
the guard must act much like the cowcatcher on a train and physically
move the individual from the path of the rotating wheel . . .

[Beside the Bernoulli principle "sucking"] the bus physically turning
into the path of an accident victim should be considered. Of equal
importance in the analysis is the fact that remedial measures are
easily available to prevent these accidents. The illustrated S-1 Gard
(generic name), see Figure 2, has been implemented in several
municipality's. Thus far, in those municipalities that have initiated
this program the accident rate has decreased from several incidents
per year to zero.
--

The paper states that use of these guards is in its "infancy" so
perhaps I was wrong that such guards are already being used in other
countries (though I'm quite certain that I've read that some sort of
guard or shield--perhaps not this exact same sort--is required by law
in some countries, but I can't find the sources where I read that now,
and perhaps they were wrong . . . ).

You can read the full paper, including diagrams and footnotes, in PDF
form at

http://www.bikereconstruction.com/EngineeringPapers/S-1Gard%20Paper.pdf

Or follow this nasty long link for a google cache (HTML):

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:p6dqM-dKczoJ:www.bikereconstruction.com/EngineeringPapers/S-1Gard%2520Paper.pdf+%22wheel+guard%22++pedestrian&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

For the benefit of Bob I'll point out in advance that he's right that
this type of shield has no chance of stopping the kind of accident
that started this thread (kid riding out of the driveway straight into
the side of a truck) but I think it's interesting nonetheless.
"Several incidents a year to zero" is pretty impressive for a
(relatively) inexpensive and simple device.

--Brent
bhugh [at] mwsc.edu
www.MoBikeFed.org
 
On 29 Jan 2004 10:04:02 -0800, [email protected] (Brent Hugh) wrote:
>2. There is a simple device, quite new to the market, that counteracts the sucking force, actually
> turning it into a slightly repelling force.

I'm only familiar with one piece of equipment that can turn sucking force into blowing...
--
Rick Onanian
 
[email protected] (Brent Hugh) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> 1. The large rotating wheels of buses & large trucks actually create a force that can suck
> cyclists/pedestrians right into the wheel (via the Bernoulli principle)
> 2. There is a simple device, quite new to the market, that counteracts the sucking force,
> actually turning it into a slightly repelling force. It also helps with knockdown type
> accidents with the large wheels while the buses are turning.
> 3. The device is highly effective.
> 4. This is another good reason to keep FAR away from the sides of buses/trucks while riding.

On reflection I would add these thoughts:

* This could explain (and change the idea of what was *really* responsible for) some accidents--for
instance, those of the type, "why did that idiot cyclist swerve right into the side of a
bus/truck." Of course, they didn't swerve, they were sucked off balance by a blast of wind due to
the Bernoulli effect. For instance, a small boy who was run over by a bus in St. Louis recently
supposedly "stepped off the curb too soon". There's a good chance he didn't "step" off at all, but
rather was pulled off balance by the very bus that ran him over, which was passing by very close.
The "suction" effect tending to pull people straight into the rear wheel area is quite strong
starting at bus/truck speeds as low as 10 MPH.

* This gives another reason to lobby school bus companies, metro bus companies, etc., to really
educate their drivers about driving near pedestrians & cyclists. They need to give bikes/peds some
real room, even more than passenger cars need to. They shouldn't just be brushing by cyclists or
pedestrians, putting them in grave danger of being sucked off balance and falling into the rear
wheel area.

* By the same token it seems like this type of info ought to be in commercial drivers license
manuals so that bus/truck drivers can compensate for potential dangerous situations in
their driving.

* In the interest of cyclist (and pedestrian) safety It seems quite worthwhile to lobby school bus
companies, transit bus companies, & large truck companies to install such devices.

All this of course is assuming this guy is really onto something and not just whitewashing some data
to sell a product. But his analysis makes a lot of sense to me . . .

http://www.bikereconstruction.com/EngineeringPapers/S-1Gard%20Paper.pdf

--Brent bhugh [at] mwsc.edu www.MoBikeFed.org
 
"Jeff" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Brent Hugh" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > Another thing this incident reminds me of, is that in many civilized countries, large trucks are
> > required to have shields that prevent a pedestrian or cyclist (or even a car) from going
> > underneath the middle of the vehicle between the front and rear wheels, where they can be
> > crushed by the rear wheels.
>
> Howdy.
>
> Never seen such a shield, and I'm reasonably well-travelled. Care to list some of the countries?

The "shield" or sideguard that is required in some countries on certain heavy trucks is somewhat
different than the "cowcatcher" that we have been discussing elsewhere on this thread. The cowcather
is a relatively small thing that installs just in front of the passenger side rear wheel. It is sold
in the US under the name S-1 Gard (see s1gard.com). The S-1 Gard will shove people out of the way of
the rear tire to a degree, and also sliminates the Bernoulli Effect that can such you straight into
the rear tire.

The sideguards that are required in Europe & Japan (according to the article quoted below) are more
along the lines of side bumpers. The are designed to help keep pedestrians, cyclists, scooterists,
and motorcyclists out from underneath heavy truck carriages but also to help with side underrun
collisions involving automobiles:

--
In Japan and Europe, because of the immense amount of bicycle and
motor scooter traffic, semitrailers have side underride guards. . . .
Sideguards are placed on tanker trucks as well . . .

when the big rigs make right turns, they usually make a wide sweep,
first to the left, then to the right. An unsuspecting motorist [or
cyclist], thinking the rig is making a left turn, starts to pass on
the right only to become swallowed up by the trailer.

U.S. trailer manufacturers and trucking companies have long been aware
of the protection and safety benefits that side rails provide but have
successfully defeated any legislation mandating the implementation of
the devices.

In some recent crash tests, it was shown that side rails indeed
prevent cars from underriding even at nearly 90 degrees.
(See http://www.underridenetwork.org/treatise.html)
--

For some photos of this kind of sideguard, see

http://www.underridenetwork.org/images/badger2.jpeg
http://www.agrartechnik-sachsen.de/reparaturen/images/lkw.gif
http://www.wglogistik.ch/bilder/content/lkw.jpg
http://www.die-trucker-seite.de/assets/images/mein-lkw-1.jpg

--Brent
bhugh [at] mwsc.edu
www.MoBikeFed.org
 
On 29 Jan 2004 17:55:19 -0800, [email protected] (Brent Hugh) wrote:

>The S-1 Gard will shove people out of the way of the rear tire to a degree, and also sliminates the
>Bernoulli Effect that can such you straight into the rear tire.

I'm missing something. This effect is only at low speeds where there are pedestrians and slow speed
cyclists? Because for a good number of years I rode damn close to Intermountain Peterbilts on Route
50 in Kansas and at anything between 50 mph and 70 mph I noticed no such effects.

OTOH, it is a good developer of bike handling skills when there is 40 mph cross wind and the trucks
alternately block the wind and then let it hit you along with the back draft. There is an
interesting effect right at where the back draft yields to those 40 mph prairie winds, but Benoulli
has nothing to do with it.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
 
"frkrygow" <"frkrygow"@omitcc.ysu.edu> wrote:

>Brent Hugh wrote:
>
>He says it will
>> produce a pressure wave, etc. etc. but doesn't give any measurements or even a serious argument
>> showing that it actually does so.
>
>And I can't see how it's possible, at any reasonable speed. Now on a near-supersonic bus...

I verified that a city bus has a nice little low pressure area *behind* it this morning. I was on
my MTB with slicks and panniers, and caught one going up a reasonable hill (College where it
turns north from Curry for those of you who live in the Phoenix east valley and who may know
where that is).

There was enough low pressure back there that I was able to spin my little brains out on his
bumper, but finally blew up near the top of the hill (after a 40mph carbon-monoxide drenched
virtual spin class). Haven't noticed much of a low pressure area from any busses or trucks passing
me lately though...

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles http://www.habcycles.com Home of the $695 ti frame
 
>I've been passed by at least hundreds of buses, and certainly thousands of large trucks. Some
>of them passed quite close. I _certainly_ haven't noticed anything sucking me toward any part
>of the bus.

>Really, I find the idea laughable.

I don't know about the sucking part, but my bike definitely becomes unstable when close passed by a
truck at speed. I don't notice the claimed effect at a low speed differential, but when a semi does
a close pass at 50 mph I can feel it in terms of handling requirements.

There's definitely a turbulence effect in airflow along the side of a long vehicle that is
independant of crosswind blocking, IMHO.

I'd say this is vortices being spun off from the compressed air ahead of the vehicle, but I'm
guessing here.

Buses aren't noticeably aerodynamic. Nor are they fast, not city buses, anyway.

But a good semi will reliably generate an air pressure footprint at speed, regardless. You can
experience this on a bicycle at no charge.

I'm not an engineer, but I've ridden VA Route 15.

--

_______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
the Texas Elvis"------------------
__________306.350.357.38>>[email protected]__________
 
"frkrygow" <"frkrygow"@omitcc.ysu.edu> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Brent Hugh wrote:

> I've been passed by at least hundreds of buses, and certainly thousands of large trucks. Some of
> them passed quite close. I _certainly_ haven't noticed anything sucking me toward any part of
> the bus.
>
> Really, I find the idea laughable.

The closer I read his paper the more I have to agree with you that it really is quite a bunch of BS.
He's basically just blowing smoke. As you pointed out, his calculation that the wheel is moving at
2.5 times the speed of the bus is absurd and he uses the term "inverse pressure" to sort of
insinuate a kind of pressure that might pull you into the bus when (as you said) he's actually
talking about 1/p, which is something entirely different. And meaningless.

How he even got this equation for 1/p is pretty hard to explain, since all he had to do to solve for
p was subtract a couple of terms from both sides of the equation, and instead of doing that he
divided and did some other funky and incomprehensible things in order to come up with an equation
that actually does the opposite of what he says it does . . .

http://www.bikereconstruction.com/EngineeringPapers/S-1Gard%20Paper.pdf

Well, better luck next time.

We're still left with the idea that the thing might be able to scrape you out of the way of
the wheel:

http://www.s1gard.com/

But when they're blowing a line of BS so hard out one side of the mouth, it gets harder & harder to
take the other side seriously, either . . .

--Brent bhugh [at] mwsc.edu www.MoBikeFed.org
 
"frkrygow" <"frkrygow"@omitcc.ysu.edu> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> Brent Hugh wrote:

> I've been passed by at least hundreds of buses, and certainly thousands of large trucks. Some of
> them passed quite close. I _certainly_ haven't noticed anything sucking me toward any part of
> the bus.
>
> Really, I find the idea laughable.

Well, just for laughs, I used the "real" Bernoulli equations (as opposed to the ones Mr. Green
mangled) to calculate the amount of pressure & force a person might feel due to the Bernoulli effect
of a truck whooshing by, picking some extreme cases just to see if the idea might have any possible
merit whatsoever. I've completely neglected the idea that the wheel might create some special
bernoulli force of its own, because I have no idea whatsoever how to calculate that.

Let's say you have a 34MPH (15 meter/second) wind whooshing by on one side of you and a 0MPH wind on
the other side. Assume that the effective surface area of you plus your bike is 1 square meter (a
semi-reasonable figure for a person & a bike, counting the effective surface area of the side-
profile). Result: 141 pascals pressure differential. Multiplying this by the 1 m^2 gives 141
newtons. That equals about 0.02 PSI and about 31.5 pounds of force pushing you in towards the bus.
That's more than a person might think--but also I don't know how one would experience anything close
to this in real life in the type of situation we're talking about--maybe by standing two inches away
from the side of a bus that is traveling at 34MPH?

BTW, making the situation more realistic by assuming 34 MPH on one side of you and, say, 15 MPH on
the other side makes relatively little difference: the pressure differential is still 113 pascals.
With our 1-meter square surface area that leads to 25.4 pounds of force.

A yet more realistic situation for cyclists would be that you are 2 or 3 **feet**, not inches, from
the bus even on a *very* close pass. At that distance I would guess that the speed of the gust from
the bus wouldn't be very different from one side of you to the other (the force from the Bernoulli
effect comes from having wind of two different speeds on two different sides of you--so if the speed
is the same on both sides, there is no pressure differential and so, no force).

Let's just say that a bus going 30 MPH wooshes by you kind of close and what you feel is a whoosh
that is going 18 MPH on the side of you nearest the bus and only 15 MPH on the opposite side. Now we
get a pressure differential of 16 pascals and (assuming a surface area of 1 square meter) a force of
16 newtons. That is .0023 PSI and 3.6 pounds.

You're welcome to find that laughable if you want, Frank . . .

Just for the fun of it, let's go for about the maximum that's even theoretically possible for the
Bernoulli effect from a truck/bus under anything resembling normal everyday conditions: 65MPH wind
on one side, 0MPH on the other. That gives 527 pascal (.076 PSI) and, assuming a 1 square meter
surface area, 527 newtons (118 pounds of force) pulling you in towards the bus.

Conclusion: Don't stand 3 inches from a truck or a bus as it passes you at 65 MPH. (OK, I guess we
didn't need any calculations to tell us that).

Again--it's clear by now that Mr. Green is a kook who can't do a jr. high school algebra problem
correctly, but the Bernoulli effect is quite real. Don't take my word for it, just hold two pieces
of paper an inch or two apart and blow between them. Watch them get sucked in towards each other.
That's the Bernoulli effect . . .

--Brent bhugh[at]mwsc.edu www.MoBikeFed.org

Appendix (for the curious)
--------------------------
The Bernoulli equations boil down to this, to calculate the pressure differential between two areas
of a fluid moving at two different velocities:

delta p = r/2 (v2^2 - v1^2)

(We're assuming constant density and that both areas under consideration are at the same height;
that makes several terms of the original Bernoulli equation drop out.)

delta p is the difference in pressure.

r (rho) is the density of the fluid, in this case the density of air at sea level, 1.25 kg/m^3

v1, v2 are the two velocities of the fluid (the wind speeds)

Sample calculation:

We let v2=15m/s (approx 34 MPH) and v1=0 and calculate:

delta p = (1.25kg/m^3) /2 * ((15m/s)^2 - 0^2)
= .625 kg/m^3 * (225 m^2/s^2) 141 kg/(m s^2) 141 pascals
 
Brent Hugh wrote:

> Just for the fun of it, let's go for about the maximum that's even theoretically possible for
> the Bernoulli effect from a truck/bus under anything resembling normal everyday conditions:
> 65MPH wind on one side, 0MPH on the other. That gives 527 pascal (.076 PSI) and, assuming a 1
> square meter surface area, 527 newtons (118 pounds of force) pulling you in towards the bus.
>
> Conclusion: Don't stand 3 inches from a truck or a bus as it passes you at 65 MPH. (OK, I guess
> we didn't need any calculations to tell us that).

When doing such calculations, keep in mind that the pressure difference you might calculate is not
directly applied to the body & bike combination.

IOW, any pressure difference is not applied to you like a sealed suction cup. Instead, you'd have a
low pressure area a couple feet to your left. It pulls on the air around you, not directly on you.
The air around you may rush leftward to equalize that pressure, but the actual force on your body is
almost entirely the air resistance (or drag) in the lateral direction. That's not going to be much.

>
> Again--it's clear by now that Mr. Green is a kook who can't do a jr. high school algebra problem
> correctly, but the Bernoulli effect is quite real. Don't take my word for it, just hold two pieces
> of paper an inch or two apart and blow between them. Watch them get sucked in towards each other.
> That's the Bernoulli effect . . .

I taught a course in elementary fluid mechanics for quite a few years. My students have done lots of
experiments to verify Bernoulli's equation. There's no doubt it's real. All I'm saying is, there's
no way a bus tire can turn it into a cyclist-eating vacuum cleaner. And there's also no way the
little bumper thing will produce a pressure wave to counter the non-existent vacuum.

I am, however, in favor of side guards on trucks, etc. Long vehicles turning do seem to be a special
hazard for cylcists and peds - but it's a simple run-em-over type of problem, not a vacuum effect.

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, omit what's between "at" and "cc"]
 
Eric S. Sande wrote:

> I don't know about the sucking part, but my bike definitely becomes unstable when close passed by
> a truck at speed. I don't notice the claimed effect at a low speed differential, but when a semi
> does a close pass at 50 mph I can feel it in terms of handling requirements.
>
> There's definitely a turbulence effect in airflow along the side of a long vehicle that is
> independant of crosswind blocking, IMHO.
>
> I'd say this is vortices being spun off from the compressed air ahead of the vehicle, but I'm
> guessing here.

In my opinion, you're guessing right. The "bow wave" that pushes off the front is easy to visualize
and feel. But bluff (not streamlined) bodies like trucks leave a trail of vortices behind them
(Karmann vortices) like a chain of little whirlwinds. The exact shape, size and strength of these
would depend on little details of the vehicle shape, and they're not so easy to visualize. IMO it's
these little whirlwinds that cyclists sometimes feel as a push to the left.

It may be that, under certain circumstances, the bow wave may push right; the cyclist might correct
left at the same time a vortex pushes left, and the cyclist might get a scare. I've been warned
about that, but never experienced it.

We did a fully-loaded, four-panniers-each coast to coast ride last year. In general, trucks were
our friends. I just asked my wife, and she has some vague memory of slight jostling on a windy day,
but as she says, it obviously wasn't dramatic, and that's even with the four panniers for the air
to push on.

OTOH, the couple seconds of "tailwind" or draft provided by each truck was nice. My daughter kept
lobbying for riding busier highways because of it!

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, omit what's between "at" and "cc"]
 
[email protected] (Tom Keats) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> In article <[email protected]>, "Eric S. Sande" <[email protected]> writes:
> >
> > I don't know about the sucking part, but my bike definitely becomes unstable when close passed
> > by a truck at speed. I don't notice the claimed effect at a low speed differential, but when a
> > semi does a close pass at 50 mph I can feel it in terms of handling requirements.
>
> If anybody's interested, here's a li'l description of wind effects from passing trucks, from:
> http://www.gvcc.bc.ca/ridingwithray/ridingwithrayT.htm
>
> "Truck wind blasts When a large truck passes a cyclist there is a significant bow wave that pushes
> the rider forward and to the right. This is a wonderful boost but it is followed by the slight
> suction from behind the cab and the larger suction behind the trailer. Riders leaning into the
> blast can overcompensate and get cot in the suction. When you hear a truck coming, just relax into
> the blast without leaning and you won't be bothered by the section. This is a particular problem
> when there is a strong cross wind from the left. A rider compensating for the wind leans more into
> the truck blast. The sudden loss of the wind and the suction pulls the rider under the trailer.
> This is suspected to have killed a Japanese cyclist attempting to ride across Canada a few years
> ago. Thousands of large trucks have passed me on many a lonely open road. The drivers are
> professionals and have usually treated me with curtsy and consideration."
>
> Mind you, I've never had a truck driver curtsey at me.
>
>
> cheers, Tom

Those muthas never curtsey at anyone! Howsomeever, I've got to give the friendly wave to the
professional semi-trailer drivers out there. They do such a good job, in my opinion. Most of my
experience is cycling on city streets. A few of those are designated truck routes, and I usually
ride them every day. My experience is, the tractor trailer drivers are simply professional drivers.
They communicate with lights and noise, they (rarely) squeeze the cyclist, and are predictable in
their moves. I like them!

Straight truck drivers, OTOH, mainly need to go back to school - just one person's opinion ;) . They
far too often drive like what they are: poorly educated wannabees.

I'm thinking I need to learn what those straight drivers need in order to get their ticket....
later, Bernie
 
Zoot Katz <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> 26 Jan 2004 02:30:59 GMT,
> <[email protected]>, [email protected] (Hunrobe) wrote:
>
> Comparing kids to dogs and substituting bicycles for garbage trucks doesn't help make your point
> anything but contextually vague.
>
> >My reply then remains the same, "Where were the *parents*?"
>
> Maybe preparing dinner for some of her other seven kids?
>
> My accusation remains the same, I blame the mores of a car-sick society that accepts the daily
> death toll.

You have to laugh at people like the above. Sorry if a child run or bike out in front of a moving
car/van/truck without warning it is not the driver fault, be that driver license or not.

Yes cars are evil therefore drivers are always at fault in any accidence between a car and a
bike rider.

Bill Meredith

>
> >>Disgusting apologist pukes can all go suck your beloved tailpipes.
> >
> >Zoot, I've tried to assume that you are a reasonable intelligent person but apparently you are so
> >blinded by your own bias and hatred that you are incapable of rational civil discourse and when
> >your honest answer to a question threatens your smug self-righteousness you start throwing mud so
> >to respond in

>
> Bob, I'm tired of always being told by the apologists to suck-it-up. That dead pedestrians,
> cyclists and now kids playing in front of their homes are the cost of doing business and you'd
> better get used to it. While we consistently see the ones ultimately responsible for their deaths,
> the drivers, are routinely given misdemeanor charges and freedom to continue. . .for the sake of
> the economy.
>
> Carbon-monoxide poisoning is reportedly painless. I was being humane.
 
On 4 Feb 2004 16:53:12 -0800, [email protected] (Bill Meredith) wrote:

>> My accusation remains the same, I blame the mores of a car-sick society that accepts the daily
>> death toll.

>You have to laugh at people like the above. Sorry if a child run or bike out in front of a moving
>car/van/truck without warning it is not the driver fault, be that driver license or not.

In a survey of fatal crashes involving cars and child pedestrians in the UK, it was found that the
child pedestrian was four times more likely to take avoiding action than the driver.

The problem with kids, though, is that however much we expect them to employ adult judgement they
continue to behave like kids. One reason why seriously traffic calmed "home zones" are a good idea.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
 
"Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> On 4 Feb 2004 16:53:12 -0800, [email protected] (Bill Meredith) wrote:
>
> >> My accusation remains the same, I blame the mores of a car-sick society that accepts the daily
> >> death toll.
>
> >You have to laugh at people like the above. Sorry if a child run or bike out in front of a moving
> >car/van/truck without warning it is not the driver fault, be that driver license or not.
>
> In a survey of fatal crashes involving cars and child pedestrians in the UK, it was found that the
> child pedestrian was four times more likely to take avoiding action than the driver.

Four times or even more:

---
. . . this phenomena is realised is given by Malek et al (1990). They initially cite well
established work suggesting that in 90% of child pedestrian accidents the children have
attempted some kind of evasive manoeuvre, yet in only 10% of accidents has the driver attempted
any evasive manoeuvre. They go on to report evidence suggesting that when drivers attempt some
kind of defensive manoeuvre, there is strong evidence that the accident severity is reduced even
if not avoided.

See http://www.radstats.org.uk/no079/hewson.htm

The reference is to this study: Malek, M., B. Guyer and I. Lescohier (1990), "The epidemiology and
prevention of child pedestrian injury", Accident Analysis and Prevention 22(4):301 - 313 Abstract
at: http://www.kidsandtraffic.mq.edu.au/bibliography/139.htm
---

This study finds that drivers take minimal evasive action to avoid striking pedestrians:

Howarth CI. Interactions Between Drivers and Pedestrians: Some New Approaches to Pedestrian Safety.
Human Behavior and Traffic Safety. New York, NY: Plenum Press; 1995: 171-188.

This study finds that 23% of drivers on a college campus coming up to a stop sign with a crosswalk
stopped before crosswalk, and the percentage improved to only 53% when there was a person in the
crosswalk:

DeVeauuse N, Kim K, Peek-Asa C, McArthur D, Kraus J. Journal of the American College of Health 1999
May; 47 (6): 269-274.

The "obvious" conclusion from these kinds of studies is that motorists think they own the road and
pedestrians should get out of the way. Or that cars are so much higher on the pecking order than
pedestrians that motorists don't spend a lot of time keeping an eye out for them--they basically
expect to pedestrians to keep out of their way and if they don't, too bad for them.

As usual, I'm not making this up--I leave that chore to others:

---
By far the most pernicious example of risky legal driving concerns children. Howarth (1985) noted
that drivers behave as though it is the child's responsibility to avoid the collision. Evans (1991)
states that:

"If drivers adopted safer driving practices...such a behaviour change would spare large
numbers...the burden of having to claim, with legal correctness, that the six year old child was
killed because it was the child's fault." p.157

See http://www.drivers.com/article/327
---

I'm sure, though, that there are other explanations for this kind of driving behavior. I'll look
forward to hearing them. ;)

One of them, of course, is that our roads ARE designed for cars and not for people. Maybe that means
we need to design our roads a different way . . .

--Brent

bhugh [at] mwsc.edu www.MoBikeFed.org
 
Bernie wrote:

> I've got to give the friendly wave to the professional semi-trailer drivers out there. They do
> such a good job, in my opinion. Most of my experience is cycling on city streets. A few of those
> are designated truck routes, and I usually ride them every day. My experience is, the tractor
> trailer drivers are simply professional drivers. They communicate with lights and noise, they
> (rarely) squeeze the cyclist, and are predictable in their moves. I like them!
>
> Straight truck drivers, OTOH, mainly need to go back to school - just one person's opinion ;) .
> They far too often drive like what they are: poorly educated wannabees.

I agree with the above. On a recent long tour, we noted that semi drivers were quite courteous
and friendly.

We took to waving at semi drivers. I think that may have had a positive effect. We got many friendly
waves, flashes of headlights, and much good treatement in return. And it's worth remembering that
those guys are in constant communication with each other via CB radio, so treating one nicely
probably pays dividends.

Really, most of them are probably guys who like the open road and who don't get a lot of person-to-
person contact. A friendly wave is probably welcome.

Local truck drivers are not generally as competent or pleasant, in my experience.

--
Frank Krygowski [To reply, omit what's between "at" and "cc"]
 
frkrygow <"frkrygow"@omitcc.ysu.edu> wrote:
: I agree with the above. On a recent long tour, we noted that semi drivers were quite courteous and
: friendly.

the people on my trip who really stood out as being friendly were the harley biker folk. they
would query if i needed help when i was fixing flats on the side of the road in the middle of
nowhere, were always friendly and talkative at gas stations, would often give the biker wave and
in one case a lady pulled over and put a ding-dong (hey, it's the thought that counts) in the the
road up ahead for me.

.. that won my heart.
--
david reuteler [email protected]
 
[email protected] (Brent Hugh) wrote in message news:<[email protected]>...
> "Just zis Guy, you know?" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > On 4 Feb 2004 16:53:12 -0800, [email protected] (Bill Meredith) wrote:
> >
> > >> My accusation remains the same, I blame the mores of a car-sick society that accepts the
> > >> daily death toll.
>
> > >You have to laugh at people like the above. Sorry if a child run or bike out in front of a
> > >moving car/van/truck without warning it is not the driver fault, be that driver license or not.
> >
> > In a survey of fatal crashes involving cars and child pedestrians in the UK, it was found that
> > the child pedestrian was four times more likely to take avoiding action than the driver.
>
> Four times or even more:
>
> ---
> . . . this phenomena is realised is given by Malek et al (1990). They initially cite well
> established work suggesting that in 90% of child pedestrian accidents the children have
> attempted some kind of evasive manoeuvre, yet in only 10% of accidents has the driver attempted
> any evasive manoeuvre. They go on to report evidence suggesting that when drivers attempt some
> kind of defensive manoeuvre, there is strong evidence that the accident severity is reduced
> even if not avoided.
>
> See http://www.radstats.org.uk/no079/hewson.htm
>
> The reference is to this study: Malek, M., B. Guyer and I. Lescohier (1990), "The epidemiology and
> prevention of child pedestrian injury", Accident Analysis and Prevention 22(4):301 - 313 Abstract
> at: http://www.kidsandtraffic.mq.edu.au/bibliography/139.htm
> ---
>
> This study finds that drivers take minimal evasive action to avoid striking pedestrians:
>
> Howarth CI. Interactions Between Drivers and Pedestrians: Some New Approaches to Pedestrian
> Safety. Human Behavior and Traffic Safety. New York, NY: Plenum Press; 1995: 171-188.
>
>
> This study finds that 23% of drivers on a college campus coming up to a stop sign with a crosswalk
> stopped before crosswalk, and the percentage improved to only 53% when there was a person in the
> crosswalk:
>
> DeVeauuse N, Kim K, Peek-Asa C, McArthur D, Kraus J. Journal of the American College of Health
> 1999 May; 47 (6): 269-274.
>
>
> The "obvious" conclusion from these kinds of studies is that motorists think they own the road and
> pedestrians should get out of the way. Or that cars are so much higher on the pecking order than
> pedestrians that motorists don't spend a lot of time keeping an eye out for them--they basically
> expect to pedestrians to keep out of their way and if they don't, too bad for them.
>
> As usual, I'm not making this up--I leave that chore to others:
>
> ---
> By far the most pernicious example of risky legal driving concerns children. Howarth (1985) noted
> that drivers behave as though it is the child's responsibility to avoid the collision. Evans
> (1991) states that:
>
> "If drivers adopted safer driving practices...such a behaviour change would spare large
> numbers...the burden of having to claim, with legal correctness, that the six year old child was
> killed because it was the child's fault." p.157

What nosnense, parents,grandparents and other citizens become uncaring children killers when they
get behind the wheels of evil cars!

I would guess that even cyclists, such as myself, become killers, if they are behind the controls of
a car? What interesting studies and conclusion draw from them, can we all say junk sciense together?

Hell I been hit by cars when I cycle and I even hit a gentleman on a bike one morning myself. And as
the study quoted would indicate, I did not take one damn step to avoid hitting him. Of course the
reason for that is I did no see him, as he was running with no lights and in the wrong direction,
before dawn, on a road I was turning into.

Of course by the thinking of such fools, it is my fault as I was the driver, and the facts that the
man was riding the wrong way and with no lights, is beside the point!

If a child or anyone else run out in front of a car without any warning, there is little anyone can
do given normal reaction times, except for hitting the brake after the inpact. Of course that go for
anything that move from a five mile long train to a man on a bike himself.

Bill Meredith



>
> See http://www.drivers.com/article/327
> ---
>
> I'm sure, though, that there are other explanations for this kind of driving behavior. I'll look
> forward to hearing them. ;)
>
> One of them, of course, is that our roads ARE designed for cars and not for people. Maybe that
> means we need to design our roads a different way . . .
>
> --Brent
>
> bhugh [at] mwsc.edu www.MoBikeFed.org
 
On 8 Feb 2004 03:33:29 -0800, [email protected] (Bill Meredith) wrote in
message <[email protected]>:

>What nosnense, parents,grandparents and other citizens become uncaring children killers when they
>get behind the wheels of evil cars!

Pretty much.

>I would guess that even cyclists, such as myself, become killers, if they are behind the controls
>of a car?

Pretty much.

>What interesting studies and conclusion draw from them,

Check the death rates on the roads: 40,000 a year in the US I think?

>Hell I been hit by cars when I cycle and I even hit a gentleman on a bike one morning myself. And
>as the study quoted would indicate, I did not take one damn step to avoid hitting him. Of course
>the reason for that is I did no see him, as he was running with no lights and in the wrong
>direction, before dawn, on a road I was turning into.

Please note: I think riding a bike at night without lights is stupid, and riding on the wrong side
of the road is even more stupid. And I'm damned glad it wasn't me driving, because I bet I would
have hit the guy too.

But...

The advice is "always drive so you can stop well within the distance you can see to be clear." At
least it is over here in Blighty, and I'm pretty sure you'll have a similar statement somewhere in
your guidance too.

Not "clear of things with lights" or even "clear of things painted white with reflectors on them" or
"clear of things moving away from you" but "clear".

Not "just within" or "so you don't hit too hard" but "well within."

Are you completely confident that you bear absolutely no responsibility for this crash, measuring
your driving against these criteria? If it had been a loose animal, would it have been the
animal's fault?

And I repeat for the avoidance of doubt: the rider in question is a clueless numpty and I fart in
his general direction.

Guy
===
May contain traces of irony. Contents liable to settle after posting.
http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk
 
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