ebay listings, Cinelli vs. Masi

[G.T.]

Phil, Non-Squid wrote:
> Jay Beattie wrote:
>> On Apr 13, 7:57 pm, "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>> "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>>>>> On Apr 13, 8:39 am, [email protected] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>>>>>>> [email protected] writes:
>>>>>>>> Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa
>>>>>>>> sold a few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit
>>>>>>>> was placed on a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?
>>>>>>> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about
>>>>>>> a 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard
>>>>>>> others - people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that
>>>>>>> the smaller masi's have a very harsh ride.
>>>>>>> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds
>>>>>>> that of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the
>>>>>>> rarity.
>>>>>> To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator.
>>>>>> I would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the
>>>>>> '70s had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be
>>>>>> comfortable for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not
>>>>>> withstanding the constant chatter that weight means nothing, it
>>>>>> does.
>>>>> It doesn't unless you're carrying your bike.
>>>> Or if you're climbing.
>>> Ok, I should have qualified that.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Weight matters. It's just that the vast majority of us could lose
>>>> the weight off our bodies and be way ahead of the game, compared to
>>>> spending hundreds or thousands of dollars to save a pound of bike
>>>> weight.
>>>> We also exaggerate how much weight matters. I notice the difference
>>>> with 15 pounds in a saddlebag on a bike tour- my average speeds are
>>>> 1-2 mph lower over rolling terrain and I am much more tired at the
>>>> end of the ride than usual. But I don't notice a difference of 1
>>>> pound. In fact I'm not sure where that threshold is.
>>> My Camelbak varies by up to 4 pounds not counting the water, never
>>> notice a difference in average speeds or my ability to get up hills.
>>> Other factors affect my rides much more than my pack or bike weight.
>> I think tire dimension and inflation have a greater effect on ride
>> quality than minor differences in frame or equipment weight. I also
>> find it hard to climb on bikes that are limber in the front end
>> because I like to climb out of the saddle. With that said, my '70s SP
>> 63cm racing bike with NR equipment was noticeably heavier and harder
>> to ride up hill than my current Cannondale racing bike, which is
>> probably three pounds lighter. Both bikes are similarly stiff (one
>> forgets how stiff SP is/was). I think three pounds on a skinny-tire
>> bike makes a difference on long climbs -- all other things being
>> equal.-- Jay Beattie.
>
> Lightweights like me really notice weight differences right off the bat,
> esp. for MTB due to the rolling terrain... Being able to surmount
> off-camber obstacles at a steep grade is much easier, or just plain doable
> for that matter.

How much do you weigh? 30 lbs?

Greg

--
The ticketbastard Tax Tracker:
http://www.ticketmastersucks.org/tracker.html

Dethink to survive - Mclusky

 

[Phil, Non-Squid]

G.T. wrote:
> Phil, Non-Squid wrote:
>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>> On Apr 13, 7:57 pm, "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>> "Tim McNamara" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:[email protected]...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> In article <[email protected]>,
>>>>> "G.T." <[email protected]> wrote:
>>>>>> Jay Beattie wrote:
>>>>>>> On Apr 13, 8:39 am, [email protected] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>>>>>>>> [email protected] writes:
>>>>>>>>> Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super
>>>>>>>>> Corsa sold a few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a
>>>>>>>>> single bit was placed on a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting
>>>>>>>>> at $4,900?
>>>>>>>> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk
>>>>>>>> about a 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also
>>>>>>>> heard others - people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say
>>>>>>>> that the smaller masi's have a very harsh ride.
>>>>>>>> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds
>>>>>>>> that of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects
>>>>>>>> the rarity.
>>>>>>> To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a
>>>>>>> curator. I would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian
>>>>>>> frames of the '70s had short top tubes in the large sizes and
>>>>>>> would not be comfortable for me now. They also weighed a ton,
>>>>>>> and not withstanding the constant chatter that weight means
>>>>>>> nothing, it does.
>>>>>> It doesn't unless you're carrying your bike.
>>>>> Or if you're climbing.
>>>> Ok, I should have qualified that.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Weight matters. It's just that the vast majority of us could lose
>>>>> the weight off our bodies and be way ahead of the game, compared
>>>>> to spending hundreds or thousands of dollars to save a pound of
>>>>> bike weight.
>>>>> We also exaggerate how much weight matters. I notice the
>>>>> difference with 15 pounds in a saddlebag on a bike tour- my
>>>>> average speeds are 1-2 mph lower over rolling terrain and I am
>>>>> much more tired at the end of the ride than usual. But I don't
>>>>> notice a difference of 1 pound. In fact I'm not sure where that
>>>>> threshold is.
>>>> My Camelbak varies by up to 4 pounds not counting the water, never
>>>> notice a difference in average speeds or my ability to get up
>>>> hills. Other factors affect my rides much more than my pack or
>>>> bike weight.
>>> I think tire dimension and inflation have a greater effect on ride
>>> quality than minor differences in frame or equipment weight. I also
>>> find it hard to climb on bikes that are limber in the front end
>>> because I like to climb out of the saddle. With that said, my '70s
>>> SP 63cm racing bike with NR equipment was noticeably heavier and
>>> harder to ride up hill than my current Cannondale racing bike,
>>> which is probably three pounds lighter. Both bikes are similarly
>>> stiff (one forgets how stiff SP is/was). I think three pounds on a
>>> skinny-tire bike makes a difference on long climbs -- all other
>>> things being equal.-- Jay Beattie.
>>
>> Lightweights like me really notice weight differences right off the
>> bat, esp. for MTB due to the rolling terrain... Being able to
>> surmount off-camber obstacles at a steep grade is much easier, or
>> just plain doable for that matter.
>
> How much do you weigh? 30 lbs?

Close.

--
Phil

 

[Road Man]

"Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 13, 8:39 am, [email protected] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>> [email protected] writes:
>> >Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa
>> >sold a
>> >few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was
>> >placed on
>> >a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?
>>
>> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
>> 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard
>> others -
>> people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
>> masi's have a very harsh ride.
>>
>> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds
>> that
>> of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the
>> rarity.
>
> To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator. I
> would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the '70s
> had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be comfortable
> for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not withstanding the
> constant chatter that weight means nothing, it does.
>
> As for Cinelli and magic carpet rides, etc., I wouldn't know because
> I
> never rode one, but I always thought they looked clunky. I much
> preferred the look of the De Rosa, Masi and even Colnago -- which
> got
> pretty trashy at the end of the '70s, early 80s. My ride in the
> '70s
> was a custom made knock-off of a Gran Criterium, which I resurrected
> as a commuter (after rebrazing it for the third time). You know
> what,
> it was a boat anchor and the top tube was too short for me know.
> Thank God it broke again. I much prefer my Cannondale cross bike. --
> Jay Beattie.
>
>
>
>
>
Am I reading between the lines too much, or do you have a low opinion
of Masi because your non-Masi knock-off frame required unusual
repairs?

As far as "boat anchors" go, my Masi weighs a bit less than 21 pounds.
For what I can sell it for, I can get a modern comfy carbon bike (such
as a a Roubaix) that weighs around 5 pounds less. But both will sink
in a lake and catch on lakebed debris, meaning they are both effective
as boat anchors.

Ken

 

[Road Man]

"Qui si parla Campagnolo" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> On Apr 13, 9:39 am, [email protected] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>> [email protected] writes:
>> >Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa
>> >sold a
>> >few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was
>> >placed on
>> >a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?
>>
>> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
>> 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard
>> others -
>> people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
>> masi's have a very harsh ride.
>>
>> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds
>> that
>> of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the
>> rarity.
>>
>> - Don Gillies
>
> Don't think CA Masis ever had a Grand Criterium tho-could be wrong.
> GC
> were Italian models only.
>

I thought California Masis are all Gran Criteriums least through 1980,
if they're roadies and not trackies.

Ken

 

[A Muzi]

>> [email protected] writes:
>>> Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa sold a
>>> few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was placed on
>>> a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?

> [email protected] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
>> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
>> 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard others -
>> people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
>> masi's have a very harsh ride.
>> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds that
>> of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the rarity.

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
> Don't think CA Masis ever had a Grand Criterium tho-could be wrong. GC
> were Italian models only.

One of our staff left to become one of Faliero's staff at the CA
startup. Before the 3V, they made Gran Criteriums for about ten years
there. We sold a boatload of them - nice bikes.

(Masi/California also made forks for Graftek! Note a small "MC" under
the fork. The rest of the Graftek forks were from Ike Safter.)

p.s. Don is probably right about the numbers
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Michael Press]

In article
<[email protected]>,
"Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote:

> I think tire dimension and inflation have a greater effect on ride
> quality than minor differences in frame or equipment weight. I also
> find it hard to climb on bikes that are limber in the front end
> because I like to climb out of the saddle. With that said, my '70s SP
> 63cm racing bike with NR equipment was noticeably heavier and harder
> to ride up hill than my current Cannondale racing bike, which is
> probably three pounds lighter. Both bikes are similarly stiff (one
> forgets how stiff SP is/was). I think three pounds on a skinny-tire
> bike makes a difference on long climbs -- all other things being
> equal

I maintain a pet theory that this comment lends support for. That
bicycle weight counts more than rider weight. Bicycle weight is
dead weight. Rider weight can be thrown around by our muscles and
we can choose when that weight is moved uphill. TIA for not
laughing.

--
Michael Press

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
Michael Press <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article
> <[email protected]>,
> "Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > I think tire dimension and inflation have a greater effect on ride
> > quality than minor differences in frame or equipment weight. I also
> > find it hard to climb on bikes that are limber in the front end
> > because I like to climb out of the saddle. With that said, my '70s SP
> > 63cm racing bike with NR equipment was noticeably heavier and harder
> > to ride up hill than my current Cannondale racing bike, which is
> > probably three pounds lighter. Both bikes are similarly stiff (one
> > forgets how stiff SP is/was). I think three pounds on a skinny-tire
> > bike makes a difference on long climbs -- all other things being
> > equal
>
> I maintain a pet theory that this comment lends support for. That
> bicycle weight counts more than rider weight. Bicycle weight is
> dead weight. Rider weight can be thrown around by our muscles and
> we can choose when that weight is moved uphill. TIA for not
> laughing.

I'm not laughing, but you're still wrong.

I think it's fair to say that you notice bike weight more, because as
you move a bike laterally (think high-effort situations) you can feel
the bike's weight as you roll.

Unfortunately, it's not slowing you down as much as the fact that you
have very little power.

Psychological differences may be placebo effects, but placebos work.

I think the big problem with your theory is that there's a strong
perceivable difference in two bikes 3 pounds different in weight (since
that's around a 10-15% difference), but there's relatively little
performance difference.

The open question is how well you ride when you're three pounds lighter
than you are now.

For myself, I'm now in the ugly situation of being my bike's weight
above my personal ideal weight,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

 

[still me]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:15:10 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]>
wrote:

>For myself, I'm now in the ugly situation of being my bike's weight
>above my personal ideal weight,

your bike weighs more than you?

 

[Jay Beattie]

On Apr 15, 1:02 pm, "Road Man" <[email protected]> wrote:
> "Jay Beattie" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:[email protected]...
>
>
>
> > On Apr 13, 8:39 am, [email protected] (Donald Gillies) wrote:
> >> [email protected] writes:
> >> >Did anyone notice that while a lightly used Cinelli Super Corsa
> >> >sold a
> >> >few weeks ago for something like $6,200 not a single bit was
> >> >placed on
> >> >a NOS Masi Gran Criterium starting at $4,900?
>
> >> This is not too surprising. I have heard many people talk about a
> >> 'magic carpet ride' on a classiccinelli. i have also heard
> >> others -
> >> people who have ridden hundreds of masi's - say that the smaller
> >> masi's have a very harsh ride.
>
> >> And again, production of the California MASI's probably exceeds
> >> that
> >> of Cinelli supercorsas, and so the higher price reflects the
> >> rarity.
>
> > To me "collecting" a bike is creepy. I don't want to be a curator. I
> > would only buy one to ride it, and those Italian frames of the '70s
> > had short top tubes in the large sizes and would not be comfortable
> > for me now. They also weighed a ton, and not withstanding the
> > constant chatter that weight means nothing, it does.
>
> > As for Cinelli and magic carpet rides, etc., I wouldn't know because
> > I
> > never rode one, but I always thought they looked clunky. I much
> > preferred the look of the De Rosa, Masi and even Colnago -- which
> > got
> > pretty trashy at the end of the '70s, early 80s. My ride in the
> > '70s
> > was a custom made knock-off of a Gran Criterium, which I resurrected
> > as a commuter (after rebrazing it for the third time). You know
> > what,
> > it was a boat anchor and the top tube was too short for me know.
> > Thank God it broke again. I much prefer my Cannondale cross bike. --
> > Jay Beattie.
>
> Am I reading between the lines too much, or do you have a low opinion
> of Masi because your non-Masi knock-off frame required unusual
> repairs?

I have a very high opinion of Masi -- and De Rosa and early Conago,
and my custom-built knock-off frame by Dale Saso was as good as any of
them. BTW, I broke other steel frames, and my repairs on the Masi-
clone were not "unusual" for me. I have also broken three aluminum
frames -- but I got warranty replacements and did not fix them.

What I was saying is that I would not pay $4K (or $6K) for a 30 year
old production steel bike just because it was collectible or cool
looking. I could not justify spending that kind of money just to own
a bike which, if fitted with collectible retro-components, would be
less comfortable and considerably heavier than my current bike. I
guess I am not sentimental when it comes to bikes. -- Jay Beattie.

 

[A Muzi]

> On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:15:10 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>> For myself, I'm now in the ugly situation of being my bike's weight
>> above my personal ideal weight,

still me wrote:
> your bike weighs more than you?

He is 18~20 pounds over 'race weight' right now.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

 

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
A Muzi <[email protected]> wrote:

> > On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 08:15:10 GMT, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]>
> > wrote:
> >> For myself, I'm now in the ugly situation of being my bike's weight
> >> above my personal ideal weight,
>
> still me wrote:
> > your bike weighs more than you?
>
> He is 18~20 pounds over 'race weight' right now.

Yeah. Actually, I'm closing on being my mountain bike's weight over my
personal ideal weight.

Trying to find a way to make my bicycle 20 pounds lighter,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos